Welcome, Guest. Please Login
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
  Please visit the Announcements forum and read the updated Forum Rules.
  HomeHelpSearchMember MapLogin ASSRA HomePage  
 
 
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print
Duplex (Read 8475 times)
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Duplex
Nov 18th, 2006 at 6:29pm
 
I'm pretty new to this websight, but I have not noticed any posts on duplexing black with smokeless; is there a reason for that?  grapeshot
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
james a pickup
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 366

richardson,tx, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #1 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 6:58pm
 
lots of person's for some reason seem to thing it's unsafe, however i've shot literaly thousands of duplex rounds in my trapdoor 45-70 and i'm still here. I usually use about 10% of the charge with 4759 or 4227, and about 1/8" compression, burns clean and shoots good, too. I live in Southern California and it really doesn't matter what lube you use out here, the air is so dry most of the time that you have to clean every shot if you use straight black powder.I'm saying a blow tube will work back east where it's 90% humanity, but out here it's 10%(and sometimes lower), forget it. I've ruined more than one rifle cleaning it every shot, i wore out the muzzle. Some rifles like the trapdoor and the martini you can't clean from the breech, so i use a duplex load. With duplex, i clean every tenth shot.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #2 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 7:23pm
 
I use duplex loads in any black powder match that allows it. R7 works good for me. I get awefull tired of dealing with the mess of straight black. I like shooting breech muzzle loaders. Its no fun at all trying to load one with straight black, especially when trying to keep up with the smokeless shooters. I usually wind up being a black blackpowder shooter at the end of the day. Which reminds me of golf. All the frustration, greif, but still clean at the end of the day. And I can throw a club if I want to. Did the old time shooters use duplex loads?   Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #3 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 7:30pm
 
I agree--I've been shooting duplex loads for over 35 years with no problems.  However, I know of several and have witnessed a few misshaps with reduced smokeless loads.  grapeshot
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #4 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 7:36pm
 
Joe--- You ask if the old timers duplexed?  Harry Pope sold many duplex powder measures to somebody!  You bet they did!  grapeshot
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Brent
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When lead is in the air,
hope is in my heart ~MWH

Posts: 1142

Re: Duplex
Reply #5 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 7:45pm
 
grapeshot, I have duplexed and I also consider it a bit more unsafe than I really like.  But that is not why I quit.  I realized that there was just no place for it in my hunting and shooting.  If I can't cope with black, then I can just shoot pure smokeless.  Might as well buy a bolt action as well and shoot copper coated bullets while I'm at it.

I don't however, because I like the traditional aspect of pure black loading.  I see no reason for smokeless anymore and other than my .22 rimfires, I do not shoot smokeless at all. Not for bird hunting, big game hunting or target competition.  I don't really care what Harry did.  He was shooting for money and would probably have used a Remington model 700 in 6mm BR if one had existed back then. 

In my book, duplexing is a solution to a problem that does not exist.

Brent
Back to top
 

When lead is in the air, hope is in my heart ~MWH
WWW  
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #6 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 8:21pm
 
Brent,  What is the title of your book? I'd like to read it. I think duplex loads are the best thing since peanutbutter. Im sticken to that. joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #7 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 8:35pm
 
Brent, My last post sounds like sarcasm. Sorry about that. Was not meant that way. I read your post again. Sometimes the data gets scrambled in my head. Scrambled egg head.     Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #8 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 8:45pm
 
Well, the problem is fairly simple for me.  For instance, take an old original hiwall chambered for a large black powder case.   If you don't care for the mess of black but you want to shoot it, you try reduced loads of smokeless.  In a cartridge such as a 40/90ss this can be very challenging as well as dangerous.  You will find that you can develop a duplex load that not only eliminates the mess but it enables the  old hiwall to achieve tighter groups than you ever got with straight black  or reduced smokeless.  grapeshot
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #9 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 9:01pm
 
I couldnt agree more. Ive had more case seperations with straight black than duplex. My brass lasts a lot longer too. Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 73

Re: Duplex
Reply #10 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 9:36pm
 
Mr. Grapeshot & Mr. Westerner,

  I'll go along with Brent.
  Also I don't see where you're getting short case life shooting BP. I've shot literally hundreds of rounds through even nickel cases with no problems. Case separations? What's that? Never heard of it shooting BP. Well, I have but only from people who don't know how to handle it, apparently. When clued in they have no problems. Maybe though our brass isn't as good as those balloon head cases they used over a 100 yrs. ago. Sorry for the sarcasm! As for accuracy being better with smokeless. Hate to burst your bubbles, so I won't. As for the old timers duplexing? Yes they did. Only they reversed the process and used small charges of BP since the early smokeless powders were very hard to ignite. Also the reason modern primers are not really suited for BP. To strong! Always got a kick out of the fad a few years back where everybody was using magnum primers.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #11 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 10:20pm
 
abcd--- Go ahead and burst my accuracy bubble. I'd like to hear it.   I have spent many years and many thousands of rounds making this bubble.  It didn't just fall off the turnip truck.  grapeshot
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Brent
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When lead is in the air,
hope is in my heart ~MWH

Posts: 1142

Re: Duplex
Reply #12 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 10:52pm
 
I have never got better accuracy from smokeless. In fact it was worse.  Considerably worse.  Another good reason to quit, though I do believe that good accuracy is possible.  I just didn't find it. And then I quit because I realized I was loosing the one thing I was looking for - tradition.  Why own a Sharps or a Winchester or a Ballard or whatever and then shoot smokeless?  For me, it just does not compute.

My guess is that if you can make it shoot smokeless or duplex, you can also make it shoot bp just as well.  Might take some work if you haven't messed with bp much though.  In the meantime, I have heard of powders made expressly for your situation.  I have never used them so I can't comment. 

