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Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt (Read 4296 times)
DoublesSS
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Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Apr 14th, 2008 at 9:17am
 
I recently ordered a Uberti High Wall from Dixie Gun in 45 Colt. They were the only distributor I found who has a Uberti 1885 in that caliber.

(Rationale:  I wanted that caliber as we have off-hand competitions at 50, 75, and 100 yard targets only and I wasn't anxious to spend the extra time and money to get "rifle" black powder cartridge like 38-55 or 45-70 .. they must be loaded single stage as oppossed to progressive and over the tears my fingers have become "brass-sensitive". The bullets cost more for those calibers, as does the brass. And finally I didn't want to be forced to cast the bullets .. the 45 Colt has a wide variety if readily available bullets of different configurations, weights and diameters.)

I found that the Uberti doesn't eject the spent case (usually). It will extract it the 1/4" or so but usually there is so much spent powder blow-back on the case that you can't extract it with your fingers. I used a wooden dowel stick thru the muzzle to punch it out.  One other anomaly ... as I looked at the barrel from the breech one of the lands appearred not to have been throated. It just came to an abrupt end at the chamber leaving a sharp edge for the bullet to overcome rather than a ramped transition to the rifling. I had presummed a rotary cone was used to form the barrel throat so I was at a complete loss to understand how just one land was as described.(?)

I've returned the rifle to Dixie. They were quite prompt and accomodating but advised that they noticed the blow-back situation on two other highwalls they had in stock (in 45 Colt) as well as the mentioned extraction problem.

The Uberti HighWalls in 45-70 or 38-55 don't have these issues. Recognizing the pressures of a 45 Colt are notably less than the others, should that alone be reason for this? Shouldn't the chamber dimensions be tight enough so the case effectively seals the chamber and prevents spent-powder blow-back?  Your thoughts would be appreciated.
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screwloosetc
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #1 - Apr 14th, 2008 at 9:50am
 
hi
I have a low wall in 45 colt that shoots real well. have u done a chamber cast. u need to talk to the Uberti customer service in maryland.
they replaced a 30/3o I had with a bad bore with another hand picked rifle. what load are u using?
I also have a schofield in long colt. and with slower powders blowback is terrible. better with faster powder. Im using unique in pistol and 2400 in rifle want to try rifle with heavy bullet and duplex blk. I have an article with a guy shooting 500 gr bullets from a ruger black hawk with a lot of sucess. i will size some 457124 bullets sized to the 45 colt bore i want to try breach seated. I would think with the proper charge I should be able to shoot the same bullets after sizing I shoot in my 45/70 if i breech seat. I dont think I will like the recoil though as the lowall is light with the hooked butplate it is theit scheutzen model. 300 gr. get ur attention.
Tom
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DoublesSS
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #2 - Apr 14th, 2008 at 5:12pm
 
Thanks Screwloose .. Uberti customer svc in Md is for those rifles imported by Stoeger only, ("Before contacting our customer service team, please verify that your Uberti firearm was imported by Stoeger in Accokeek Maryland.) Mine is imported by Dixie Gun Works and, as I noted, they were the only Uberti importer I found that had an 1885 in 45Colt.

I've used several loadings. Titegroup powder always seems to produce the tightest groups (well named). Yes, Titegroup consistently beats Unique which has been the ever-popular 45 caliber standby for generations. On heavy loads (300gr. Jacketed at higher pressure loadings) I favor 2400. No matter .. all produce similar amounts of residue blow-back on spent cases in my Highwall.

I've not made a chamber casting. Don't want to as it serves no purpose; either Uberti did it well or they didn't. When Dixie tells me that mine and two other new rifles out-of-the-box have the same characteristic, well .. it's kind-of-a moot point.

My posting was to question whether y'all thought it appropriate that there was any blow-back at all on a load generating factory pressures or greater. When a 45-70 or a 38-55 case comes out clean, why shouldn't a 45 Colt?
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montana_charlie
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #3 - Apr 14th, 2008 at 6:15pm
 
If your cases came from Starline, they might need to be annealed.  That is also true when 45/70 is the cartridge and the chamber is known to be correct.

