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Starting loads for Browning 40-65 BPCR (Read 3122 times)
sakoman
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Starting loads for Browning 40-65 BPCR
Aug 27th, 2007 at 5:04am
 
I just got a Browning BPCR in 40-65 with a Badger barrel.

I am looking for starting loads with cast lubricated bullets for  smokeless and black powder.

Any help from your experience would be appreciated.

Allen

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PowderFlask2
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Re: Starting loads for Browning 40-65 BPCR
Reply #1 - Aug 27th, 2007 at 8:07am
 
Allen

not sure what bullet your shooting but, figure your overall cartridge length just touching the rifling, then put some 2F Swiss in so there is no compression with the wad of your choice.

Cartridge length + bullet length - overall length = seating depth

Use a mild primer, CCI BR2 or winchester large pistol primers and there you have it.

Individual case thickness, Starline being thicker than Remington and Winchester being the thinnest will determine how much powder you can put in with no compression.

I've been through several cases of black but haven't opened a can of the other stuff for several years so I'll let some one else chime in on that.

Gary
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Black_Prince
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Re: Starting loads for Browning 40-65 BPCR
Reply #2 - Aug 27th, 2007 at 10:04am
 
Allen

The basic start is exactly what powderflask2 has said. 

I shoot the Snover 400 grain bullet lubed with SPG or Emmeritt's over 60 grains of 1 1/2 Swiss, a 30 Thousands wad, and a fed 210 m primer with good results.  When carefully drop tubed, that powder charge does not compress in my Winchester cases but it does in Starline cases no matter how carefully I drop tube it.

If you want to shoot a mild smokeless load, try 10 to 12 grains of unique.

If you want to duplex load, try 10 to 12% of 4227 over the primer and the balance Goex to the base of the wad/bullet.  I shoot 49 grains of Goex FFG over 5.6 grains of IMR 4227, using the 400 grain Snover bullet and wad  in Starline cases and can shoot 50 rounds without cleaning or blow tubing.  Looking down the barrel after 50 rounds looks as if I had been shooting smokeless powder.  But as you may know, duplex loads are not allowed in some matches.

If you shoot smokeless in your rifle, you may want to continue using a good black powder lube and not introduce any petrolium based materials into the  barrel.  If petrolium based lubes have been used in your barrel before you got it, you will probably have to give it a very thorough cleaning before attempting to work up any accurate BP loads.  That goes for having any copper fouling in the barrel as well.

My cartridge OAL is such that I actually jam the bullet into the rifling so hard that if I atempt to extract it after I close the breach, the bullet remains stuck in the lands and the case extracts.  I have had no good accuracy seating the bullet off the lands with any load even a very small amount, and am considering going to breach seating.

Good luck and let us know what works for you.  It's always interesting to see the different loads that do well in the same rifles.

BTW, there were only 1329 of those rifles produced by Browning chambered for the 40-65, so you are not going to run into one of them frequently.  Most of them had the "lazy" extractor that you have to manually pull down before you can insert a cartridge.  It's no big deal once you become accustomed to doing that.
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MI-shooter
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Re: Starting loads for Browning 40-65 BPCR
Reply #3 - Aug 27th, 2007 at 12:25pm
 
The load I finally settled on for my Roller is 62gr Swiss 1.5f, Fed LP primer, Starline brass, .060 Walters fiber wad, RCBS 350gr (actual weight 365gr) 30:1 alloy,  sized .409, neck sized only. Compression is on the order of 0.3" with two lube grooves exposed. I had to have my chamber throated to get here. Accuracy is just on the + side of 2MOA. I'm sure HST will chime in soon. I think he prefers no neck tension, a LDPE wad and a few more grains of powder.
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FEB
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Re: Starting loads for Browning 40-65 BPCR
Reply #4 - Aug 27th, 2007 at 8:24pm
 
I have a Cody Ballard Silhouette in 40-65 and have been shooting a 410 grain semi-Snover bullet over 60.0 grains of 3fg Swiss with no compression, a 0.060 Walters fiber wad, and a Federal 210m primer.  That has been producing 1335 feet per second.
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DonH
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Re: Starting loads for Browning 40-65 BPCR
Reply #5 - Aug 28th, 2007 at 4:37am
 
Remington cases, WLR primer, RCBS 400 gn. bullet, .030 fiber wad and 57 gn GOEX 2F powder. Unsized, fireformed cases in a Shiloh chamber. I'm quite sure this load gives less velocity than others mentioned but accuracy is on the order of + or - 2 MOA. The powder is compressed but not heavily and the lube is my own, similar to Emmert's. Other bullets are better but you get the picture.
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J.D.Steele
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Re: Starting loads for Browning 40-65 BPCR
Reply #6 - Aug 28th, 2007 at 1:41pm
 
Dan Theodore, Dangerous Dan the Torpedo Man, used one of the Browning 40-65 rifles to win both legs of the Pedersoli MOA Challenge. I believe he is the only person to win both plaques, one for irons & the other for scope. The Challenge consists of firing four consecutive 5-shot groups that all measure less than 1 MOA, lead bullets only, before a witness.

