Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
  Please visit the Announcements forum and read the updated Forum Rules.
  HomeHelpSearchMember MapLoginRegister ASSRA HomePage  
 
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
9.5X47R Bullets? (Read 5155 times)
John Boy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


ASSRA #10288

Posts: 1620

New Jersey, New Jersey, USA
9.5X47R Bullets?
Sep 21st, 2012 at 12:07am
 
Was the obsolete 9.5X47R bullet a stop ring like the 8.15X46R bullets?
Back to top
 

Regards
John Corney
 
IP Logged
 
jspencer
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 38

Mayfield, Utah, USA
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #1 - Sep 23rd, 2012 at 3:06am
 
I believe that the answer is "yes" if you wanted one.  I am looking at a bullet catalog from 1914.  The swaged lead bullets for target rifles have a "Fuehrung" or a driving band that is 0.1mm above caliber.  The 9.5s, which were not hot items at this time compared to the 8.15, could still be bought in a couple of different styles, hardnesses, and sizes.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


ASSRA #10288

Posts: 1620

New Jersey, New Jersey, USA
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #2 - Sep 23rd, 2012 at 2:05pm
 
jspencer - can you do me a favor with the name of the 1914 bullet catalog?  I'll do a search on Cornell Publications to determine if they have a reprint of it.

If this fails - would you mind sending me a copy of the page with the 9.5X47R bullets as a scan or paper copy?

After searching and calling many possible sources since July, you are the 1st person to provide me with any detail information about the 9.5X47R bullets

The 0.10mm "Fuehrung" or a driving band coincides to the chamber cast I made.  It starts out as 0.380 then the grooves at the leade are 0.0375 and at the muzzle is 0.371.
So 0.1mm being 0.003937" plus the 0.375 = 0.3789 or 0.380 for the driving band

In Cartridges of the World, it states the bullet was 175grs with a picture of a loaded round ... which is the only information I've been able to find
Back to top
« Last Edit: Sep 23rd, 2012 at 3:10pm by John Boy »  

Regards
John Corney
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3111

Berrien Springs, MI, USA
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #3 - Sep 23rd, 2012 at 2:19pm
 
I'm also getting ready to ply with a 9.5x47r (mine is a stalker rather than a schuetzen) 
I'd like to see that catalogue page scanned and posted in this thread for future reference.
Back to top
 

sacred cows make the best burger
 
IP Logged
 
jspencer
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 38

Mayfield, Utah, USA
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #4 - Sep 23rd, 2012 at 4:59pm
 
I have two catalogs, both of which are reprints and might be available.  One is from C. Domanig from 1914 and the other is an RWS/Utendoerffer from some time after 1906.  The RWS shows the driving band better.  ECRA reprinted the RWS in 1995.
Back to top
 

img177a.jpg (341 KB | 186 )
img177a.jpg
img176a.jpg (400 KB | 192 )
img176a.jpg
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


ASSRA #10288

Posts: 1620

New Jersey, New Jersey, USA
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #5 - Sep 23rd, 2012 at 5:51pm
 
jspencer - Thanks kindly for the jpg bullet pictures.  Now I have data to work from and believe that Buffalo Arms stop ring bullet can be opened up to 9.5 as a custom mold.  The N 25-1
Before I contact BAC, will run a Powley Stability Calculation
Back to top
 

Regards
John Corney
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


ASSRA #10288

Posts: 1620

New Jersey, New Jersey, USA
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #6 - Sep 24th, 2012 at 9:20am
 
Wayne:  here's what I have come up with for a 9.5X47R bullet ....
*  Use the dimensions for the 18B bullet that jspencer provided
*  Contact Buffalo Arms to determine if they can make a 9.5 bullet mold based on the 180gr stop ring mold they presently make for the .320" 8.15 stop ring
*  My rifle is a 1:19 twist - presume yours is the same
Attached is a Powley Stability calculation that shows a 180gr bullet using the 18B bullet dimensions to have a highly stability factor with a minimum velocity of 1115 fps
Back to top
« Last Edit: Sep 24th, 2012 at 9:40am by John Boy »  

Regards
John Corney
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3111

Berrien Springs, MI, USA
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #7 - Sep 24th, 2012 at 9:37am
 
THANK YOU  J Spencer for posting those pages.  that is a REAL BIG help for now and for future reference.

A BA mould should be a big help. I'll also be checking out the maker I used for my 7.5x55 bullet as a possible alternate.
I wonder about the little recess in the base,  I can imagine a little bit of a minie' rim or perhaps a lube recess.  But the deeper triangular cut puzzles me a bit.

As I recall on the (longterm, dammit) CBA  NOE 8,15R bullet project there was initially a recessed base but NOE didn't want to do it.   I wonder if the german bullets were cast or swedged?   Unfortunately I can't read German to understand much of the catalogue texts.

Would a longer bore riding bullet nose help ballistically?
Back to top
 

sacred cows make the best burger
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


ASSRA #10288

Posts: 1620

New Jersey, New Jersey, USA
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #8 - Sep 24th, 2012 at 9:49am
 
Wayne - jspencer posted ... Quote:
The swaged lead bullets for target rifles have a "Fuehrung" or a driving band that is 0.1mm above caliber.