Since you prefer to not cast your chamber, you'll just have to wonder if you have a 'fat chamber' or 'hard brass' problem...
CM
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« Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2008 at 6:22pm by montana_charlie »  

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screwloosetc
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #4 - Apr 14th, 2008 at 11:28pm
 
EXACTLY IM NOT SURE THE PROBLEM IS IN THE CHAMBER.
TOM
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screwloosetc
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #5 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 9:29am
 
MY CURIOSITY GOT THE BEST OF ME THIS MORNING. MY STARRET SMALL HOLE GAUGE TOLD ME THE CHAMBER IN MY RIFLE IS .482.
THE SCHOFIELD TAPERED .480 FRONT .485 REAR ALL CYLINDERS. NO PROBLEM WITH EITHER EXTRACTING. LYMAN SAYS 45 LC STARTS AT .480 DIA. IM USING STARLINE AND WINCHESTER BRASS. U MIGHT WANT TO POLISH SOME TAPER INTO UR CHAMBER IF U KNEW WHAT ITS DIMENTIONS ARE. THIS IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE. AS FOR BLOW BY ANEAL THE BRASS IF UR CHAMBER IS IN TOLERANCE. WHAT KIND OF GROUPS IS THIS THING SHOOTING? MINE PUTS THE 300GR HORN.HP INTO 2" AT 100.
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mriisj
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #6 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:57am
 
Hi

I have a Uberti 1873 .45LC and have the same problem, when I talked to the representive of Uberti I was told that it was due to the straight brass, the .44-40 does not have the same problem I was told and seem right I have a fellow there have one in .44-4o and it does not have the problem.

My barrel had a defect in the chamber and had the barrel changed at Uberti at my own costs, that did not help a bit on the problem with fueling etc. on the outher side of the brass and actually a little is blown backwords to my face giving me a lot of freckles.

After reading this thread I will thry some faster burning BP and annealed my brass, I will be back with the results within the next weeks.

My current load is 35gr. SCH3, bullet RCBS 82049, barrel is 30"

Michael
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DoublesSS
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #7 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 11:08am
 
Tom & CM .. I apologize for my arrogance. You both are right .. I should check the chamber dimensions (if I had a simple way to do that.) My extracted brass is .482 at the largest point near the head of the case. That doesn't seem excessive, but it doesn't mean that is the chamber dimension either. I've used WW and R-P brass. No difference in performance.

Tom: 2" @ 100 yards. I'm shooting with a tang sight and I gotta tell ya .. I can't see 2" at a 100 yards. All I can say is that @ 50 yds it'll put 5 shots in just under 2" and that's about as good as I can see. Keep in mind the "unthroated" land issue as well. That's probably why it loved the jacketed bullets, kinda liked the copper plated ones, and couldn't shoot lead bullets (cast & Oregon Trail LaserCast) worth a hoot.

I'll have to get a tutorial on making chamber castings and give it a try.  Thanks.   Stan
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montana_charlie
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #8 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 1:42pm
 
DoublesSS wrote on Apr 15th, 2008 at 11:08am:
Keep in mind the "unthroated" land issue as well.

That discovery is certainly grounds for returning the rifle without further ado.  And, like you, I can't imagine how such a condition could occur.

But, out of simple curiosity (if nothing else) I would have had to cast that 'blowback' chamber...just to know what it looked like.
CM
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Green_Frog
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #9 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 4:20pm
 
I agree with my Montana namesake.  If Dixie is "blowing smoke" (pun intended) then there must have been a bad reamer or something involved to have at least three rifles of the same caliber come out of the Uberti factory at about the same time with an obvious flaw in their chambering.  I would indeed expect them to expect Uberti to make all of them, but especially your one of them, right.  This is not a good image for either the importer nor for the manufacturer to have out there.  Usually both of these companies have been quite responsive to their customers when there has been a legitimate complaint.  Undecided

Charlie, the Green Frog

PS  I would cast a slightly overlength chamber cast to get to the throat area.  I believe you will probably find there is a burr there in the throat, not an uncut area.  A reamer with a chipped tooth and a slightly careless worker could conceivably give that problem on a series of chambers if QC didn't catch it.   Huh
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Paul_F.
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #10 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 5:16pm
 
I had a very simillar experience with a "Pedretti and Sons" Italian Sharps 1874 in .45-70.  THe chamber and the bore did not share the same centerline (by about .030"!).

I came to the conclusion that there is no way that rifle was chambered with a REAMER. It was chambered with a boring bar, on a lathe (CNC unless the cost of labor in Italy is WAY less than I think).
And, the barrel was not chucked true when the Italian gent pushed "Cycle Start".

It went to the importers warranty station gunsmith shop (a well known black powder and BPCR supplier, whose name I will not mention publically.. PM me if you feel it's important).
They didn't bother to open the breech and LOOK down thre bore.. The defect was visible on the most CURSORY examintion.
And yet, they managed to crown the muzzle, slug the bore and provide me with the measurements, and re-harden the sear.  None of which had anything to do with the problem.

