Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
  By continuing to use the forum you are agreeing to the updated Forum Rules. If you do not agree with the updated Forum Rules you may close your account.
  HomeHelpSearchMember MapLoginRegister ASSRA HomePage  
 
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4
Send Topic Print
Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/2 (Read 6714 times)
creedmoormatch
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1341

Newcastle-on-Tyne, USA
Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/2
Jul 24th, 2008 at 1:40pm
 
If any of you experienced ASSRA folks had your choice between a Winchester or Browning High Wall (originals) vs. a CPA manuf. Stevens 44 1/2 reproduction, would you have a preference for one rifle over the other?

I am considering any of the classic cartridges from 32-40 WCF to include 38-55 or 40-65, but what I'm more interested in hearing from you about are the mechanics ( +  -- ) of the actions.  If your choice would be the high wall, would you favor either the Winchester over the Browning or vice versa, and why?

I really would like to know the good, the bad, and the ugly.  Thanks guys for your input.     Undecided     Undecided     Undecided
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
mdeland
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 97

Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #1 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 3:40pm
 
  Personally. having worked on all of them, I would go with the Winchester high wall of the choices given and prefer the Uberti re-design of the high wall with the bushed rebound firing pin. The Browning is not a high wall at all on the inside and the Stevens has that angled firing pin that I am not fond of. The Pedersoli may be the best of them all but cannot say for sure until I can get one apart. They use the Uberti action with a few mods of their own and would like to get a look at the guts of one.
  Pedersoli needs a double set trigger to go with the long finger lever shown on the current offering  because all they have now is a single and single set trigger.  A "close couple" set would be another nice option. I did a complete overhaul on my Uberti an added a CC set trigger that I like a lot. I did this so I could have a set trigger that would fit in the single trigger finger lever that came with the gun. I didn't much like the design of the single set trigger shown in DeHaas book so I built the cc set instead. MD
I'll try to get a picture or two on here so what was done can be shown. MD
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Schuetzendave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Tune Your Rifle: Make
Her Sing

Posts: 1313

St. Albert, Alberta, Canada
Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #2 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 4:07pm
 
Just about every single shot collector or shooter has very kind and affectionate feelings for a 1885 Winchester Highwall. However when it comes time to get the utmost out of a HighWall or LowWall, Schuetzen shooters have been known to:

1. Bush the firing pin and replace with a Neidner to better handle new primers and increase safety in the event of a split case

2. Replace the flat spring with a coil spring and lighten the hammer to increase lock time. This also allowes you to use a hanger to free float the barrel.

3. Modify the stock for a through bolt setup to better stabilize the rear stock.

Never having taken a new Browning apart I have yet to understand the comments I have heard regarding the number of parts that make them up.

The CPA 44 1/2 and the Winchester Highwalls both have nice set triggers when properly adjusted.

The angled design of the Stevens 44 1/2 firing pin is considered to be a bit more prone to breakage but most shooters say this is fairly infrequent and replacement pins are readily availlable from CPA.

I believe the Stevens 44 1/2 design is not quite as fast for lock time but we need some experts to say if it is at all significant.

Does the Stevens 44 1/2 design cam in a case like a 1885?

The CPA version of the 44 1/2 is thicker than an original 44 1/2 and can handle bigger cartridges and or higher loads than the original.

Regardless I would be happy to have any of these actions; although a fully modified 1885 (which has already been destroyed as a collectors firearm) is still my preference.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
mdeland
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 97

Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #3 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 4:51pm
 
  The Stevens do have some caming force to seat the case and may be a bit better at it than the High-wall. I have a shooting buddy that likes the switch barrel feature of the Shuttleworth Stevens and does very well with his gun and six different calibers and barrels he currently has. She does have a tendency to misfire in cold weather and I am not sure he has that bug fixed yet. I had two other friends with them and they got tired of having to send them back to the maker to be fixed for various things. They both sold there Stevens. Never have had any trouble with Winchester high or low walls in this regard or even heard of it. The Brownings are quite reliable but have no set triggers. They are no fun to reassemble either unless you have some specific tools for the job.
The trigger fix for them seems to work alright with the set screw through the thru-bolt hole in the action but is not as good as a set trigger which is not available for them to my knowledge. I don't like the under barrel hanger for the forearm as well as it leaves the wood to thin at the action interface and very often is seen cracked at this point. MD
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Dave_Carpenter
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 50

Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #4 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 4:58pm
 
We all have our likes and dislikes and experiences, here are mine.  Every Stevens 44 ˝ I have ever used needed a new firing pin or had a broken one when I got it, this has been true with both rimfire and centerfire.  The hammer is also in the way when trying to clean from the breech. I have no experience with the new ones so I have no idea if this has been fixed.

