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An appropriate forum topic? (Read 4473 times)
waterman
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Re: An appropriate forum topic?
Reply #15 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 12:20pm
 
I have been loaned one of these rifles in slightly modified form.  Original Krag long rifle stock has been shortened to carbine dimensions.  Gap in fore-end left by "lightening cuts" has been filled.  Krag magazine & feed arm has been removed.  Gap in stock left by magazine gate has been filled with an almost-matching piece of walnut.  Stock is OK for shooting.

Bore looks quite good.  8 grooves with reported 18" twist.  Barrel was shortened to 25" and an issue 1903 front sight was fitted.

Issue rear sight has been replaced by a Pacific receiver sight.  That's a plus. It would be a lot better if you did not have to completely remove the rear sight to remove the bolt.  You must count clicks & pay attention when reassembling.

Trigger pull is AWFUL!  That's a double-minus, maybe more.

I am trying to find out how they shoot.  Here is a report to date.  1st trial was with CCI Target Shorts at 25 yards.  Used ASSRA 25-yard gallery targets.  From bench, I could keep all shots in the bull at which I aimed, but could not reliably hit the center of the bull.  Rifle will shoot 1.5" group most of the time.

With "Winchester CB Long Match" I could not reliably hit the bull at which I shot.  Groups may be as much as 3".

With Lapua Super Club, groups tightened to less than 1".  Maybe I could keep the shots in the 21-ring.  Wolf Match Extra was not quite as good.

I took the rifle to our Tuesday afternoon smallbore prone league.  At 50 yards, I could keep my shots in the 8-ring or better with Lapua Super Club. I had a lot of trouble with my aging eyes and that Springfield front sight blade.

Then I sighted in at 100 yards, using the 100-yard smallbore target.  From the bench, I could keep both Lapua SC and Wolf ME in the 8-ring.

3 of us tried it offhand at 100 yards.  Trigger pull is so bad that we all 3 ran out of breath.  After all the work on the rest of the rifle, why not work on the trigger?

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waterman
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Re: An appropriate forum topic?
Reply #16 - Jul 29th, 2010 at 12:39pm
 
More about my adventures with the Krag GPR. 

I used the rifle in our club's "South of the Border" match; iron sights & "Pancho Villa" era rifles, 40 shots at 100 yards.  Finished 4th out of 10 shooters.  It's fun to shoot.

I put the snap-on sight hood from my 03 onto the rifle.  Scores on the 100-yard smallbore target went from 80s to the low 90s, using Lapua SM.  The sight hood is a definite plus.

I went back to Brophy's 1903 Springfield book & Poyer's book on Krags.  Brophy said the early Springfield 22 experiments used .226 groove diameter bores.  Poyer said the early GPRs had .226 groove diameters and were chambered for 22 Extra Long and that later barrels were 22 LR and had .222 groove diameters.  I slugged the barrel.  8 grooves and .226" diameter.

Next I went to Boelter's "Rifleman's Guide to Rimfire Ammunition".  He reports on bullet diameters.  He reported that CCI Standard Velocity, CCI Green Tag, Lapua Midas L, Aguila Golden Eagle Target, and PMC Target had .225" or .226" bullets.  More about that stuff later.

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waterman
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Re: An appropriate forum topic?
Reply #17 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 1:40pm
 
Here are the results for Aguila Golden Eagle Target (the blue box) and Aguila Match Rifle (the black box).  All were 10-shot groups fired from a rest (Caldwell front, sandbag rear) at 50 yards.

Aguila Golden Eagle: 
#1: 2.9" w/ mean radius 0.95"
#2: 3.35" w/ mean radius 1.19"
#3: 2.0" w/ mean radius 0.72"

Aguila Match Rifle:
#1: 2.35" w/ mean radius 0.88"
#2: 1.8" w/ mean radius 0.56"
#3:  2.8" w/ mean radius 0.91"
#4: 1.9" w/ mean radius 0.65"
#5: 2.25" w/ mean radius 0.72"
#6:  3.15" w/ mean radius 0.88".  This from a cold barrel.
#7: 1.5" w/ mean radius 0.47"
#8: 1.95" w/ mean radius 0.59"

Pretty grim.  My Eric Johnson Ballard shoots groups in the .3s and .4s at this range.

Does anyone care about this stuff?
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38_Cal
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Re: An appropriate forum topic?
Reply #18 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 3:19pm
 
I'm finding it interesting reading.  Continue letting us in on what you find works and doesn't.  Sounds like the Aguila just is not consistent...same thing I found when testing their 60 gr. 22 l.r.

David
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David Kaiser
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waterman
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Re: An appropriate forum topic?
Reply #19 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 8:06pm
 
Of the 22 LR ammo with .225" or .226" bullets, PMC is no more.  It was made for the Korean firm (Poongsan Metals Corp, IIRC) by the same Mexican outfit that makes Aguila.  So maybe it is close to the Aguila Match Rifle.  I have some Green Tag and some CCI Standard Velocity, and most of a box of Lapua Midas L.  I'll shoot Lapua Super Club for control and maybe some Wolf Match Extra.  I'll have a try with some of that stuff next week.