They sent it back to me that way.
I promptly sent the rifle back to the Importer for satisfaction...
Fourteen months later, I got it back repaired properly.
To the importers credit, they threatened to withhold payment from Pedretti and Sons for an entire container load of rifles if my replacement barrel was not shipped immediately (well, immediately after the owner had spent 6 months calling them).

Anyway...
The importer should be willing and able to "take the case" so to speak, and make certain the manufacturer makes good.

I have to wonder if the Lathe operator from Pedretti and Sons got a job at Uberti...


Paul F.

Edited to append a "PS";
PS: said trained monkeys do NOT work for Buffalo Arms!  Just wanted to make sure no one thinks I'm referring to them when I say "a well known black powder and BPCR supplier"!
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screwloosetc
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #11 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 5:23pm
 
I think i wouldmake a couple of casts. On for myselfe and another to push the issue of the bad chamber if it is bad with Dixie and Uberti.
I cant be happier with the service I got from Stoger. They even returned my old butstock which I had cut for a recoil pad when they exchanged my rifle. It would be easier to mail pictures of a cast than mail gun. Resolve the issue then mail gun. if u still have a land left the chamber is off center a cast will confirm this. I dont know if Uberti shows preference between destributers or not. My 45/70 is a Navy Arms and the 30/30 is Stoger. quality is the same. Lots of luck.
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DoublesSS
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #12 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 6:28pm
 
Fellas .. As I had mentioned, I returned the rifle. Dixie offered to refund or replace it. I chose a replacement. That rifle was received today. The throat area seems normal on this one.  We'll see how it shoots in upcoming days. I've been forewarned so I don't expect any improvement in the ejection situation. I believe Michael hit it on the head; Since the 45 Colt case is not even slightly tapered this may be endemic with rifles of this caliber that don't fully extract the spent shell.  Thanks Guys.
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38_Cal
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #13 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 7:42pm
 
I no longer have access to the SAAMI chamber/ctg drawings, but if I remember correctly, the case has no taper base to mouth and the chamber has about .002" on the .45 Colt.  My daughter tells me that I don't have "part timers" or "old timers", but since my hair is going (as she puts it) silver blond, I can lay claim to blond moments!   Roll Eyes

David
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David Kaiser
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #14 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 9:40pm
 
DoubleSS, remember also that unless you have a .22 rf, the high- and low-wall Winchesters don't have ejectors, rather they have extractors that simply start the case out of the chamber.  With the normal tapered and shouldered cases used in these rifles, that gets them freed up pretty well to just about drop out, but  if, as we have seen in the .45 Colt, there is no taper to the case or chamber, this little bit of movement really is not enough to help all that much!  Undecided

Here's hoping your new example will solve the worst of your problem, anyway.

Froggie
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #15 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:08pm
 
Quote:
... usually there is so much spent powder blow-back on the case that you can't extract it with your fingers.

DoubleSS - the product to resolve blowback shooting 45's with BP is ... The Lee Factory Crimp Carbide Die!  And a hard crimp!
http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item.asp?sku=0000690865

Been shooting Cowboy Action for years, using 45 Colts with BP ... thousands of them.  Using the Lee die - my spent cases have a smidge of powder marks from blowback.  My loads are 35gr FFg and 250gr - 454's.  Use a soy wax based lube and you'll have to do less patching for good 100yd shot accuracy

Would also recommend using 454 bullets instead of the 452's.  They seal the chamber better and are an additional plus to reducing blowback

An example of easy ejection - when I dump the cylinders of my Ruger Vaqueros - I just tap the bottom of the pistol grip on the unloading table and the spent cases - fall out.  Well, some times there is a stubborn one and the ejector rod pushes it out easily Wink  As for rifle ejection - all my levers have NEVER had an ejection failure. 

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« Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2008 at 10:28pm by John Boy »  

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John Corney
 
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waterman
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #16 - Apr 15th, 2008 at 11:11pm
 
Read the above thread with interest. My friend has a Cimmaron (Uberti?) sorta-replica of a Colt Lightning slide-action rifle and a spaghetti-Winchester 92, both in .45 Long Colt.  He describes similar problems, as well as a proclivity to lead.  Any connection?
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DoublesSS
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #17 - Apr 16th, 2008 at 7:46pm
 
Here's the update on the replacement rifle ...   All the lands are "throated" properly, and 95% of the time the extractor pops it out and the spent shell can be pulled clear with my fingers or, once in a while, it tosses the spent case out all the way. 5% of the time I had difficulty extracting the case but that was due to exceeding the "no lead" limit. A round or two of jacketed or copper plated at lower speed would then clean-er-out and it was good-to-go again.

