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.22 Barrel Liner (Read 3593 times)
Robert L
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.22 Barrel Liner
Aug 22nd, 2013 at 8:38pm
 
Has anyone ever installed one of the Redman .22 caliber barrel liners? I have a couple rifles that are in need of new barrels and the barrel liner looks like the most probable fix. Since I have a decent amount of mechanical sense and the process seems to be straight forward I am thinking on tackling it myself. Thought I would post this query to see if anyone had and pros or cons to put forth regarding the procedure.

Thanks,

Robert
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singleshotsam
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #1 - Aug 22nd, 2013 at 10:37pm
 
Hello Robert,

I install the Redman's liners in my shop on a regular basis. Easily done and will put those old rifles back in service. If you have access to a lathe the only other items you will need is a liner drill and a chambering reamer. If you purchase the liner from Brownell's they will provide a detailed set of installation instructions with it if you ask at the time of the order.

Good luck.
SSS
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Redsetter
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #2 - Aug 22nd, 2013 at 11:21pm
 
More power to anyone with the skill & confidence to undertake this operation, but...my experience suggests there's many a slip 'twixt the cup & the lip. 

Beginning in the late '70s, I've paid for about a dozen .22LR re-line jobs from Redman himself, Bullshitter Beinke, & others reported to be expert in the procedure.  My test of performance was not, I don't think, unreasonable:  5-shot groups not exceeding I/2" at 50 yds with match ammo, usually Tenex.  Not many passed that test. Three that did so admirably were jobs by Ken Bresien, who made liners by turning down Douglas Premium blanks; not cheap.  A couple more came close enough that I said "good enough."  The rest were sold or traded.  Maybe others have had better luck, & if so, I envy them.
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creedmoormatch
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #3 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 5:43am
 
Quote:
Maybe others have had better luck, & if so, I envy them.


"Luck" is not the critical ingredient in the successful barrel relining process.

Many of these bore relining jobs are performed by or for folks who are attempting to make a "silk purse out of a cow's ear" and they believe it can be done for a pittance. Practically, they have no money to invest in the candidate rifle or they are content to shoot tin cans off the board fence at 25 feet. Well, you get the picture.

If one were to have a fairly worthy candidate rifle that has a marginal bore it would serve you well to take or send the entire rifle to a qualified and competent barrel maker who has the lathe equipment and reamers necessary to do the installation correctly, and ask that it be lined with a T.J.'s Enterprise Liner, not a Redman.

Why a T. J.'s liner you ask ? Quality on top of quality I answer. The instruction sheets that Brownell's hand out with the Redman brand of liner tells about how the week-end handman may install a barrel line using a Black & Decker 3/8" hand drill. Perhaps that process will accomondate some, but not if you are looking for perfection.

Top drawer in this world costs dollars, so be prepared to pay for quality.

C.M.M.
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SSShooter
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #4 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 6:03am
 
TJ's is the liner and John Taylor is the gunsmith. Easy to hold that 0.5" group at 50yd when John does the work.
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Glenn
 
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Redsetter
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #5 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 8:34am
 
creedmoormatch wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 5:43am:


...they are content to shoot tin cans off the board fence at 25 feet.
C.M.M. [/quote]

These are the folks who give glowing endorsements to whomever did the work for them. A low-wall with 28", #2 brl, SST, deluxe checkered wood, that cost me a lot to buy, shot about 3/4" after the reline by a well-known gunsmith. (That, after trying several brands match ammo.) Should have kept the gun, & paid to have it re-re-lined, but was so disheartened I sold it. Buyer was delighted with it, reported it most accurate .22 he'd ever shot. I guess it's a blessing to be so easily satisfied.
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shovel80
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #6 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 10:26am
 
SSShooter wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 6:03am:
TJ's is the liner and John Taylor is the gunsmith. Easy to hold that 0.5" group at 50yd when John does the work.


I'll second this remark, except john did a sharps for me in .45 Caliber. Shoots Wonderful!

Terry Smiley
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ssdave
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #7 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 12:57pm
 
I don't think there's a lot wrong with Redmans liners, they may not be the best, but they're "good enough", and capable of quite good accuracy.  Here's a picture of a liner that I made to go into my .45-90 rolling block, and typical groups with it and iron sights at 100 yds:

...

Those groups were shot with Federal bulk pack ammo, and will consistently be under 1.5" at 100, and I have had a few as small as 5/8".  Typical 90th percentile group is less than 1.25".  This is not an fluke, I have had similar or better accuracy from several of these liners that I bought from Brownells.

I think the workmanship in installing the liner is critical to accuracy.  John Taylor, as mentioned, does an excellent job.  I like that he reams the bore to straighten it instead of just using a liner drill. 

Curt Hardcastle, who replied to you earlier is meticulous and I'm betting would have an excellent result if he did a reline for you.

The typical gunsmith reline, where a 16" long 8mm piloted drill is used and then a liner shoved in and soldered or epoxied is good for restoring a can shooter, but isn't the best path to target grade accuracy.  I've seen a lot of relines with a kink in the center, where drilling from both ends did not quite meet.  As a minimum, I think that the entire installation should be drilled from the chamber end, and that an extended drill long enough to do the job is essential.  I also think that it should be done on the lathe, with the barrel indicated in to the bore through the headstock.  Unfortunately, that takes a longer bed than some people have to make it work.  Like a previous poster stated, you pay for a better job, amazingly enough you usually get better accuracy.