I like high-walls but don’t like either the close-coupled or the double-set-trigger I like the single-set-trigger the best. If you change the firing pin to a Niedner you cannot use a coil spring without a LOT of work and timing. In order for the spring in the Niedner firing pin to retract the pin the pressure has to be off the hammer, this happens when you first move the lever on a flat spring, not so with the coil spring.

Two days ago I saw the guts of the breechblock and trigger of a new Winchester/Browning Creedmoor and how they were built and work.  I would never ever buy one of these.  These are made for the black-powder crowd and one would think that sooner or later the owner would like to drop out the breech-block and clean things, what a mess.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Quarter_Bore
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Online


LIFE'S TOO SHORT TO SHOOT
AN UGLY RIFLE

Posts: 784

Warsaw         LIFE MEMBER #14, Indiana, USA
Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #5 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 6:19pm
 
I own both original Hiwalls and original 44 1/2s. As far as worksmanship goes the Winchester is hands down the better built rifle. That being said my favorite rifles are Stevens 44 1/2's. I have owned quite a few over 35 years and have only had 1 with a broken firing pin, and I shoot them a lot. Maybe I'm just lucky. I guess my advice would be that if you had to have a switch barrel rig I would get a 44 1/2 with double set triggers. If that is not an issue I think you will be pleased with a Winchester, especially if you can get one with double set triggers. Again I have owned all trigger types and found all reliable. The wide spaced double sets just seem a little handier to use and to get a light pull. I would avoid so called reproduction rifles such as the Browning and New Winchester- I don't think you'll be pleased with the complicated workings or the triggers. If you were to examine an original(and its inards) against a repro. I think you will see the difference. If you have no other choice I guess a repro. will get you by until you can afford a good rifle.
Back to top
 

Founder of the Quarter Bore Corps
ASSRA- founded to promote fellowship among those interested in the use, study, and preservation of single shot rifles devel. betwn the end of the Civil War and WW I
Quarter_Bore Quarter_Bore  
IP Logged
 
mdeland
Full Forum Member
***
Offline



Posts: 97

Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #6 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 7:31pm
 
That is another thing I like about the Uberti re-design. It uses a coil spring for the hammer and the link cams it back at first movement. I don't really care for the flat spring for the finger lever though but it does work smoothly if kept greased. It needs a roller on the spring in my opinion.
  The new block holds the firing pin captive from the front via the bushing that needs no spanner wrench to remove. It uses two fillister head screws. It has no threaded hole from the back of the block as a Mann-Niedner conversion. It is a much simpler and stronger design for handling gas pressure. Also there is no cut out at the lower, back of the block for a mechanical firing pin cam as in the originals. It no doubt was inspired by the virtues of the Mann- Niedner conversion but is nicely improved in my opinion. Gas escapement to the rear is blocked by a 90 degree collar on the firing pin against a corresponding shoulder milled into the block tunnel from the front.
  The one thing I don't like about the Uberti is that one must remove the stock to drop the breech block. Changing a pin though may take all of five minutes on a cold day once the block is removed.  The pin is so short and stout though being cylindrical in all it's shape with no cut outs, that it would be practically impossible to break if made of the right material. MD
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Ex Member
*****


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #7 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 8:06pm
 
I guess I'm lucky too, as I've owned a lot of Stevens, and never had a broken firing pin, or a misfire with the angled pin. I love the strength and fitting of the original Winchester Hi Wall, but I like the switch barrels, and better camming of the Stevens 44 1/2.
The set triggers on my Stevens stay adjusted better than the set triggers on my 1885's.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
creedmoormatch
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1341

Newcastle-on-Tyne, USA
Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #8 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:33pm
 
Thanks for all the input from your experiences.  Actually, I have an opportunity to purchase a Browning N.I.B. 1885 rifle which was made in Japan and was seriously considering that rifle over the CPA-Stevens 44 1/2.  Am I correct from your alls posting that the Japaneese Browning 1885 is not even similiar to the orginals and is much more complicated in it's design.  I was under the impression that it was an original Browning design, but just made in Japan.  I guess I should pass on the Browning.   Wink   Wink
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Quarter_Bore
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Online


LIFE'S TOO SHORT TO SHOOT
AN UGLY RIFLE

Posts: 784

Warsaw         LIFE MEMBER #14, Indiana, USA
Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #9 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:33pm
 
Ya, I do like that camming action. I like to shoot base band bullets in larger calibers in my 44 1/2s and I can just use a wooden dowel stuck in an empty case as a breech seater. One less piece of equipment to lug around and I find the rifle shoots just as good as when I use a fancy "in line" bullet seater. I also like the triggers; and the stocks(on the higher grade rifles) seem to fit me better. But I guess I am talking about original 44 1/2's and not CPA's, so I'm off subject.
Back to top
 

