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219 Zipper loads (Read 2921 times)
cliff219
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219 Zipper loads
Jan 11th, 2007 at 4:08pm
 
Seek information on favorite loads in 219 Zipper family both target and varmint.  Also, information on various "Improved" Zippers folks have come into contact with and loads they use.

I just got a circa 1930's Greifelt SS rebarreled 219 Zipper in 1950s discussed on the SS Gun forum topic list.  Current plan is to fireform some standard Zipper rounds made up from 25-35 annealed cases and will begin with 3031. Then see what exactly "Improved" chamber we have such as Ackley or other and go from there.  Have heavy 24 inch barrel with 16 twist.  Plan to test a lot of loads. Suggestions?

Thanks,
Cliff

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singleshooter
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Re: 219 Zipper loads
Reply #1 - Jan 11th, 2007 at 9:08pm
 
I will try to send you a PM once I have posted 1 time per forum rules.
I have a 219 Zipper in Contender Rifle.    Ed
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tim_s
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Re: 219 Zipper loads
Reply #2 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 8:40am
 
In a std Zipper I use 28.5gr of 4895 with 55gr btsp. It shoots quite well out of a 27" bbl high wall.
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boats
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Re: 219 Zipper loads
Reply #3 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 9:14am
 
I sold my .219 zipper barrel that was fitted to one of my CPA's

I had some good loads.  I recomend you start with the bullet, I settled on 50 grs, Lighter will go faster and heavy .22's miss the point of a varmit rifle to my mind

Anyway with the 50 gr Serria I used 3031 and reached 3000 fpx.  3031 because it was in keeping with the age and intended powder for that load when it was first loaded. It shot very well.

Finaly I settled on ACC 2520 because thats the powder I use for modern High Power Silouette loads in a 7mm08 and what my high power measure has in it most times. With a sporter barrel and hunting scope it could be counted on to group just over an inch anytime.

Boats
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wufhunter
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Re: 219 Zipper loads
Reply #4 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 11:42am
 
Although not a SS I have a Savage 99 rebarreled to 219 Zipper. The load I use is CCI-BR2 primers, and either 25.5 gr. H4895 or 27 gr. IMR4320 w/a Sierra 55 gr. BTHP bullet.  Approximately 3010fps. and 3/4" groups @ 100yds. Good enough for varmints!
Graeme
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boats
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Re: 219 Zipper loads
Reply #5 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 3:11pm
 
Cliff

On the Improved Zipper vs the Zipper.  My Zipper was a factory spec chamber but I do have a K Hornet which is just the Hornet case but straight sided.

I don't think it's any faster than a normal Hornet but in my T/C carbine the case works a lot better. Does not streach as much and I suspect grabs the side of the chamber better.

The Zipper ought to benifit the same way, Factory chambers are real tapered, no doubt because it was designed to work in a Lever action rifle.  However in a nice old single shot I don't think I would look for maximum velocity.  My regular Zipper loads came a long way from filling the cartridge case and I think a case full of most powders would be too much, way too much.

Thats my opinon anyway

Boats
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cliff219
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Re: 219 Zipper loads
Reply #6 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 6:07pm
 
"All," thanks so much for all the great info and tips. Singleshooter, look forward to getting that magazine article on the 219. Hopefully will be out at the range in 10 days or so with plenty of hot coffee.
Some info from the old wildcatter days turns up that the standard 219 Zipper was very close to the older 22 Niedner Magnum in size. It seems 40gr. (Sisk Express),46gr., 50, 55 gr. (Sisk-Niedner), 56 gr., and even 63 gr.(Sisk-Niedner) were loaded. Powders seemed to be mostly 3031 but then also some 4064, HiVel No. 3, 4320, 4198, DuPont 80.
A custom falling black made by Bill Staege of Omro, Wisconsin back in the 40s or early 50s was reported to have given the following groups at 100 yards with 50 gr. bullet: 5 shots in .48 inch using 28.5gr of 3031; 10 shots in .68 inch using 23.0 gr. of 4198, and 10 shots in .50 inch using 28.5 gr 3031.   
Some old "Improved" versions include the "Hartung 22 Comet" (a 219 Zipper) by A.L. Hartung of Pomeroy, Ohio.  One load for this was 32 gr of 4320 behind 40 gr. bullet, with groups at 100 yards said to have ranged from .350 to .750 inch.  One load Ackley used for his Improved version was 37 gr. 4320 with 50 gr. bullet.  Clarence Hill of Dixon, Illinois had an Improved Zipper design but I haven't found data on how he loaded it.  Also, Hervey Lovell worked up some Zipper loads and liked the 219.  There was in the 1940s or 50s  a custom "Mashburn Zipper" with very fine accuracy built on a Sharps-B action owned by Mark Warkins of Denver who used 30 gr. 4064 or 3031 behind 55 gr. bullet. He also used 31 gr of same.
A 1937 Winchester Ballistics lLab test -- 100, 200, 300 yards-- of the 219 with factory ammo (46 and 56 gr) showed a profile similar to a 220 Swift with factory ammo.
Will keep digging around for some old lore and loads and look forward to hearing more on this forum. Thanks again for your help and will work the loads into my own field tests.
Best,
Cliff
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akjeff
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Re: 219 Zipper loads
Reply #7 - Jan 12th, 2007 at 11:41pm
 
