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old .22 CF cartridge question (Read 4612 times)
QuestionableMaynard8130
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old .22 CF cartridge question
Oct 26th, 2007 at 8:25am
 
Last year at one of the shoots (maybe the summer shoot) at EG I was talking with some guys about the 22 cf thing and somebody mentioned that there was a very old 22 centerfire cartridge that predated the Hornet et al.  I don't recall the details, it was late in the evening and we were pretty well relaxed.  However the memory has surfaced and I'd like to learn a bit more about it if possible.   Seems like it was one of those oddball propriatary cartridges something like a 22-25 single shot or something of that ilk.

Anyone have and info, data etc they can share?
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Green_Frog
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #1 - Oct 26th, 2007 at 9:34am
 
DWS, could you possibly be referring to the old Winchester round, the .22 WCF? This was essentially a BP .22 Hornet.  There is also a .218 Bee that is a necked-down .32-20.  These were both factory rounds at one time or another.  

Froggie
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Fred Boulton
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #2 - Oct 26th, 2007 at 2:53pm
 
I don't know why, but Eley used to make a .22 centre fire!
Fred.
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Dave_Carpenter
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #3 - Oct 26th, 2007 at 4:29pm
 
There were a pile of .22 Center fire cartridges before the hornet such as the .22 WCF, .22 Extra Long Maynard, 22-15-60 Stevens. There were also many wildcat .22's such as the .22-28-30 Niedner, .22-32-40 Niedner, .22 Rimmed & Rimless Niedner Mag, and .22 Baby Mag.
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Quarter_Bore
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #4 - Oct 26th, 2007 at 5:01pm
 
Don't forget the .22-20 Harwood Hornet.
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marlinguy
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #5 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 4:06pm
 
The world's very first .22 centerfire cartridge was the old 297/230 Morris! It dates to pre 1882, and was originally designed to be shot with a barrel insert in the old Martini Henry  .577/450 for training use.
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2520
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #6 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 11:04pm
 
There are a many of these "woochuck" cartridges, many developed in the 30's and 40's.  Research in old American Rifleman mags and chuck hunting books (Landis and others) will amaze you.  Many are very closely related depending on who ground the chamber reamer and what original cartridge case was used both rimed and rimless.  If anyone desides to make and shoot some of these oldies DO NOT use any of the old loading data.  None of these guys had the pressure measuring or velocity measuring equipment which is available today.  Some  of the loading data I have reseached is damn dangerous.  Most all of these cartridges bit the dust in the 50's when the .222 was developed and with good reason-fast, accurate, and good, safe loading data.  Shooting these cartridges in the old rifles is great fun but do not trust the old data.  Have the old gun looked at by an expert as well.  Once found a neat old Ballard that had been converted to .218 Bee.  This is not a good idea.  Best to error on the side of safety.
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Doug_Nelson
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #7 - Oct 27th, 2007 at 11:08pm
 
Fred Boulton wrote on Oct 26th, 2007 at 2:53pm:
I don't know why, but Eley used to make a .22 centre fire!
Fred.

The recently published "The Classic British Rook & Rabbit Rifle" by Colin Greenwood (2006) has a nice discussion of "The 22 Long Rifle Central-Fire".  A 22 Long CF appeared around 1899, and the 22 LR CF a few years later.  They were available up to 1937 or so.  Apparently they were used in "Morris Tubes", conversion units for large bore rifles.  By using a CF case, the conversion unit could be simpler and cheaper.  If the attached picture comes through, it shows a 22 LR CF solid, a 22 LR CF HP, and a sectioned case.  The cases had a deep cannelure near the base to support the primer.
Doug Nelson
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Green_Frog
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #8 - Oct 28th, 2007 at 8:44am
 
Doug, that's a really neat little cartridge!  It was "reinvented' in the 1930s when Charles Askins wanted to get a leg up on the competition in CF class of Bullseye Pistol.  He made a .22 CF gun out of a reworked Woodsman and made cases out or a French cartridge called the "Velo Dog" which was a longer 5.6 mm (or so) revolver cartridge.  His cartridge was outlawed with the "larger than .32" rule and the whole project died.  It might be interesting to build a Velo Dog low-wall or Ballard, though!  Roll Eyes