The translations are:
*  Caliber
*  Fuhrung = stop ring (0.10mm)
*  Lange = Length
*  Gewicht = Weight
*  Stuckzahl = alloy (grams lead per Kilo)
re: Longer bore riding.  I don't believe so.  If the German shooters deemed a longer bore riding bullet - sure the catalogs would have had them in it for sale
Back to top
 

Regards
John Corney
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3111

Berrien Springs, MI, USA
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #9 - Sep 24th, 2012 at 9:53am
 
aaaarrrrgh!    should have re read that earlier post Embarrassed

I thought that was what the words meant, but wasn't sure
Thanks
Back to top
 

sacred cows make the best burger
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


ASSRA #10288

Posts: 1620

New Jersey, New Jersey, USA
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #10 - Sep 24th, 2012 at 1:24pm
 
Wayne, I talked with Chris at Buffalo Arms.  He told me when Jim gets back from Germany - it would be about 4 weeks to have them make a custom 9.5 mold.  I told Chris I could have a picture of the bullet and the dimensions to them in several days

Now, to that end, look at configuration of the 95 bullet on the Scheibengewehr-Geschosse jpg.  Note the location of the stop ring.  It is part of and located at the top of the 1st GG band.  Note the location that BACO cuts their mold as
http://www.buffaloarms.com/Buffalo_Arms_Moulds_it-160126.aspx?TERM=8.15X46R

Also there is a different stop ring  position on the 18B bullet which is the 1st full GG band

How about you and I discussing who - what shape bullet and dimensions by PM or email before asking anyone for a custom mold.  Okie Dookie?
If there is any other ASSRA member with a 9.5 they too can be part of the discussion

To do a Powley Stability calculation, these knowns must be identified for the owner's rifle:
*  Rifle Twist
*  The bore slugged at both the breech and muzzle for groove dimensions.  My bore is tapered: 378 breech to 375 at the muzzle.  Is a major base diameter factor for the custom mold.  then the bullet dimensions can be plugged in
Back to top
 

Regards
John Corney
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


ASSRA #10288

Posts: 1620

New Jersey, New Jersey, USA
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #11 - Sep 25th, 2012 at 8:43am
 
Asked Biggi for translation of the German wording in the jpg ...
The jpg 'Scheibengewahr-Geschosse' lists the 9.5X47R as
* Kaliber in mm = 9.50.  So ... 9.50mm = 0.374" base diameter
* Führung (the 9.60 mm stop ring) = 0.3779" stop ring diameter
* Lange (20 mm) = 0.787"
* Stückzahl per Kilo circa (number of bullets in a kg -15432 grains) would be the weight of the bullet ... 76 = 203gr weight of the bullet
* Fabriks-Preis per kg ... 1 - 20 ... believe 20 bullets per kg
Revised Powley Stability calculation as attachment

Now - is there an ASSRA member that has the software and would help by making a dimensional drawing of the bullet based on the bullet picture on the Scheibengewahr-Geschosse jpg?
Back to top
« Last Edit: Sep 25th, 2012 at 8:51am by John Boy »  

Regards
John Corney
 
IP Logged
 
feuerbixler
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 583

München, Bayern, Germany
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #12 - Sep 25th, 2012 at 9:04am
 
.
John Boy wrote on Sep 25th, 2012 at 8:43am:
* Fabriks-Preis per kg ... 1 - 20 ... believe 20 bullets per kg


Translation:

Fabriks-Preis per kilo = prices are quoted ex works per kilo


                     Biggi.
Back to top
 

Questions in old German target rifles?  Hhhmm, maybe I can help...
...meanwhile more than 500 quality posts from Bavaria!
WWW  
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3111

Berrien Springs, MI, USA
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #13 - Sep 25th, 2012 at 6:20pm
 
FWIW  I had Tom at Accuratemolds.com make up a bullet for my 7.5x55 Hammerelli Swiss martini.   fast work quick turn around, EXCELLENT quality, and I think VERY fair prices.  I just emailed him to see if he can do stop rings or not just to have a second arrow in the quiver
Back to top
 

sacred cows make the best burger
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


ASSRA #10288

Posts: 1620

New Jersey, New Jersey, USA
Re: 9.5X47R Bullets?
Reply #14 - Sep 25th, 2012 at 9:52pm
 
Quote:
I just emailed him to see if he can do stop rings or not just to have a second arrow in the quiver
Smiley Thanks Wayne.  Should be an easy one and hope it is.  One half of the 1st GG band is 0.3779 with the stop ring for bullet number 95 and the bottom band diameter is 0.3740.  Supposedly the stop ring is 1mm wide (0.0394).  If that's correct the GG bands and base are 0.788 wide

Don't know the 2 GG's and crimp groove diameters but they should be able to calculated with the bullet length of 0.7874 up to a total weight of the bullet as 203gr including the nose.  Would presume the nose radius and shape is the same as the 8.15

The other bullet to calculate dimensions on is the number 67 on the other jpg that is listed as a 9.55m (0.376") that shows the stop ring to be a full GG band width of 0.3815.  Your rifle grooves should be the same as mine - 0.375.  That bullet length is 0.8858 and the weight is 13.80g (212.97gr)

Have choices for a best fit to rifle chamber casts
Back to top
« Last Edit: Sep 25th, 2012 at 10:18pm by John Boy »  

Regards
John Corney
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print