I can say however, that the "mess" of black is far far over rated.  I find it to be not messy at all.  In a BPCR it is a piece of cake to deal with.  Muzzleloaders slightly more involved, but not a lot.  To me, a quality shooting experience is easily worth it. 

Brent
Back to top
 

When lead is in the air, hope is in my heart ~MWH
WWW  
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #13 - Nov 18th, 2006 at 11:58pm
 
Ive never seperated a 45/70 case with blackpowder or a 40/50 SS. Both of which I've shot thousands of rounds through. The 38/55 and 32/40 are a different story. In these I've seperated a lot of them trying to get good loads with straight black. Duplex loads work much better. Ive shot the 40/65 a lot, Not too many failures there and when they did fail it was because the brass was just plain wore out. I remember Grapeshot shooting over forty rounds in a silhouette match using duplex loads In Denver without ever cleaning the barrel, in the summer. I beleive he won that match. I think he was using a Hepburn with in 40/65. About 1985. hows my memory Jay?  I think anyone who says they havent seperated a case using black powder has not shot much of it or has been using a big bore rifle exclusively. Did you ever run out of that taurex lube you were using  Jay?       Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #14 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 8:55am
 
Joe--- Your old gray matter is still working good.....and yes I still have some  Taurak 250 left.  Want some?  I can spare a little!  grapeshot
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #15 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 9:21am
 
If I remember right, that Taurak stuff worked pretty good in the hot weather. I'll pass since we dont get much heat up here. Everybody went to bed last night so I had the forum to myself. Went a little wild with the( duplex load of champions) posts. It was fun though. Got my typers all limbered up. Do you still have the hepburn you used in the silhouette matches? Ron tells me you got into the 40/50 SS heavy. Ive been meaning to call you and pick your brain about that caliber. Might just do it right here on the forum.     Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #16 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 9:40am
 
No, the old Hepburn is gone...an offer I couldn't refuse!  But that's right, I have been playing with both 40/50ss and 40/50bn of late. Way fun!  The 40/50ss is a badger and the 40/50bn is a blank I got from SPG  and chambered and fit up to another 'wall.  Both 'walls  shoot great.   At this point the bottle neck gets the slight edge on accuracy.  grapeshot
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #17 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 9:54am
 
Ive got a #9 Ballard all original in 40/50 SS. I've done a lot of shooting with it. Ten pound rifle and a three pound trigger is a challenge. The bore measures .410. Can't chamber that size bullet. The chambers too small. Ive done some goofy things making it shoot. I didnt want to Open up the chamber on a original gun. I had a 1881 marlin in 40/65 that was made the same way. I was hoping you had some experience  along those lines. The marlin went the way of your Hepburn.   Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #18 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 10:52am
 
I also had an 1881 Marlin in 40/60 with a tight chamber.  The groove dia. was .413.   It was a deluxe pistol grip dst number with a pristine bore.  I got that rascal to shoot very well by reaming the case mouths and sizing the bullets so they would just fit a fired and reamed case.  The bullets were still under size but with 30 to 1 alloy, they upset just fine and did not gas cut.  A major factor, I'm sure was the 1/8" teflon wad I was using.  I also used a duplex load with R-7.  This gun has also gone the way of the wild goose.   grapeshot
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #19 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 10:58am
 
Joe, how did you make the 40/50ss #9 Ballard shoot?  grapeshot
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #20 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 11:34am
 
Jay, My#9 came with reamed shells. When I tried to load them they were so thin they would colapse trying to seat the bullets. I made new shells from 30/40 brass. Loaded them the usual way then removed the decapping pin from my FL die and ran them through that. That squeezed um down so I could get them in the gun. Beleive it or not they shoot very well that way. The other method is to use a soft .403 bullet. It upsets but isnt as accurate as the first load. Also i've taken that same bullet and just drop it in the chamber and breech seat it using a case full of powder and a cork wad on top. That shoots real good too. I havent used duplex in this rifle so far but am sure that will tighten up the groups even more. The load of champions that is. Ive tried four different bullets in it so far. I picked up two molds at Etna green last fall.   Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #21 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 11:45am
 
Jay, Ive got two rifles with Badger barrels. they are very accurate. Not 40's though. Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 73

Re: Duplex
Reply #22 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 12:16pm
 
Mr. Grapeshot,
  Not calling you a liar or anything as I suspect you're telling the truth about not getting any accuracy with BP. Most will say the same thing! Just means you haven't explored all the possibilities. You don't mention whether this lack of accuracy is due to shooting fixed or breech seated ammo, or even if you're using a ML'er. Each has a different way of approaching the problem. Of course we also have to take into account what you consider accuracy. An average 5 or 10 shot group at 100 yds. that goes sub 1 MOA. Would that do? That's not to hard with either black or smokeless. I see the BP record for the WSU 5 shot 100 yd. group is less than 1/2". I emailed the holder and he said that it was shot along with a series of experimental loads and all five groups in the series averaged under an inch. This included one powder charge, two bullet alloys. Something else was used to but I forget what it was. This with an original Schoyen-Ballard that he said had some "problems". Not many SS rifles will do that even with smokeless on a regular basis.