Founder of the Quarter Bore Corps
ASSRA- founded to promote fellowship among those interested in the use, study, and preservation of single shot rifles devel. betwn the end of the Civil War and WW I
Quarter_Bore Quarter_Bore  
IP Logged
 
38_Cal
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2196

Montezuma, Iowa, USA
Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #10 - Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:48pm
 
creedmoormatch wrote on Jul 24th, 2008 at 10:33pm:
Thanks for all the input from your experiences.  Actually, I have an opportunity to purchase a Browning N.I.B. 1885 rifle which was made in Japan and was seriously considering that rifle over the CPA-Stevens 44 1/2.  Am I correct from your alls posting that the Japaneese Browning 1885 is not even similiar to the orginals and is much more complicated in it's design.  I was under the impression that it was an original Browning design, but just made in Japan.  I guess I should pass on the Browning.   Wink   Wink


From six feet away, side view, the Browning and Winchester Japanese made rifles look much like the originals.  Like the original Winchesters, they have an underlever and a vertically sliding breechblock, with a hammer behind it.  Otherwise, they are a completely different action.  If you want a modern copy of the Hi Wall, you're looking at Ballard, Meacham and C. Sharps, or the spaghetti rifles, which also differ from the originals, but not as much as the Browning and Winchester.  Given a choice of only the Japanese rifles and the CPA, I would go for the CPA in a heartbeat.

David
Montezuma, IA
Back to top
 

David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
 
IP Logged
 
rapud
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 36

Whitehall, Pa, USA
Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #11 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 12:55am
 
I have an original Hiwall in 32-40,with cc set triggers and a new Badger barrel.  Its a fun rifle and brings a lot of attention at shoots.  Its accuracy is not bad, but not minute of angle.  On the other hand I have two CPA's with 4 barrels.  The .22 is as good a shooter as my Anshutz 2007 at less than a minute at 50 and 100 yds.  The 38-55 is minute of angle, as is the .32 Miller.  The barrel changing is a big plus, and takes less than 2 minutes.  Change from centerfire to rimfire in less than 5 minutes.  All at the range if you choose to.  The breech seating is effortless, and the double set triggers are superb.  You can dryfire to your hearts content with no damage to firing pin.  I broke a .22 firing pin after 5000 rounds and changed it myself in less than 10 minutes.  If you blow a primer and damage the breech block you just change the face insert, not the breech block.  Best of all, I like the saftey factor that when you chamber a round and close the block the hammer is not cocked to fire.  You can even dry fire the rifle with that round in the chamber.  You manually set the hammer when ready to fire.  For my money its not even a question which is the better rifle, the CPA. I have even changed stock styles to suit the shooting requirements .  It comes with all this right out of the box, no modifications reqd.  Plus you have Paul Shuttleworth at true gentleman and shooter. Smiley
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
J.D.Steele
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


NRA Life since '76

Posts: 1167

Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #12 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 8:35am
 
I agree with most of what's been said here, but would like to add one or two caveats.

A Japanese-made Browning or Winchester with the Badger barrel is possibly/probably the most accurate factory single shot of the three, due to the drawbolt buttstock attachment. Factory CPAs with pistol grips use wood screws for their buttstock attachment, which I consider totally UNsatisfactory. The original old Winchesters use standard machine screws in their tangs, better than the Stevens but not as good as the new Brownings or Japanese Winchesters with their drawbolts.

The switch-barrel feature of the CPAs is convenient and way cool, but please be advised that I've seen RF CPAs that would damage the chamber's edge when dry-fired. Again a situation that I consider totally unsatisfactory in a supposedly high-quality rifle.

All three types (original Winchester, CPA and Japanese Win copies) have issues that need correcting for the best performance and usablility. True, different issues with the different rifles, but still all three have issues that IMO will need at least some work to correct.
I personally use original Winchesters, good luck, Joe
Back to top
 

If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you can read this in English, thank a U.S. soldier!
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
ASSRA Journal Editor
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 2187

Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #13 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 8:40am
 
If you want a rifle designed by a lawyer get one of the new High Walls.
If you want a rifle designed by a shooter get a CPA.

40 Rod
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
creedmoormatch
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1341

Newcastle-on-Tyne, USA
Re: Pros & Cons of High Wall vs. CPA-Stevens 44 1/
Reply #14 - Jul 25th, 2008 at 10:45am
 
Thanks J.D. (Joe) for those comments...the draw bolt stock attachment is a plus and I was unaware that the Win. & Brownings from Japan had that feature.   Smiley  I orginally asked for pros and cons, so thanks for your comparision.  Someone said the Win High Wall "brings attention at shoots",   Roll Eyes  but that misses the point, since I will be making my purchase decision based on the potential capacity of the rifle to improve my score and therefore my satisfaction quotient.  I'm not looking for "all hat and no cattle" as we say out here.   Wink
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4
Send Topic Print