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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) German Schuetzen rifles (Read 14659 times)
mwhite49
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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #30 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 1:46pm
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Is there a chance that this is an older rifle with a newer barrel installed.
Here is a picture of some proof marks on the side of the action.
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #31 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 6:29pm
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MIke,  if its the 22rf, I'll bet a dollar to a donut-hole that it is a rebarrel.  I'm pretty sure mine is.  After discussion here and a very very careful examination it was if not obvious certain within reasonable doubt.

A the gun was certainly an nice older martini action schuetzen
B  the 22 rf did not become common or popular for target shooting in Germany until the 1920s, give or take a very few years
C  Very careful examination of the face of the breechblock by better and more experienced eyes than mine detected where the CF firing bin had been drilled out and very carefully bushed and redrilled for a new Rf firing pin.  

Biggi, in one of her comments somewhere on my 22 rf schuetzen thread comented on the location of one of the names on it and placed it in an area where the 22 was adopted early and earlier CF schuetzens are known to have been rebarreled to 22 rf.   That said the rebarrel was exquisitely done and very much looks "all-of-a-oiece" with the rest of the rifle.  Let's face it, those old German craftsmen were among the best in the world at their handcrafted trade---one of the things that makes their rifles such a thing of joy.
« Last Edit: Oct 21st, 2011 at 7:53pm by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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feuerbixler
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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #32 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 7:17pm
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I subsume the .22 small-bore history in Germany:

In 1896 there was founded a Flobert-Schutzenbund in the region of Frankfurt and Offenbach (in the west and middle of Germany). They shot with Flobert-6mm-rifles and small-bore-rifle looking like the target rifles. Beginning of the century they changed their name to "Mitteldeutscher Schützenbund" and shot probably only with .22 small-bore rifles. And those rifles seemed to have only the target rifle style with a big cheek-piece and with German double trigger. There were some hundred shooters who used such rifle in that region. I guess all the parts and probably the whole rifles came from factories in Thuringia (Suhl, Zella, Mehlis, St. Blasii) and were sold by gunsmiths in that mentioned region in Mitteldeutschland.

When the main movement of small-bore rifles started in Germany between 1908 and 1914, they used the international style of small-bore rifles, which was usable for three-position-competitions and without double trigger.

Then WWI stopped all efforts on small-bore rifle-shooting. When they started again round 1920 with .22 shooting, they changed to bolt action rifles and some dropping block rifles - but all of them with single trigger and sportive stock. Only some manufacturers offered the so-called "free-rifle" for other competitions, which had the target rifle style.

                     Biggi.   Smiley

  

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frnkeore
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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #33 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 7:45pm
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Hi Biggi,
Could you look at my 22 and tell me when you think it was made? The barrel was replaced by a popular american 22 barrel maker that was in business between 1920 and 1950 or so. It could have come here after either war. There are no marking on it anywhere.

Thank you,

Frank
  

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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #34 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 7:48pm
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With those two pics I cannot tell anything. You should show some proofmarks or if you know the maker.

                     Biggi.  Huh
  

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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #35 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 8:05pm
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Frank,  I know you didn't ask me  but.... Roll Eyes

your butt stock looks to my eyes like a 50's era American interpretation of a german schuetzen stock,  lower buttplate horn reduced almost entirely, the cheekpiece looks Amercianized ( part seems to have a Winch./Helm tinge to it---to me; and the checkering pattern looks 50'ish.  Looks kind of like it was created for a higher more upright head position for scope use rather than a low line for irons.    Certainly very well done and probably perfectly comfortable to shoot--for a range of different shooters.  
Perhaps better than many of the German originals since they were so deeply dished and fitted that unless you have a face with a somewhat similar configuration to the PO the won't feel "natural"

of course I could also be totally wrong Grin
  

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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #36 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 8:49pm
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Biggi,
There are no marks of any kind on my gun, inside or out. Not even a serial number. Under the barrel it's stamped "foreign action no number" and it's barrel #281 so, I'm going to say that it was rebarreled after WW1 so, I would have to say that it was made before WW1 and brought back here after WW1 to be rebarreled because of the low numbered barrel.

Would it fit into that time period?

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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #37 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 8:54pm
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Frank, I have to see the whole rifle, not only a snippet pic. A good picture with a bright background.

I think: If it would be produced in Germany, there would be a proof mark from a proof house somewhere on that rifle.

                 Biggi.  Roll Eyes

  

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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #38 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 9:29pm
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It's my belief that this rifle was reworked to fit the 10 lb small bore class. The barrel is 1 1/16 round by George Titherington of Stockton, CA and is only 20" long. I shoot it with a barrel weight attached to the muzzle. The butt plate was ground (to take the hooks off) and polished and I think it may have had a Tyrolian cheek piece that was reshaped to the contour that it has now. Only the parts that are pictured are original to the rifle. The fore stock and hanger for it are American made, too.

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mwhite49
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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #39 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 9:31pm
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The pictures are of the center fire model, and by looking at it I'm about 100% positive that it started out life as a 10 or 11MM target rifle by the width of the frame, newer frames are thinner in cross section. I have both of these the CF and the RF on Gunbroker now and my Ballard
Mike
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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #40 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 9:34pm
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One other thing is that the action is of the same "system" as my German CF rifle. You can find a full pic of both on the first or second page of the picture thread. The breech block is hinged on the lever and slides up into the frame. It may be a System Buchel but, I really don't know.

Frank
« Last Edit: Oct 21st, 2011 at 9:41pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #41 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 9:39pm
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Maybe you can place here a link to that - for me unknown - picture-thread? Don't have the time to check the whole forum for those picture thread.  Shocked

             Biggi.

  

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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #42 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 9:45pm
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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #43 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 9:56pm
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Maybe it's a German manufactured action for foreingn countries and was assembled in US with all those US parts?

Why do you think its rebarreled and completely converted to a rifle with American parts?

                         Biggi.  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: German Schuetzen rifles
Reply #44 - Oct 21st, 2011 at 10:07pm
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The Small bore (22 rf) matches were a big thing here in the 30's through the 60's and Americans have always tried to build something better than the other guy has. Titherington was one of the TOP barrel maker back in those days and his barrels were in high demand. The butt plate was diffidently modified to meet the rules (no hooked butt plates) and the action is of very high quality. I think someone was trying to put a rifle together that he thought would be better that the others that he shot with. We Americans like custom EVERYTHING.

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