Mr. Westerner,
  You're right about .32/40 cases separating. Haven't seen or heard of it with .38/55 cases till you mentioned it. Again it's how you handle the loading procedure. That solution has been discussed on here by Mr. GWarden, I believe, in the past so guess it doesn't need to be repeated. I had the same problem until I saw the solution. Brand new cases would separate in as little as two firings. Since I have fired one case at least a 100 times with no problems. Primer pockets starting to get a little loose. One solution I haven't seen discussed here, that I used before Mr. GWardens solution, is to use a .38/55 case. The nice thing about that is that the sizing stretches the case out to almost exactly SAAMI spec. for the .32/40, so they work in original chambers without the neck collapsing on ocassion or blowback.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #23 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 5:26pm
 
Thanks abcd,  Jay, Over the years Ive backed off on the amount of smokeless in my duplex loads. In the 40/65 I used to use about ten grains of R7. some times twelve. I found that five to seven grains worked just as well. In the 32/40 about three and a half max. The 38/55 about the same. Did you have the same experience? Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #24 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 5:31pm
 
abcd--I never said that I couldn't get accuracy with BP, only that I didn't care for the cleaning mess and the wear and tear on the barrel.  I have shot hundreds of pounds of BP over the last 35 years with some good results.  I consider 1moa as a baseline.  I tend to try most of the new wrinkles that seem to show promise.  In most cases I have been able to better my BP results as well as the results of the guys I shoot with using duplex or smokeless.  I have shot a few sub 1/4moa 5 shot groups (100yds) with a Ballard schuetzen breech seating with smokeless.  This same gun shot a 1235  for 50 shots on the 25 ring German target at 200yds. for me back in '86 which stood for 10yrs. as the Coors Schuetzenfest record.  You can look it up.  I'm relieved that you suspect that I might be telling the truth.  grapeshot
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #25 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 5:36pm
 
Joe, Yeah same for me.  Im currently using 8gr R-7 in the 40/65.  Jay
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #26 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 6:24pm
 
These forums can be a little frusrating since we all use these code names or whatever they are. Reminds me of the CB radio days in the seventy's. Tolerance Jay tolerance. I still have the hi wall ron barreled for me. I shot it till 1990. That year I managed to win the midrange match at Tacoma. That was a hotly contested match at the time, drawing shooters from all over the country. I beat Bob Gordon buy one point. Thats when I decided to upgrade everything with canadian style equipment. I shot the hi wall in a 600 yard match about five years ago. It shot excellent, far better than I did. We sure had a lot of fun at the coors matches, I miss those times. Jay, what was the name of the range we shot the critters at? out past Stapelton. Is it still there?   Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 73

Re: Duplex
Reply #27 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 6:35pm
 
Mr. Grapeshot,
  I guess we shoot different games. I shoot Schuetzen and breech seat. With BP I wipe between shots. I have one case to clean. A patch wet with my wiping solution, a dry and then a wet patch of my cleaning solvent and I'm all done cleaning up the BP "mess". If I'm going to store the rifle for a while I'll run another dry patch through and an oiled patch. I use a wool mop to plunge out the case in warm soapy water, rinse, and dry it with an air gun and I'm ready to go to the range again. Now if I have x # of cases to clean the gun gets the same treatment and all the cases do to. Just takes a little longer. Now breech seating with smokeless I always have to soak it down with my cleaning solution, wire brush it out to get rid of the hard fouling, and run two to four wet and dry patches through, maybe more, it depends, and then wet it with a cleaning solution or oil patch. Actually you get right down to it and it takes longer to do a good job cleaning up the mess of smokeless shooting than it does with BP. Now I've shot a few duplex rounds and if you do it right you can shoot almost indefinitely, but you end up having to clean your gun out just as though you'd shot it with smokeless. The hard fouling just in front of the chamber from a more complete burn of the BP sometimes, depending on humidity, can be mighty tough to get out completely.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #28 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 6:43pm
 
Joe, That was the old Watkins range as many referred to it .  I think the actual name was Gateway Rifle Range.  After the Golden Gun Club Range was closed, it became the Golden Gun Club and thats  what it is today.  It just happens to be half way to Kansas now!  Jay
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #29 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 7:07pm
 
abcd-- You are right about cleaning the cases.  That is the biggest pain for me.  You need a wash tub at the end of a big match using fixed ammo.  As far as smokeless breech seating goes, I still use H110 and don't experience hard fouling; the bore just wipes clean.  With duplex in fixed ammo, the Taurak lube that Joe referred to keeps any fouling soft.  It is water soluble and  tends to combine with any residue which also wipes clean.   Who knows,our climate may contribute also.  Jay
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #30 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 7:17pm
 
That whole thing with the golden gun club was crushing. I hate to think about it. I have a zillion pictures of that range. Of most of the shooters also. Was quite the shutterbug back then. I met Charlie Dell there in 85 or 6. I was looking down all the barrels in the racks. When I got to Charlie's Rifle I notice his eyes perk up. He asked me if I knew what kind of barrel it was. At the time I just Knew enough to know it was a Pope. I told him I thought it was a Pope. He could sense I was a green horn. He proceeded to tell me all about Pope barrels, How they were m ade, how many were made. He must have spent a half hour with me. He was a genuinely nice man. There were a lot of shooters like that then. There still around. Jay, are you shooting any matches these days?   Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #31 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 7:27pm
 
Joe-- I remember when Ron did your hiwall.   I always thought it was a great shooter!   Jay      PS Ron was down from Wyo. last week and we spent quite a bit of time together.   He is still weak from his heart attack but I am hopeful that he will be back to building single shots sometime soon.  I doubt that he will ever do as much shooting though.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #32 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 7:46pm
 
Joe, I shoot a lot but not many matches. Steve Garby has been trying to get me up to Cody for a couple or three years.  I'm thinking about trying out the Ballard schuetzen I just built in 38/50 Rem. in their spring match next year. I haven't wrung it out yet but it carries one of Ken's barrels that I've had squirreled away for years.   Yes, those were the glory days in Golden at Coors!   Alas, nothing lasts forever.  Old Charlie was a trip!  Other than Coors I only shot with him one other time and that was at Ashville,NC.  Jay
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #33 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 8:48pm
 