The Uberti High Wall has a 1-in-18" twist and is particularly prone to leading as opposed to my Puma 1892 (also 45 Colt) with its 1-in-30" twist. I wonder why their twist rates are so dramatically different? Don't be confused .. the first High Wall had a stuck-case issue with any loading.

So again, I thank you all for your thoughts and comments. Meanwhile, I'll ponder the situation but for now I suspect the real culprit here was the errant barrel throating.

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John Boy
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #18 - Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:35am
 
Quote:
Read the above thread with interest. My friend has a Cimmaron (Uberti?) sorta-replica of a Colt Lightning slide-action rifle and a spaghetti-Winchester 92, both in .45 Long Colt.  He describes similar problems, as well as a proclivity to lead.  Any connection?

Waterman:  I too have a Taurus Thunderbolt and a EMF '92 made by Rossi - both in 45 Colt.  All the reloads are 454's and crimped with the Lee Carbide  roll crimp die.

Neither of the rifles generates any leading and the blowback is between nill and minor.  The '92 has probably 8000+ rounds shot through it and nearly all the reloads are blackpowder.

Many Cowboy Action Shooters using 45's complained about blowback until they started using the Lee die.

DoubleSS - where is the leading with the Uberti ... near the chamber - middle of the bore or near the muzzle.  Most causes of leading are due to using too high a powder charge ( leading near the chamber) - too small a diameter bullet ( middle of the bore) or lube starvation (near the muzzle)

You might want to slug the bore and start eliminating the leading problem from that known
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John Corney
 
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DoublesSS
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #19 - Apr 17th, 2008 at 12:23pm
 
John Boy .. The leading occurs just forward of the chamber, in the barrel's throat. I'm aware of the cause of that situation which is why I'd clean'er out with a reduced load of a copper plated or jacketed bullet.

I've read your comments on the .454 bullets with interest. I'll try it but I suspect the pressure profile for BP is different than that of the TiteGroup powder I've been using.

I believe I'll use my lead bullet loads on the 1-in-30" 1892 and use jacketed or plated bullets for the 1-in-18" High Wall.
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #20 - Apr 17th, 2008 at 1:33pm
 
Just re-reading parts of this thread.  An 18" twist is appropriate for a 45-70, not a .45 Colt...Did you slug the bore?  What groove diameter did you get?  .45 Colt should be .452" to .454", 45-70 would mike at about .458".  A .45 Colt reamer with a "normal" pilot of about .445" could very easily run off center, especially if it was held rigidly in a lathe tailstock chuck and the barrel was not indicated perfectly on center. 

David
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David Kaiser
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #21 - Apr 17th, 2008 at 2:15pm
 
David .. It's a .452 bore .. The Uberti 45-70 High Wall has a 1-in-21" twist. But you make an interesting point relative to reamer being off-center. I, myself, have been off-center for many years now .. just ask my wife.
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« Last Edit: Apr 17th, 2008 at 2:22pm by DoublesSS »  
 
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #22 - Apr 17th, 2008 at 2:50pm
 
Thompson Center is famous (infamous?) for using undersized pilots, and reaming chambers off-axis.  A friend has had four (at latest count) barrels for her .357 Mag. Contender, none of them has had the chamber in line with the bore!  I'm just about ready to take her barrel and line it so that she can get some accuracy...and so I don't have to hear her grumble!   Roll Eyes

David
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #23 - Apr 17th, 2008 at 4:59pm
 
Funnily enough, it seems that many manufacturers use non-piloted reamers for faster production. It was hard for me to believe at first but over the years I've seen entirely too many off-center factory chambers and so now I've become a believer. Bah.
Regards, Joe
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Re: Problem w Uberti HighWall in 45 Colt
Reply #24 - May 14th, 2008 at 4:34am
 
FWIW I have done some testing on my Uberti 45LC I used to use 35gr SCH 3 (2fg) with lots of fueling and have now tested it with 3gr SL VihtaVuori N-120 and 31gr SCH2 (3fg) the fueling has been reduced to almost none and accurcy has increased.

Next test is to use the Lee crimp and some SCH1 (4fg) instedt of the SL VihtaVuori for starter, have anyone tested this kind of duplex loads?

Michael
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