Since Dan won both plaques using the same 40-65 Browning, I'd hafta say that he knows somewhat about 40-65 loads. He can usually be found on the Shiloh board, and he can be quite nice and very helpful at times. I'm sure he would be happy to help with load data, as well as promoting his BP lube.
Good luck, Joe
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cam0063
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Re: Starting loads for Browning 40-65 BPCR
Reply #7 - Aug 28th, 2007 at 7:26pm
 
I agree with Joe. Dan is a great source of info, particularly the .40cal and has been extremely helpful to me too. I know he had spent much time developing a .40cal 410gr Micro mini groove bullet for LR, which is doing very well... It is made by Paul Jones. So he is a source worth keeping an eye out for and has many posts on BPCR Net, MSN BPCR and the Shiloh forums. Doing a search at these will bring much info on the .40-65. [from memory Dan goes by hpguy tag and/or hpguy420]. Good luck and good shooting.

cheers,

Cam...
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« Last Edit: Aug 28th, 2007 at 7:33pm by cam0063 »  
 
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oldbluelight
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Re: Starting loads for Browning 40-65 BPCR
Reply #8 - Aug 28th, 2007 at 7:57pm
 
My two cents.
I have never shot anything but black in my BPCR but I’ve found several species of black powder that work well in mine. Until Goex Express came out the best performers were Swiss 1 ½ and Goex Cartridge with the Lyman Snover bullet that casts to .410” in my mould. I have used nothing but R-P 45-70 cases resized in RCBS dies to 40-65. The consensus is that they are midway between Starline and Winchester in terms of capacity. I used to use a partial neck resize with expand and bell but I’m lazy by nature and explored the possibility of deleting as many prep steps as possible. I found my maximum OAL by inserting a bullet in the chamber until it contacted the lands firmly. Holding it in place with a dowel, I inserted the cleaning rod into the muzzle until it contacted the bullet’s nose and marked the rod. I then  removed the bullet, closed the breech and inserted the rod until it contacted the block with the hammer cocked and marked it. The distance between the two marks with the Lyman Snover was 2.965”.
The following is a standard disclaimer: THIS IS MY OAL – YOU CAN’T HAVE IT – YOU HAVE TO GET YOUR OWN. It is sometimes abreviated as “YMMV”.
There are several variables that may prevent this OAL from being right in your rifle; chamber dimensions, bullet dimensions which vary from mould to mould, etc, but this dimension places the bullet firmly in the lands in my rifle.
R-P cases fireformed in my chamber are a slip fit for the Snover bullet sized .410” and I no longer resize for loads with it because the bullet is firmly seated in the lands providing resistance sufficient to assure a good burn. Paradise for a lazy man.
According to one Browning expert (Texas Mac) the rifle’s chamber was dimensioned for just this loading proceedure and the slight amount of play between case and bullet, .001", promotes perfect alignment with the bore.  Seated to My OAL Snovers extend into the case approximately .500”. I use the expander plug to seat a punch-cut orange juice carton wad and a newspaper spacer to a depth of .490 - .495” and finish any compression with the bullet seating die. This small amount of compression will not distort the bullet and I regard the final 'crunch' as confirmation that the bullet is seated firmly on the powder.

I use SPG lube in an older Lyman lubrisizer with a .410 die to lube  bullets.

I have used Federal Match LR and CCI BR II in my loads with indistinguishable results.

This is a listing of my loads – NOT MY RECOMMENDATIONS. I don’t have any recommendations because YMMV.

The following loads with the lyman Snover are capable of 1.5 MOA and frequently approach the almost mythical (for me) 1 MOA for 5 shots at 100 yds in my rifle.

57.5 grains Swiss 1 ½ (this load has almost no compression)
62 grains Goex Cartridge
63 grains Goex Express 3f

Recently I added a new bullet, the Hoch 409-405. It casts at .409” and requires partial case sizing to slightly reduce neck diameter and give about .002” neck tension on the bullet base. Careful use of the expander  produces a bell that is equal to a fired case’s diameter and seating can be accomplished without shaving lead.  No crimp is required to remove the bell. This bullet is tapered and extends further into the bore giving more case capacity so OAL is greater than the Snover.

Limited testing makes it the equal of the Snover so far. Best  load is 64.5 grains of Express 2f.
 
Velocities for my loads will  range from 1150 to 1300 fps. Swiss and Express are the fastest. Two groups fired last weekend with the Express loads listed for each bullet measured 1.213” and 1.114” CTC respectivley.

BC for the Snover is .485 and .420 for the Hoch according to reputable sources (more expierenced and distinguished marksmen than myself is the definition of reputable)  and trajectory calculatons based on those figures are very close to 'on the money'.

The rifle is more or less stock, original sights and trigger with two small exceptions: Hadley eyecup on the tang and a ‘lolipop’ insert for the front from a Lyman 17a. I did do some light sanding to the breech end of the forearm to eliminate any possible contact with the reciever when the gun is hot. Index card clearance is the standard for me, not particularly noticable but effective.

I did notice excessive side-to-side play in the original tang sight and Browning repaired it quickly at no charge even though I was not the original purchaser.


Just as an afterthought. If you have a dependable supply sticking with black powder in the cartridges designed for it offers some small advantages. The possibility of reaching dangerous pressures is reduced because the volume of the cartridge is designed around the energy of this propellent. A 40-65 can hold way more of some smokeless powders than is good for it.  Filling it to the bullet base with BP is easier than trying to find a way to keep a less than full volume of some smokeless powders properly oriented in the case. Increments in load testing for BP are generally much larger( on the order of 1-2 grains) than with smokeless and you've reached a maximum load when you can't find a way to get any more in the case. That  the maximum load is not the same as maximum pressure with BP is a nice bonus.

I just realized that’s a dang sight more than two cents worth but don’t worry about it -- my bookeeper drifted off to sleep while I was typing this.
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