I recommend the Cody match. It should be right up your alley with the wind and weather. Cody is a great getaway also. Beware that Garbe character though. They have a original rifle bench match thats fun. I stopped in on Ron last fall on my way to Kentucky. He was pretty weak. His attitude is good though, he'll be allright.       38/50,    now theres a interesting number. Have always heard good things about it. I have a similar project coming up. Jay, you said you (had) a Darr muzzleloader. What did you do with it? I was thinking maybe its the one i'm having rerifled. The one I have is stamped Darr but the rifling didnt resemble any of the Darr barrels Ive seen. This one was lefthand twist 16 inch, eight groove that looks more like ken's rifling. Very thin lands. It wouldnt shoot due to a ring at the muzzle and three rings at the breech. At 200 yards I could keep them on the paper. Was .33/47.                                                         Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #34 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 10:08pm
 
Joe, the one I had was 33/47 left hand also, fit up to a hiwall.  The dead giveaway was that the pin holes for the false muzzle were one flat off.  Barry's goof!  I bought it from Barry in the mid 1980's.   Later on Barry sent me his stamp and I stamped it myself.  I ruined the barrel experimenting with boat tails....throat erosion.  I sold it but if it's the same, someone added the rings.   Too bad though because it showed promise.  Being a lefty myself, I never liked the way the stock recoiled away from my face with the left hand twist.  This was no doubt one of the reason Pope liked it being right handed.  Jay
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
grapeshot
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 77

Re: Duplex
Reply #35 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 10:15pm
 
Joe-- You're also right about keeping an eye on that Garbe character!He'll sneak up on you and kick your butt and not even feel bad!  Jay
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #36 - Nov 19th, 2006 at 10:33pm
 
That sounds like the barrel i've got. It doesnt matter how the pins are arranged. As long as the dovetail is set back to miss the pin. I did the same thing on my Green mountain barrel.  I'll have to call Dan when he gets home from hunting. Its gonna drive me nutts till I know! I got it from Bill Crane who got it from Tommy Mason. I dont like the left hand twist because it screws me up in the wind.  The barrel is being  recut to .35. Steve is having one done to .35 also. He has a new reamer, but I'm not sure yet about using it since mine will be a ML.  I have some reamers that might just work. I'll figure it out when I get the barrel Back. Maybe, if I get it done this winter It'd be ready for Cody. Be fun to play with anyway. I should have the new mold this week.   Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
Jim_Borton
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 445

Tipp City, Ohio, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #37 - Nov 20th, 2006 at 12:22am
 
Darrs have 7 grooves
Back to top
 

Hugs & Kisses
ASSRA life
NRA life
NMLRA life
CBA MEMBER
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #38 - Nov 20th, 2006 at 1:10am
 
Hello Jim, I went out in the shop after I read your post. I have a barrel on the bench stamped B Darr. It has eight grooves. The previous owner swears up and down its a Darr barrel. Ive looked at a half dozen so called B Darr barrels, every one is different. So, I dont know if Ive ever seen a real Darr barrel. Did people stamp barry's name on um to sellum?  Joe.     ps the one on my bench is .40 cal.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
DonH
Ex Member
***



Re: Duplex
Reply #39 - Nov 20th, 2006 at 5:35am
 
Just reading back over this thread. Interesting! While I fall short of the  years of experience of some you I'll offer some comment. First while there is some additional cleanup associated with shooting black powder in cartridges I hardly call it a "mess" and what there is relates strictly to cleaning the cases. Second, there are more than an few of topnotch BPCR shooters in the Southwest who beg to differ on being able to make it work. Is it easier to make it work with duplex loads? Unquestionable! But if one chooses to shoot in a discipline where straight black is requuired then one must figure it out. It is not as easy as with smokeless but the challenge for me is to see if I can do it as well as the oldtimers.

Check out the winning 200 yd bench group shot at Raton this past summer by a guy from CA, with a .45-70.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
ole7groove
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 152

South Western Pa, Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #40 - Nov 20th, 2006 at 8:19am
 
Mr. Westerner,

All of my rifle barrels in 22; 25; 28; 30; 32; & 38 calibers were 7 groove right hand twists, 35; 40; 44; 45 and 50 caliber barrels were 9 groove right hand twists. I made 33 caliber in 7 groove right hand and 8 groove left hand twists. All of my barrels are uniform twists, my rifling pattern was very similar to that of George Schoyen. Of course I made a few experimental barrels that varied from the above, but these were intended for my own experimental work. Count the grooves in the barrel laying on your bench again, on one occassion I had Ken rebore a 40 caliber barrel of mine to 40 caliber for test work. My 40 caliber groove diameter was .403 while his was .412 allowing clean-up. So if its 8 groove and is a 412 groove diameter its a Breisen rebore.  In the mid-70's I had my shop in Western N.Y. close to Ken Briesen, since Ken did reboring work (I didn't) I would often send this work to him. If he re-rifled the barrel he would stamp it with his name. Barrels made and fitted by myself will have my stamp on the top of the barrel and caliber; twist; date of manufacture and barrel number stamped on the bottom of the barrel under forearm. While I did sell a few barrel blanks they had my stamp on the breech end of the blank and would have to be removed during the fitting process.  

I hope this helps clear the water.