Cliff,

I'm still fine tuning loads for my .219 Zipper Improved, but so far, my best combination has been a 40gr Hornady V-Max driven by 33gr of H4895, a WLR primer, and R-P 30-30 brass. Average velocity of a tad over 3800fps. Five shot groups are under 3/4". This, from a 26" barrel.

When you mentioned A.L. Hartung of Pomeroy, OH, you sure perked my ears up! My .219 was built by Mr.Hartung on a '78 Sharps action. If you have any info on Hartung, I'd really like to hear it! If you do a search of this forum, you'll find a post by me, on this rifle. It's also on the cover of the issue before last of the Single Shot Rifle Journal.

Regards,

Jeff
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ao3
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Re: 219 Zipper loads
Reply #8 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 6:30am
 
Using 24.8 IMR=4064 in a Martini ,mild load,getting nice group    AO-3
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cliff219
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Re: 219 Zipper loads
Reply #9 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 8:49am
 
jeff and ao3 thanks for the help.
jeff, came across a reference to Hartung when researching the old pioneering wildcatters' loads for my 219.  For his ".22 Comet," he was reported to have used the full .219 Zipper case length with neck of .250, head dia. .416, shoulder .375 with 28 degree slope.  He made a rimless version also based on .25, .30, and .32 Rem cases.  Est velocity 3600.  He had a friend, D. F. "Jake" Jacoby of Logan, Ohio who used 30-30 cases and WRA No. 120 primers. His loads were 32.0 gr of 4320 behind 40 gr. with the five shot groups running .350-.750.  When zeroed at 200, his impacts ran .750 above aim at 100 yds.  His range was 100-285 yards but took a chuck at 450.
There was a tool maker who made dies, named S.S. Webb, who lived in Warren, Ohio and made custom .224 dies.  I don't know if he worked with Hartung but they are both Ohio folks.  Also, there was a gunsmith in Upper Sandusky, Ohio, named J.F. Morris, who built custom varmint rifles chambered for 2R Lovell and other.
On the ss gun forum when talking about my Greifelt ss, I mentioned a Dr. E. G. Braddock of Lewiston, Idaho who in about the 50s had W High Walls, Sharps-B, and Farq actions and preferred the 219 for varmints and used 50 grain spitzer type points.  He got to velocities about 3500 in standard and 3600 in improved with some heavier loads. Perhaps someone has info on him as a 219 buff.
Hervey Lovell's load for the .219 in factory chambering (which he liked) was 30 gr of 3031 behind 40 gr. Sisks and 27 gr. 3031 behind 55 gr. Sisk-Neidner. He had one gun with 20 twist in a 25 inch barrel and another with a 14 twist in a 30 inch barrel. He used WRA 115 primers.
Will continue looking into old 219 lore and have some reference material on order.
Best,
Cliff

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akjeff
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Re: 219 Zipper loads
Reply #10 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 2:49pm
 
Cliff,

Thanks for sharing the info, and look forward to hearing more, as your research continues. I'll be sure to keep you in mind, when it warms up here, and I get back to the bench with the .219. I hope that on my next trip to western PA( where I grew up ), that I have time to poke around eastern OH for more info on Hartung. Pomeroy isn't very far from my home territory.

Regards,

Jeff
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tim_s
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Re: 219 Zipper loads
Reply #11 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 2:52pm
 
Cliff, before you get too far along with this, take into consideration that the burn rates of modern 3031 or 4320, for instance are very different from what they were 50-60 years ago.
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cliff219
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Re: 219 Zipper loads
Reply #12 - Jan 13th, 2007 at 5:00pm
 
Thanks Tim, shall do as I experiment. I am trying for a moderate load that works well and all the suggestions here have been very helpful. This afternoon a 219 buff told me his favorite is 31.5 gr. 4320 behind a Barnes 40gr.VLC.
Cliff    
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