DWS, I missed the part about 22-25 completely.  I think that series of cartridges was more likely POST-Hornet (in the '30s??) while the .22 Maynard would have been in the earlier time frame and perhaps chambered in various Stevens rifles after they absorbed the defunct Maynard Rifle Co.  Otherwise, I would vote for .22 WCF or 218 Bee as factory loads and plead ignorance on any other early low powered .22 CF that was not a factory loading.  Undecided

Froggie
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Doug_Nelson
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #9 - Oct 28th, 2007 at 11:51am
 
GF,  I believe that Velo Dog is virtually identical to the .22 Maynard and the .22 CCM (Cooper Center-fire Magnum), though the CCM uses a .224 bullet.  I don't know why, but I have a strong desire to get a .22 Maynard. A couple of years ago, Gary Quinlan had a beautiful Maynard with a full length scope in 22 Maynard, and the bore was excellent.  Alas, I just didn't have the money at the time.  The funny thing is, I KNOW that when I buy a .22 Maynard and get it running at considerable expense, and spend a great deal of time trying different bullets and loads, I will have a gun that isn't nearly as good as a .22 LR.  Nevertheless, the itch is there!

I had forgotten that story about Charles Askins.  IIRC, he was so angry that he resigned from the border patrol.

Doug
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rimfire
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #10 - Oct 28th, 2007 at 7:44pm
 
wasn't the 22ccm almost identical to one of the Stevens 22cf artridges.
I thought that when TC was offering that chambering in their contender bbls that someone mentioned that the 22ccm could also could be shot in one of the old Stevens chamberings.  Can't remember which one.  u all have a good day now - the rimfire - cdpersons
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Green_Frog
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #11 - Oct 28th, 2007 at 8:40pm
 
rimfire,

     I think the Stevens .22 CF loading you are referring to is the one I mentioned in a previous post.  Stevens bought the assets of the old Maynard Rifle Co and made a rifle called the "Maynard Jr" which was at best a pale imitation of its namesake, but also used a couple of the more popular small bore Maynard chamberings including the .22 Maynard and the .25-20 SS. I don't know whether they had more than one .22 CF chambering.

Froggie
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #12 - Oct 28th, 2007 at 9:09pm
 
The "Hardwood's Hornet"  or .22-20 was the .25-20 Single Shot necked down to .226" with a longer neck than one sees on the .22-3000 or 2R Lovell.  It was a proprietary black powder/lead bullet proposition made up mostly on Stevens 44 rifles by Reuben Harwood in his gunsmithing shop in the 1890's.  Harwood supplied the shells, swages, bullets, loading info, etc. to the customers who bought the rifles.  The only proprietary Stevens .22 centerfire was the blackpowder .22-15-60, a long skinny case like an anorexic .25-25.

These calibers were the cutting edge of technology in those days; the relatively large charges of blackpowder and the small bore made them the choice of only the dyed-in-the-wool cranks who liked to mess and tinker and finagle as much as they liked to shoot.  I've seen only a few .22-15-60 rifles and never a Harwood Hornet, in over 30 years of gunshow attendance.

I've never seen a Stevens catalog offering of the .22 Maynard center fire nor the .22 WCF chambering, but anything was possible back in those days.
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Brent
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #13 - Oct 28th, 2007 at 9:33pm
 
Boy they sure do sound interesting. 

Is there any information on how well they performed?  Particularly with black.

Perhaps a better way to ask that question is - do these .22s show up in the win/place/show columns of any match results?