Regards,
B.W.Darr
Back to top
« Last Edit: Nov 20th, 2006 at 8:29am by ole7groove »  

Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #41 - Nov 21st, 2006 at 1:49am
 
Barry, thanks for the information. I checked that barrel again. it is eight groove. very shallow grooves. Lands and grooves equal width. Bottom flat is stamped 17813 then sgs95 then40/65WCF then B DARRALD+.  I was told buy the prevoius owner that it was a experimental paper patch barrel.  Groove diameter is .403. The ALD letters following DARR are hard to read, poor job of stamping. I think the rifle was assembled in texas. It shot like a house afire, but not in hot weather.      Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #42 - Nov 21st, 2006 at 3:40am
 
DonH, I appreciate your post.  The old timers did it with black, duplex and smokeless. I prefer doing it with duplex. I like using the most effective and efficient traditional loading method in my traditional rifles.  I like shooting in matches that require straight black. I dont like the mess.  Southwesterners!!??  My god, who let them have guns!!?? Next thing ya know they'll have cars. Then driven to Montana razin hell in the offhand matches.     Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
ole7groove
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 152

South Western Pa, Pennsylvania, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #43 - Nov 21st, 2006 at 8:30am
 
Joe,

I'm at a loss on your barrel, since I still have all of my barrel records and I can find no data regarding an 8 groove barrel in 40 caliber with groove diameter of .403 for paper patch bullets. Although, I did experiment with PP bullets many years ago. Regardless, if I made and fitted the barrel myself it would be marked neatly on top "B.W. DARR" in 1/16" letters not B DARR.

Regards,
Barry
Back to top
 

Rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.
 
IP Logged
 
joeb33050
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline




Posts: 2057

Re: Duplex
Reply #44 - Nov 22nd, 2006 at 4:45am
 
At Old Colony there's a rule allowing up to 5% smokeless with BP; many of us used this duplexing with about any slower smokeless and it kept the bore clean in my 45/70's and 40-1 7/8 Hepburn. At Wilton, no duplexing, some of us pushed a wet patch through after each shot, shot the next one through the wet bore. Also seemed to keep the bore clean. But I know nothing of BP, and after reading this thread I see that there are BP schuetzen guys here. Few to no schuetzen guys at the ranges where I've attended matches shot BP-I can't remember any.
We need a short article on BP Schuetzen shooting, would one of you take on the job? An intro, a couple of pages, with-hopefully-some pictures.
Thanks;
Joe Brennan.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
joeb33050
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline




Posts: 2057

Re: Duplex
Reply #45 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 11:43am
 
grapeshot, westerner, abcd;
If I understand this thread, the three of you have experience shooting BP in scheutzen rifles = 38 cal and below is what we need.
Would one or more of you write an Introduction to Black Powder Schuetzen Rifle Shooting for the CBA book? Maybe 1-2 pages, with info on the bullets and kind of powder and whatever else? With one or more pictures, if possible?
Thanks;
joe brennan
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #46 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 1:43pm
 
Joe,  I am not interested in writing. I've not even read all the books on the subject yet. I'm not familiar with yor project either.  I dont wish to get involved.  Good luck with your project. Get it done soon. I look forward to reading it.    Westerner.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #47 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 4:19pm
 
Joe, If you want to write about black powder schutzen shooting, you should attend a match. The only one I am aware of is the match coming up at Butte Montana.  The 8th thru the 10th of December. Thats what George Plimpton would do.      Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 73

Re: Duplex
Reply #48 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 4:29pm
 
Mr. Joeb,
   Mr. Pete would be the guy for you to talk to as I've gotten most of my info from him and he does write for the Journal. Or, Mr Brent! Or, anyone of half a dozen others on here. I'm just a newbie at BP shooting and Schuetzen. But, reading what you've said about some of the points raised here I'm not sure you would agree with anything any knowledgeable person would write. I'm afraid you've gotten yourself between a rock and a hard place and any "expert" just wont stick their neck out so you can chop it off with an addendum in your book.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
J.D.Steele
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


NRA Life since '76

Posts: 1167

Re: Duplex
Reply #49 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 6:48pm
 
abcd wrote on Nov 24th, 2006 at 4:29pm:
Mr. Joeb,
But, reading what you've said about some of the points raised here I'm not sure you would agree with anything any knowledgeable person would write.

Well said!

I'm afraid you've gotten yourself between a rock and a hard place and any "expert" just wont stick their neck out so you can chop it off with an addendum in your book.


One of my old bosses used to publish things regularly, and sometimes it even looked like his own work. Imagine that! But I'm sure many of us on this forum have had similar experiences.

JoeB, why don't you write about something with which you're at least familiar? Sure would help your credibility, not to mention your peer reviews. (G)
Just curious, Joe
Back to top
 

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a U.S. soldier!
 
IP Logged
 
Paul_F.
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 887

Eureka, CA, California, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #50 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 9:38pm
 
Reading the latter half of this thread, it is apparent to me that some folks don't understand the concept of a compilation work...
Where the editor collects the knowledge of others for publication.

It is also readily apparent that quite a few folks like to yip and spout "me too, what he said, yeah!, lets all repeat the same thing over and over!".

There have been some excellent points made..
AND there is a lot of behavior reminiscent of school children.

Might I be so bold as to suggest that if you think you have some "moral high ground", then act like it instead of continuing the incessant chatter. Your point is made, now move on with your lives.

A good evening and a good weekend to all!

