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False Muzzles & Such (Read 4148 times)
FITZ
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REGARDS

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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #15 - Dec 31st, 2012 at 10:54am
 
Waterman and westerner, Pope barrels do not in most cases have Throat or lead. But they accept bullets from a Pope Mold because Pope bullets are tapered. In most cases either Bore size to under Bore size at the front to slightly over Groove size at the base. I have two pope 32-40 molds and have yet to find a factory chambered 32-40 that will not accept either one Breech Seated with no effort. And in so far all cases they have shot well, at least acceptable offhand shooting. Much better than I can hold. So an original Pope with no throat will still accept
a Pope bullet for Breach seating. I Have used the same bullet both breech seated and muzzle loaded with good to excellent results. Regards, FITZ Smiley
P.S. by the way when I say Pope bullets are Tapered I mean heavily tapered.
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waterman
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #16 - Dec 31st, 2012 at 11:33am
 
Old-Win, sounds like an interesting rifle.  Is the false muzzle still with the rifle?  And the 22 Long Rifle marking on the barrel is certainly curious. Please keep us posted.

Fitz, the thing that has always puzzled me about Pope's choke-bored ML barrels is that the bullet, with its perfect base, is undersize when it gets to the breech.  Would not that lead to gas cutting (and some sort of inherent inaccuracy), especially when shot with a smokeless load?
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Old-Win
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #17 - Dec 31st, 2012 at 11:49am
 
Waterman, No the false muzzle is missing.  That's what initiated my original post.  I intend on shooting this rifle if the bore is good so it will have to be breechseated.  I would guess that the prongs were removed to help aid the rifle at the bench.  Will keep you posted on it when it arrives.  Will need lots of help with this as this is my first foray in the schuetzen world.  Bob
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waterman
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #18 - Dec 31st, 2012 at 12:18pm
 
Since the pin holes are already in the barrel, I find myself wondering whether it would be feasible to deepen the holes and create a new false muzzle?
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FITZ
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #19 - Jan 1st, 2013 at 4:32pm
 
Waterman, when shooting Muzzle loaded you WOULD? have been shooting with Black powder. Black powder when ignited goes off with a sledge hammer blow to the base of the bullet. No gentle acceleration here. The Bullet is instantly bumped up on the spot. Now with smokeless muzzle loaded there is some merit to your comment. I am not sure of what actually happens. I do know I have had some degree of success with smokeless Muzzle loaded. I shoot for the most part 25/1 Lead/tin alloy sometimes 30/1 Lead/Tin. And once again offhand shooting so my definition of acceptable accuracy is some what questionable. Bench shooting may well show the result of your question. However just thinking I realised I have not observed any result of Gas cutting in the form of leading in my rifles. I do use a fairly stiff load, 15.5 Gr 4759 in a 32-40, and 18.5 Gr 4759 in my Pope 38-55  so it may be that these loads are stiff enough to bump up the bullet base. Just not sure.
Will think it over some more. HTH Regards, FITZ Smiley
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FITZ
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #20 - Jan 1st, 2013 at 4:57pm
 
Waterman, by the way Pope barrels are not choked all that much. Probably only about .0005 to .001 at most, if that. Pope  rifling was done with scrape cutter that was regulated with paper shims that he increased
as the rifling process moved on. There was some spring loading of the cutter. It has been said that he took no more than .0002-.0003 per pass or increment. I do know that the process of shooting either Muzzle loaded or Breech seated is fussy. If you are not able to drive the bullet the full distance of the bullet starter in one smooth blow, meaning it has to be struck a second time the bullet will NOT shoot to the same zero. The same applies to breech seating, if you cannot breech seat smoothly in one neat push and have to push or smack the seater in some way a second time that bullet will not shoot to the same zero as those before it. The reason is that any lead bullet of a reasonable soft ally will bump up some what
every time it is hit or pushed. It now is a different bullet diameter and will shoot differently. Regards, FITZ. Smiley
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westerner
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #21 - Jan 2nd, 2013 at 12:18am
 
Quote:
Before I lay my hard cash down, is there anything else I should look for that would make or break the deal?  Thanks for all the help.  Bob
I was going to post the link but I see it's gone this morning


One thing to look for in an old muzzle loading barrel is "rings".  Not unusual to find rings.  Use a very tight patch on a short jag. Place the barrel in a vice and push a tight patch through the bore slowly. If the barrel has a ring, or rings near the breech it will not shoot accurate. When I say tight patch, I mean tight enough you can just push it through by hand in one smooth slow push. The shorter the jag the easier it is to feel the rings if it has one.  Might be a deal killer and maybe not. The rings can be lapped out. A lot of hard work that should be worth something whether you do it, or have it done.

A friend has shot 250s with his Pope Stevens false muzzle outfit with breech seated bullets. He uses a Hoch tapered Pope style bullet.  A rifle does not have to have a special throat to shoot breech seated bullets accurately, as Fitz pointed out.

      Joe.  Smiley
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« Last Edit: Jan 2nd, 2013 at 12:36am by westerner »  

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Old-Win
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #22 - Jan 2nd, 2013 at 10:06am
 
Thanks Joe, that is definatley something I will be looking for. Bob
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Old-Win
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #23 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:43am
 
Picked up the Helm highwall yesterday.  I cleaned the bore and it is bright and shiny except near the muzzle where it has browned some. It has a #2 barrel stamped .22 long rifle but is now in 32-40, with left hand twist and what I believe is Pope rifling.  Joe, the bore seemed very smooth as I past a tight jag and patch through it.  It looks like it was done by Stevens as there is an insert for the forearm stud that was staked with a large tool and the polishing marks match those on the insert.  That still doesn't explain the .22 stamp though.  Any thoughts??
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Old-Win
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #24 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:44am
 
2nd pic
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Old-Win
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #25 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 10:45am
 
3rd pic
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ledball
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #26 - Jan 8th, 2013 at 5:56pm
 
It appears to be a genuine Stevens Pope barrel, the number would put it near the end of production.   ledball
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westerner
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #27 - Jan 9th, 2013 at 11:17pm
 
Looks to be in good shape, Bob.

Don't know about the .22 stamp. Looks like the barrel was either set back or came from another rifle.  Looks like a piece of steel set in the old dovetail and recut in the new location.
Wouldn't worry about the patina in the muzzle.  Shooting the rifle and cleaning will most likely remove it.
To bad about the lost false muzzle.  Sad 
A smooth false muzzle can be made to fit if you ever decide to muzzle load the rifle. Adds a lot to the looks and they do work.
Keep us up to date on how it shoots.  Wink

       Joe.  Smiley
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waterman
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #28 - Jan 10th, 2013 at 2:11am
 
Could it have been a .22 barrel and re-bored plus given a false muzzle at the same time?

And would it be feasible to use the first 2" of the barrel to make a new rifled false muzzle? It ought to be easy enough to deepen the holes for the new pins.
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frnkeore
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Re: False Muzzles & Such
Reply #29 - Jan 10th, 2013 at 2:50am
 
waterman,
Remaking the false muzzle that way becomes a extremely hard re-indexing problem. It has to rotate with the rifling. You have to know the exact twist and the exact amount removed and that has to be done somewhere behing the existing pin holes. The smaller problem is that the flats won't match.

frank
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