Since this rifle may be chambered for Extra Long, I am trying to round up a couple of boxes of CCI Stingers.  But no luck so far.  22 RF is pretty much hit or miss in the sporting goods stores around here.

I have shot my Winder Musket chambered for 22 Short any number of times at 50 yards from the bench and usually get much better results.
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waterman
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Reply #20 - Jul 31st, 2010 at 8:15pm
 
Many of you have fond memories of how slick a Krag bolt action worked.  The insertion of the trip pin changes all that.  This Gallery Rifle does not have a smooth bolt at all.  Rather it has a herky-jerky feel, catching 2 or 3 times as I close the bolt.

But removing the magazine was a good idea.  The empties disappear into the void beneath the action.  When you are finished shooting, you open the bolt and turn the rifle upside down and shake it.  The empties come out like coins out of a piggy bank.
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boats
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Re: An appropriate forum topic?
Reply #21 - Aug 2nd, 2010 at 8:03am
 
Waterman it's interesting stuff.  Never run a test of my M1922 MII with good target ammo at 50 yards, If I can will run one to compare to your results.

I suspect a round forearm Aperture sighted rifle off the bench 1 inch is actually pretty good. I have shot many smaller groups Prone, coat & sling and glove with the Anschutz 54 but never was able to get good groups bench rest.  Probably because I am not good at bench, it's a different game entirely. However the ablity of the rifle to twist off the forearm is a pretty big handicap.  For some reason Rimfires are much more sensitive to bag handling than higher velocity rifles, in my experence anyway.

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waterman
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Re: An appropriate forum topic?
Reply #22 - Aug 2nd, 2010 at 10:43am
 
It has a post front, the standard 1903 Springfield setup with the snap-on hood.  So in that respect, it is much worse than if I had an aperture front.  The aperture rear is OK.

But a friend and I did an experiment we called "the 22 in the closet" in which we rounded up all the ordinary 22s that we owned and shot them at 50 yards off the bench.  Many did as well or better with open barrel sights and a few did worse.  The one that really impressed me was a Winchester 74 Gallery rifle in 22 Short. It shot a 1.22 " group.  The worst group was with the same rifle, using old Winchester ammo. It was something in excess of 7".

But the real problem here is the oversize bore.  Remember, it is a .226.  Poyer reported that later Krag Gallery Rifles had smaller bore diameters.  I don't have Brophy's Krag book.  If someone has it, please tell us what he reported.

I intend to run the same trials with a Remington 513T and a Springfield M2, just to see what happens.
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Re: An appropriate forum topic?
Reply #23 - Aug 2nd, 2010 at 11:18am
 
Waterman

I have Brophy's book in front of me. 7 pages on the rifles.  It raises more questions than answers

In the text he mentions the rifles were first chambered for the ".22 long cartridge"  Several photos of cartridge boxes from UMC and WRA labeled as for the 22 Krag Amory cartridge with no mention of short long or long rifle as we know today.

There is a measured diagram of a chamber insert to hold .22 cartridges perhaps that's were the inconsistent reporting of grove diameter came from. It's the insert not the barrel or chamber that's detailed.  It shows bore of .2285 as it comes out of the insert.

Give me a day  & I can take some photos of the pages and send to you as attached file. It has a lot of detailed pictures on the rifles configuration Put your email address on a PM to me

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Re: An appropriate forum topic?
Reply #24 - Aug 2nd, 2010 at 12:29pm
 
Will send e-mail address with PM. 

The cartridge insert was for a different rifle, a precursor to or test version of the Model 1903 Hoeffer-Thompson Gallery Practice Rifle.  They were trying to get a 22 conversion that would feed cartridges out of the service rifle's magazine.  Cartridge inserts were not limited to Springfield Armory experiments.  Both Winchester and Marble's made them for almost all the larger .30 & .32 center fires of the day.  They called them "Auxiliary Chambers".  They used .32 caliber revolver cartridges (32 S&W or 32 Colt).  The Winchesters have an 1899 patent date.

I read about the rifles using 22 Longs.  I tried them, but the accuracy was much worse than with either Shorts or Long Rifles.  In his 1903 Springfield book, Brophy has reproduced a shop drawing of the bore & groove specs.  The slugs from the barrel on the rifle I'm using match the shop drawing exactly, .219 bore, .226" groove diameters.  Drawing says "22 Long".  The drawing also says it is for a 1903 rifle, but it shows the same offset chamber as the Krag conversion.  The drawing is dated Oct. 1905, the same time that the first Krag GPR barrels were made.

Springfield also made a few (or maybe just one) conversions of the Model 1903 to function as a single shot just like the 1898 Krag GPR.  It had the same drawbacks, in that it was a single shot and could not be used for rapid fire training.
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Re: An appropriate forum topic?
Reply #25 - Aug 2nd, 2010 at 2:09pm
 
I have Brophy's Arsenal of Freedom too. It's a recap of the annual reports submitted by the Chief of Ordnance. Will have a look through tonight to see if it has any clues. At times it's pretty interesting other times dull figures. See anything worthwhile will copy with the other Brophy pages

Also will have a look at the 03 book sections

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