Paul F.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Jim_Borton
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 445

Tipp City, Ohio, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #51 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 10:14pm
 
Thank You Paul!!!!!! Wink Saved me form being the "BAD GUY" Angry
Back to top
 

Hugs & Kisses
ASSRA life
NRA life
NMLRA life
CBA MEMBER
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #52 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 10:22pm
 
I cant help it if I have a duplex personality!!          Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 73

Re: Duplex
Reply #53 - Nov 24th, 2006 at 10:52pm
 
Mr. Paul_F,
  Point well taken.I'm probably going to hate myself for this.
  But Mr Joeb won't let it lay. If you know proper web protoccol you know that if you don't reply to someones remarks, that you know to be wrong, that means you agree with them. Several very knowledgeable people on here don't agree with him. I have a suggestion for you Mr. Paul. Why don't you write a nice article for Mr. Joeb? I'm serious about this! He really sounds like he needs someone to help him out. You sound like the perfect candidate! Then we could get shut of this whole thread. Mr. Joeb seems to want to keep pestering at us about it, and you're adding fuel to the fire and not offering any solution.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
joeb33050
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline




Posts: 2057

Re: Duplex
Reply #54 - Nov 25th, 2006 at 5:33am
 
abcd wrote on Nov 24th, 2006 at 4:29pm:
Mr. Joeb,
  Mr. Pete would be the guy for you to talk to as I've gotten most of my info from him and he does write for the Journal. Or, Mr Brent! Or, anyone of half a dozen others on here. I'm just a newbie at BP shooting and Schuetzen. But, reading what you've said about some of the points raised here I'm not sure you would agree with anything any knowledgeable person would write. I'm afraid you've gotten yourself between a rock and a hard place and any "expert" just wont stick their neck out so you can chop it off with an addendum in your book.

This is a good idea. Brent and Pete have showed up on the new CBA forum, so I'll ask them there also.
By the way, you seem to have a lot of opinions. What is your name?
joe brennan
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #55 - Nov 25th, 2006 at 6:40am
 
The subject of this thread is duplex loads. so, Maybe this will get it back on track.  Is a #2 ballard action strong enough to hold duplex loads in 25/20 SS chambering. Fixed or breech seated. I have a #2 in that cal. I might want to try it some time.     Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 73

Re: Duplex
Reply #56 - Nov 25th, 2006 at 5:06pm
 
Mr. Joeb,
  As you know opinions are like noses. Everybodies got one. You really don't get it, do you? I can't speak for Mr. Pete, but from what I've seen on here I think Mr. Brent wouldn't write anything for you for cash on the barrel head. Just call me Ab. My friends call me Abby. You didn't think my sign-in didn't mean anything, did you? My folks had a sense of humor!

Mr. Joe (Westerner) Don't want to get you confused with all these other Joe's.  Smiley About all I know about Ballard actions is that I wouldn't trust a cast action with anything more than a .22 RF. If you have a forged action it might be ok for duplexing a .25/20SS. You haven't mentioned what kind you have.  But I wouldn't bet on that because some strange things can happen when duplexing if you're not careful. Just because you can shoot smokeless, and just because you can shoot black, does not necessarily mean you can safely mix the two. I've read where pressure excursions come up pretty rapidly when you pass certain points and in something like a Ballard action you could get in trouble. This is why all the experts don't recommend anything more than 10% smokeless. With modern .25/20SS cases that would be about  1.5 - 2 grs. if you breech seat and less for fixed.

Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #57 - Nov 28th, 2006 at 2:39am
 
abcd,   I'll start with 1.5 grains as you suggest. I agree that if one uses too much smokeless powder one would be in trouble. Whether it be smokeless or duplex. In my post I stated I have a #2 Ballard. Its a cast action. Ive shot this rifle quite a bit with 4227, and AA#9. I dont believe there is any mysterious unexplainable chemical reactions when smokeless and blackpowder is used together. I think too much powder is too much powder. Do you think that the type of smokeless powder( burning rate) is important concerning case capacity when duplexing? Would you use a slow powder for a small shell or a faster powder? Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 73

Re: Duplex
Reply #58 - Nov 28th, 2006 at 11:51am
 
Mr. Joe(Westerner),
  My comments about duplexing leading to problems is what some of the "experts" say. They say it's not a question of any chemical reaction taking place. Smokeless powder is meant to burn at a fixed rate due to the shape and coatings put on it. If the imbalance becomes to much then you'll get some kind of flashover and a burn rate not meant for eiither of those powders, I can see their points if you start to get carried away. If to high then the claim is detonation could occur and that wouldn't be good no matter what action you used. I've had no problems by following the 10% rule, and you might not have any either. Then we have those strange Canadian people who run as high as 25% when shooting their LR matches at Connaught. But always nice to know what the "experts" say, whether they know what their talking about or not!  Smiley We also have to remember back in the 40's and 50's none of the "experts" recommended that the unwashed masses should even attempt to reload. Just to dangerous! We've gone over my feeling about cast actions so won't repeat them. You're strictly on your own if you wish to use one. I've seen three come apart with what are considered "safe" loads. I would recommend using a medium burn powder for your duplexing. 4227 is a good one, but the one most recommended is SR4759. You will be replacing black with smokeless and SR4759 does a good job of replacing black gr. for gr., volume-wise. The whole idea of duplexing in Schuetzen is not to increase the MV, which you will of course. It's more to give a complete burn to the BP so you can shoot mulitple shots without having to wipe out often. So you have two goals to look for. A clean bore and accuracy. This can get to be tricky as you can imagine. To be truthful with you I've never found the accuracy level to equal either black or smokeless.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #59 - Nov 28th, 2006 at 1:06pm
 
abcd, I disagree with your stating that 4759 does a good job replacing BP gr for gr. I dont think anyone would want to shoot a case full of 4759. I have experiance with that powder. I once set my powder measure ten grains higher than it should have been. That gave me a charge weighing 23 grains. when I fired the rifle, I new immediately something was wrong. I had to drive the case out of the chamber with a wiping rod. Had I used a full caes or 40 grains I do believe I would have been wearing that Hi wall. Ive had a lot more fun shooting with the canadians than the experts.    Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 73