Brent

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Green_Frog
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #14 - Oct 28th, 2007 at 10:53pm
 
I've done a cursory search tonight (Buff Arms, OWS, etc) for the .22 Cooper and have had no luck.  Anybody know where there are some in old stock or whatever.  Now you've got me curious!  Tongue

Froggie

PS  If I could get a couple of samples...empty case or live round, it would help ease the pain.  Anybody?  Undecided
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #15 - Oct 28th, 2007 at 11:18pm
 
the only hornet worth a poop is the 25hornet.. a work in progress.. Cry

tt.g
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #16 - Oct 28th, 2007 at 11:33pm
 
Green_Frog wrote on Oct 28th, 2007 at 10:53pm:
I've done a cursory search tonight (Buff Arms, OWS, etc) for the .22 Cooper and have had no luck.  Anybody know where there are some in old stock or whatever.  Now you've got me curious!  Tongue

Froggie

PS  If I could get a couple of samples...empty case or live round, it would help ease the pain.  Anybody?  Undecided


Froggie, I don't have a secret source of 22 CCM (they also made a 17 CCM on the same case).  However, the cases were made for Cooper by Fiocchi using their Velo-dog cases.  If you can't find 22 CCM, you can probably locate some Fiocchi Velo-dog (according to Midway USA it is "coming soon").

I gather that the 22 CCM was not a success.  When I had the opportunity to buy a Cooper 22 CCM, I called Cooper to find out more about it.  They actually discouraged me from buying it, recommending a 22 WMR or Hornet instead.

Doug
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BP
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #17 - Oct 29th, 2007 at 1:30am
 
The cobwebs are thick, but I remember seeing a Stevens catalog cut for the 44 action series in the higher grade versions listing the 22-10 UMC cartridge as one of the special order chamberings. I'm wondering whether the 22-10 UMC equates with the 22-10-45 Maynard ExL CF, or the .22 WCF, or possibly neither??
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #18 - Oct 29th, 2007 at 10:01pm
 
22CCM link (hope this works)

http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rifle/Standarddata(Rifle)/22...

I've seen the Stevens 22-15-60 centerfire round chambered in the 44 1/2 and also in a 94 Favorite, barrel markings on both rifles were 22-15 SS.
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38_Cal
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #19 - Oct 30th, 2007 at 12:08am
 
Problem is, the .22 CCM is obsolete, and no more is available from Cooper Arms.  It's a little bit longer (and slightly different body dimensions) than the 5.6 Velo Dog, and shorter than the 22-15.  Anyone got any .22 CCM brass for sale?  Or Velo Dog brass?  I have a few Cooper cases, and was planning on building a Martini 12/15 into a .22 Cooper...just to be different.   Wink

David
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #20 - Oct 30th, 2007 at 6:41am
 
I wonder if anyone ever tried the .22 RF (1903) Winchester Automatic rifle round, in a single shot rifle?

To the best of my recollection it was made slightly larger in dia and also longer then the the .22 RF long Rifle round so it couldn't be chambered in the standard .22 RF chamber.

As far as I am aware only the Winchester Automatic rifle was commercially chambered for it. I suppose the .22 WMR is a later and similar round in size.

Modern .22 WAR made ammo is available from Buffalo Arms but at $14.95 a box of 50 it isn't cheap. Still, if you have a 1903 WAR gathering dust somewhere it may be worth buying a box or two to get the old rifle working again.

My apologies for sidetracking this thread.

Harry
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« Last Edit: Oct 30th, 2007 at 6:47am by harry_eales »  
 
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tim_s
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Re: old .22 CF cartridge question
Reply #21 - Nov 6th, 2007 at 11:30am
 
There are a couple .22CCMs for sale out there and they are wonderfull. Cabela's hascone with dies etc. The .17 CCM is better, however. Brass has been a problem but it's out there if you look. Don Shroeder in Cal. makes brass out of turned hornet cases at a reasonable price. I have a Cooper 38 in 17CCM and it will shoot 20 gr Bergers @3200fps with 9.2 gr of AA1680.
  The R2 Lovell is wonderfull as well wvry underrated. Brass can be challanging if you're looking for the good G&H 22-3000 stuff but cases formed from 25-20 work well. I will push a Calhoon 37gr. slug over 3000fps out of a Dubeil HB highwall that will shoot around 1/2". This stuff is fun. If I can help let me know.
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