For what it's worth, I think Beinke's break in thoughts are about right; 600 to 800 shots is what I've seen on new .22 barrels before they achieved best accuracy.  That's with Lilja and Douglas barrels, too, not liners.

dave
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Redsetter
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #8 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 5:17pm
 
ssdave wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 12:57pm:
I think the workmanship in installing the liner is critical to accuracy.


Absolutely critical.

But please set me straight about improvement to be expected after 500+ rounds, because you're the first I've known to support that claim.  You're suggesting a 3/4" 50 yd group, for ex., will shrink to, say, 1/2" after that many rounds? 

Given iron sights & cheap ammo, the above groups are to be envied.
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SSShooter
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #9 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 7:08pm
 
Will occasionally shoot our NRA smallbore prone match with my Weihrauch. I'm happy to break 540. The top shooters are unhappy if they don't break 590. In various discussions they are in a agreement that it takes ~500 rounds to properly break-in a new rimfire target barrel. On the upside, the barrel will last an almost infinite number of rounds. May have to set back a turn and rechamber very occasionally, but that's about it. Even the lowly LR cartridge will eventually erode the throat.
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Glenn
 
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MI-shooter
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #10 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 7:53pm
 
Bashing vendors by name is NOT permitted per forum rules. Please keep that in mind guys when posting. Some posts were removed for that reason.

Ed
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Redsetter
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #11 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 8:14pm
 
SSShooter wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 7:08pm:
In various discussions they are in a agreement that it takes ~500 rounds to properly break-in a new rimfire target barrel.


Those folks, and you, are better shooters than I've ever dreamed of being. However, I'm still not sure that they're talking about the same thing I'm talking about: if they're talking about differences in performance measured with a caliper at 100 m., they're definitely not.

If it's a "known fact" that this much shooting is necessary to improve substantially a rimfire brl, it rather amazes me that the MILLIONS of words on shooting I've read over the last 50 yrs in the Rifleman, the Rifle, Precision Shooting, a half-dozen other gun mags, & innumerable "classics" (Crossman, Whelen, Sharpe, Hatcher, Page, etc.) have failed to knock that fact into my head. (And the heads of quite a number of very experienced shooters & gunsmiths I know.) Of course, I haven't read everything by any means, & don't doubt I've missed many important reports, but it seems something as important as this would have been discussed many times in many places.

My Bienke ordeal, the full story of which would probably crash this website, occurred 15 yrs ago, & I'm dead sure he wasn't in communication with your group of .22 specialists. Instead, I surmise he was generalizing (stupidly) from the well-known fact that high-power rifle barrels improve over 100s, or 1000s, of rounds, esp. with jacketed bullets.
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« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2013 at 8:23pm by Redsetter »  
 
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slumlord44
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #12 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 8:56pm
 
I have to agree with some previous comments on liners. Redman is fine for a boys rifle or any other plinker. . Most casual shooters would think accuracy is fine. If you are looking for Target grade accuracy the TJ is the John Taylor is as good as it gets.
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ssdave
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #13 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 8:56pm
 
Redsetter,

Do a google search and read some of the ideas of Bill Calfee. He's arguably one of the very best rimfire benchrest gunsmiths. He actually invented a tool to burnish the throat of the .22 lr chamber, so as to reduce the amount of breakin shots needed to achieve best accuracy.

There's also some belief that burnishing the bore with fine steel wool will aid in that process, but I've not been able to convince myself to try it.

One other thing that I do is find a choked section of the barrel to end the barrel at. Bill Calfee goes into that in detail, it's probably his signature work. That can make an inconsistent inside diameter liner shine where otherwise it might be a mediocre one.

I've been slugging target grade barrels I have to find my next target project barrel. I have yet to find one with a good, consistent bore and slight choke right where I want it. I had a couple more contoured a few weeks ago, but have been too busy with other stuff to check them yet. When I get one that has a choke that has EXACTLY the bore characteristics that I want, I'm going to have an acquaintance that is an olympic target rifle builder fit and chamber it for me and see how it compares to my current very good, but not perfect rifles. I think it will be hard to tell at my skill level, but it will be nice to have a rifle that there is no doubt as to the quality/consistency, so any aberrations are me and the wind.

dave
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« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2013 at 9:07pm by ssdave »  
 
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Robert L
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Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #14 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 9:26pm
 
Thanks to everyone for the reply's and the assistance. I received more than I expected in the way of an education.

My goal wasn't and still isn't micrometer accuracy at 100 meters/yards. If I can hit a squirrel in the head at 20 yards and groundhog in the head at 50 yards I will be happy.

I do tend to like the idea of a drill or reamer that goes all the way, end to end, of the barrel all in one pass. The idea of drilling from both ends and over lapping in the middle sounds problematic?

I took special note regarding the comment about 'making a silk purse out of a sows ear'. I can't say that this is my situation exactly but I will say that I do see some vague resemblance. Both of the rifles I am dealing with are over a century old, have been worked on before in a previous life, and will probably cost more than they are worth to get back in shape but I have an affinity for projects like this.

I'm not sure now if I will take this on myself or not. A call to one or two of the gunsmiths mentioned above is order I think. I'll come to a decision after that.

Thanks again.

Robert
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