Re: Duplex
Reply #60 - Nov 28th, 2006 at 3:29pm
 
Mr. Joe,
  Please read my message again. I probably didn't state it in a concise enough manner. What I said was that 4759 replaces BP gr. for gr. volume-wise. Right? There is a difference between gr. for gr. as a volume or as a wgt. replacement. 4759 is a bulky powder. Also the reason it doesn't measure out well. It's grain size more closely resembles the 1F powder most prevalently used in BP cartridges in the old days. It's early use was as a BULK replacement for BP by Schuetzen shooters. It's not going to be exact but it's a lot closer than most any other powder.  As you're aware finer grained powders can and are used as duplex powders to. If so things like compression will be changed and have to be taken into account since the column hgt. will be different. There are other things to consider when duplexing but I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. I'm sure you'll do what you want. Good luck!
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
FITZ
Oldtimer
*****
Offline


REGARDS

Posts: 603

MASSACHUSETTS, Massachusetts, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #61 - Nov 28th, 2006 at 5:22pm
 
ABCD, 4759 is not and should not be considered a Gr for Gr replacement for Black powder no matter if you are talking Volume or Grain weight. It is in fact a very fast burning powder and would be a disaster in any original soft barrel. There was a Bulk Smokeless used at the turn of the century but it has not been available for many years. As an instance about two years ago a batch of 4759 became available from a surplus Military Ammunition dealer. It turns out this was salvaged Powder from .308 Blank or Ceremony ammunition. Now to work in this application it has to have the ability to acheive some pressure level with either no projectile or a very flimsy one such as the wooden bullets used in some I have seen. My 38-55 case will
hold about 49 Grs of powder filled to the mouth. I shudder to think of what that would do behind a 330 Gr breech seated bullet. I have Duplexed with 4759 for years with no problems and the Rifles shoot very well. My standard is 3.5 grs of 4759 behind a casefull of Fg black.
Not compressed just held in place with a 1/32" Cork wad. I load this way for both 32-40 and 38-55. The reason for Duplexing has always been said to reduce fowling. What I don't know is if the Smokeless burns out the fouling, or just blows it out as it burns progressivly down the barrel. I do know it shoots a lot cleaner and you can spend a day shooting Duplex loads and not have to clean or wipe the Bore unless it is a real cold, dry low humididty day. Well nuff said for now, Regards,
FITZ.
Back to top
 

FITZ
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #62 - Nov 28th, 2006 at 10:28pm
 
absd, I read your post several times. It still reads the same. Whatever you do dont try to load 4759 gr for gr or volume for volume to replace black powder. I like your idea of a medium burn rate powder for duplexing the 25/20SS. One reason is, I dont know if I have a measure that will throw charges below a grain. I think I'll use R7 to start with. I understand your feelings regarding the Ballard cast action. But since I barreled this one, and I have shot quite a few rounds with different loads and powders I feel safe. I have two ballard recievers in the shop that were blown up. One is a forged action that was blown in half from a seperated shell left unnoticed in the barrel.  The shooter is a long time bp shooter. He was using straight black when things went wrong. The other one is a #3 action that was 32/40. I shot it for about five years in matches. I was shooting a duplex load. It was a black powder offhand match. I had some trouble getting a round to go all the way in ,so I used the breechblock to seat the tight cartridge. When I fired the lever fell open. I knew right away something was amiss. Thats when I noticed the crack down the side of the action. The problem was ,the case I crammed in there was about a 1/16 longer than any shell I had at the time. Another problem was, on close inspection the action had no less than four holes drilled in it. These holes were brazed over then the action was nickel plated. It looked fine and worked fine for thousands of rounds. The Ballard I have now is free of the hidden holes.  Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
james a pickup
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 366

richardson,tx, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #63 - Nov 29th, 2006 at 10:27am
 
I have duplexed for thirty years will no problems, when i first started i used Dupont "Shotgun Smokeless" which is a bulk powder very much like schuetzen smokeless, however it was last made in 1966. This powder worked very well, but it was fast burning and burned out after 24" or so, the muzzle of your rifle could get very dirty while the breech was clean. I now use 4759-i believe it's three(3) times as strong as GOEX, it works better than the previous stuff because it's slower burning. I NEVER use more than 10% weight of smokeless, that's all you need anywhy.
As to why duplexing works, i think black powder is low in oxyigen, and the smokeless supllies this, and also i have noticed that duplexing does
raise the pressure some and maybe that's why the black burns better-the more pressure you get with black powder, the better it burns.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #64 - Nov 29th, 2006 at 3:01pm
 
Singleshotman, interesting comments. I have found that using just enough smokeless to make the black burn clean gives me the best accuracy. Ive been using R7 because it meters through my powder measures better than 4759. I certainly do agree that black burns better with more pressure.    Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 73

Re: Duplex
Reply #65 - Nov 29th, 2006 at 3:33pm
 
  Okay! I can see I'm not getting throught to you guys. So lets do it in as simple a manner as possible. I just went out to the shop and did the work.

  From previous messages in this thread we have come to the conclusion that Mr. Joe will need approx. 1.5 grs. of an appropriate duplexing powder. I chose SR4759 because that's what I recommend. Anything else you guys try is strictly on your own hook.

  I set my measure to throw 1.5 grs. of it. Sorry your measure doesn't throw that small a charge Mr. Joe. Better get a B&M. It will throw charges as small as .8 gr. with no problems. Actually I was real surprised at how consistent the charges were considering the problems you have with larger charges.

  I next loaded the measure with 1 1/2 Swiss which is what I use for ALL black powder cartridges.

  Using the same volume as I used for the SR4759  the Swiss weighed 1.8 grs.

  As I mentioned, for duplexing you are trying to replace the volume of the black powder with smokeless powder. Now if you want to use a different smokeless powder or a different black then you will have to work it out for yourself. The above is what I've always used when I've tried duplexing. If you try something else then as they always say on the web YMMV! To bad you guys didn't want to get into some of the real reasons for not using duplex loads.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #66 - Nov 29th, 2006 at 3:55pm
 
abcd, I do have a B&M unit, but never use it for anything. I have a use for it now thanks to you, thanks.  I stopped using the volume method of measuring powder a long time ago. Except for when I shoot a percussion ML rifle.   Ok, I'll bite, What are the real  reasons for not duplexing? I have some thoughts on that, that I dont mind expressing. Mind you, they are thoughts only and I dont know if they are correct or not.         Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #67 - Nov 29th, 2006 at 4:16pm
 
abcd, I read your post again and understand what your saying. But still, 1.8 grains of 4759 is far more powerfull than 1.8 grains of 1.5 swiss. 4759 cannot be used to replace black powder in weight or volume.   Will you agree with that? In my experience It only takes about 12.5 to 13 grains of 4759 to obtain black powder velocities in the 32/40.   Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 73

Re: Duplex
Reply #68 - Nov 29th, 2006 at 5:07pm
 
Mr. Joe,
Exactly! But it's 1.5 grs. of SR4759, not 1.8. I didn't replace the SR4759 with anything. I just used what we had agreed on as a safe charge for duplexing a load for you. That's why I set up the B&M for 1.5 grs. The fact that 1.5 grs. of SR4759 is more powerful than 1.8 grs. of Swiss 1 1/2 is what can lead to problems.
  This induces pressures higher than an equivalent amount of black powder. This is the reason for the 10% rule. In most cases you won't get in trouble using it. Most cases! I don't think either of us would use Bullseye as a duplexing powder. Especially if you use SR4759.
  Also pressure peaks between black and smokeless are a lot different. Black tends to peak faster than smokeless in most cases. Powders like Bullseye might be an exception. I don't know.
  Another problem is the primer flare. You have a small amount of smokeless sitting at the back of the case. The primer flash will go right through the smokeless into the black. Black tends to ignite at a lower temp. than smokeless and burns hotter to. One of the reasons it's classed as an explosive. Primers today are not like the old "soft" black powder primers. The old timers used to bitch about this all the time. But for our discussion we have a primer hotter than necessary for the black so as the flash goes through the smokeless and ignites the black first it back burns to the smokeless. Now the smokeless is not meant to be ignited by a solid wall of flame. It also burns slower than the black.
  It is theorized that the black going off first the pressure wave goes from the front to the back, rather than the back to the front as it should. This can, under the right circumstances, set up pressure waves that bounce back and forth in the case. From this it is thought that detonation can occur.
  It is thought, by some, that chamber ringing with small charges of smokeless could be caused by this pressure wave bounce. The reasoning is brought forward that you will never see chamber ringing using black powder just due to the full case loads.
  Now don't go trying to pick this apart because I didn't dot all the "i"'s and cross all the "t"'s, as it's a very simplistic overview on a really vast subject. Each part above would require a long message in itself. We can take one part at a time and get into it in more detail if you'd like.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #69 - Nov 29th, 2006 at 5:48pm
 
abcd, ok I wont pick it apart. I have kept up with all the theories about pressure waves, rings primers, all that stuff.  so what are the real reasons one should not use duplex loads?    Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 73

Re: Duplex
Reply #70 - Nov 29th, 2006 at 8:07pm
 
Mr. Joe,
  Real reasons!? Pick any of the ones I've mentioned. Most Will happen at one time or the other depending on how you approach things. It's like saying you will die in a head on collision with a semi if you're going 90 mph. The idea is to be prudent and not get in the way of a semi. Same goes for working up duplex loads, or any other load for that matter. The thing against what you want to do is two fold. You want to do this in an action most will tell you is only fit for .22 RF's. If you'd wanted to do this with a High Wall I wouldn't have said a thing. Secondly. I don't know, or, have read, of anyone doing what you want to do with that small a caliber. So as far as I'm concerned it's a whole new ball game and should be approached with caution. I'm not trying to dissuade you. What I'm trying to do is make you aware of potential problems so that you go into the project with both eyes open. But, you seem to be as up on potential problems as I am, so there's not much sense saying anything more. You seem to have your mind made up. Good Luck!
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #71 - Nov 29th, 2006 at 9:39pm
 
abcd,  I cant pick a real reason from the theories you have outlined. They are only theories. I could, I suppose if I chose to believe them, but I dont. I will keep using the experience I have accumulated. There is an old saying, there is nothing new under the sun. I'm sure someone, probably Rabbeth shot duplex loads in the 25/20 SS.  As far as the cast action. Its always made me a bit nervous.  I have to remind myself to be brave! And not to make any mistakes. The safety margin is slim with the cast Ballard action.  I think your right, weve just about worn this subject out. I have enjoyed every second of it. I think we both learned something in the process. I learned a B&M powder measure works for small charges of 4759. And you learned that #2 ballards are cast. I'll let you know how the duplex loads work. It'll have to wait for warm weather I'm afraid.        Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 73

Re: Duplex
Reply #72 - Nov 30th, 2006 at 6:27pm
 
Mr Joe,
  I don't know about ALL my statements being just theories. I think most of them have happened to someone at one time or another. They are theories only in the fact that the "why" or "how" exactly they happen is still open to discussion. That they do happen is a fact.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


When in doubt, say it's
a sniper scope.

Posts: 5825

Quilcene, Washington, USA
Re: Duplex
Reply #73 - Nov 30th, 2006 at 8:04pm
 
abcd, the next time you find yourself trying to get the tenth shot in the  25 like the last nine, I want you to hold the last bullet between your index finger and your thumb. Then say these words. frizzle frazzle frizzle frone time for this one to go home.   Joe.
Back to top
 

Proud Noodlehead.
 
IP Logged
 
abcd
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 73

Re: Duplex
Reply #74 - Dec 1st, 2006 at 9:33am
 
Mr. Joe,
  Doesn't work!  Angry
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 
Send Topic Print