Welcome, Guest. Please Login
YaBB - Yet another Bulletin Board
  Please visit the Announcements forum and read the updated Forum Rules.
  HomeHelpSearchMember MapLogin ASSRA HomePage  
 
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print
.22 Barrel Liner (Read 4074 times)
Redsetter
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 753

Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #15 - Aug 23rd, 2013 at 11:54pm
 
ssdave wrote on Aug 23rd, 2013 at 8:56pm:
Redsetter,

Do a google search and read some of the ideas of Bill Calfee. dave


I'd certainly like to read his book, though I can't help wondering how directly applicable bench-rest refinements might be to precision small-game hunting (my own humble & prosaic interest) at ranges almost never in excess of 75 yds (a long way in the woods).  But, directly applicable or not, I'm sure it would still be enlightening.

That 500+ rounds through a bench-rest rifle bore can make a significant difference in scores I don't dispute--I accept it as a scientific fact.  My question is, if you'll forgive my belaboring the point, will it turn a 3/4" rifle into a 1/2" rifle?  If the answer is yes, I'll burn up a brick through every  RF I've got (all SSs, so that will take time); that is, if & when I find the bricks to burn up that way.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2013 at 6:42am by Redsetter »  
 
IP Logged
 
John Taylor
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 867

Puyallup, WA, Washington, USA
Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #16 - Aug 25th, 2013 at 10:34pm
 
I would like to be able to say all the relines I do work out great but the last one I did for myself has not done so well. Might be the Remington bulk ammo I was using but I did not like 6" groups at 50 yards. My eyes are not what they once were so I put a 15 power scope on it. I did notice some of the rounds made a bang and some were almost silent out of a 30" barrel and it showed on the target that the ones that went bang shoot higher. Will try some good ammo as soon as I can get some.
Back to top
 

John Taylor   Machinist/gunsmith
WWW  
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3213

Berrien Springs, MI, USA
Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #17 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 7:26am
 
Accuracy is very relative. 
 Are you shooting squirrels in the head out of trees (say 1 inch @20-30 yard shots), are you trying to shoot a 250/10x on an inch and a half x-ring at 200 yds, are you trying for a 2200 out of 2500 offhand @ 100 yds, or are you trying for sub 1/4 in groups @ 50 yds off the bench.  All are very different games.
Are you shooting 150$/brick  (or more) premium match ammo or 20$/box bulk (if you can find it)?
Then there is the quality of the rifle/sights to start with as well as the individual shooter's personal skill level and always, the "conditions".

As rifling tools wear variations occur and no mass-produced barrel billets can be totally homogenous in micrograin and hardness structure.
I'm convinced that new-from-the-factory 22 rf barrels benefit from "lapping" to polish out the small MFG striations created in the rifling process-whether done with a brick or so of ammo or with more mechanical means.
I imagine hand cut and polished barrels may have this done as part of the process---contributing to their coast and reputation.
Barrel liners are simply very thin walled rifled barrels designed to be inserted in a heavier barrel.   Quality barrels and liners count and cost to start with. 
 So does the skill of the installer.  A good quality gunsmith who understands your accuracy requirements can make a liner/barrel combination that will work for you. 
We have several experienced gunsmiths associated with this site that can do the job, but high quality costs and good gunsmithing takes time.
   
A DIY job could work as well, depending on the skill and knowledge and tools of the worker--and his experience level with his tools (would you want a kidney transplant from a trainee?) and of course the initial accuracy requirements and conditions.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Aug 26th, 2013 at 7:35am by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

sacred cows make the best burger
 
IP Logged
 
shovel80
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 357

Sonora,CA, California, USA
Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #18 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 8:30am
 
TJ's Liners are Not Cut Rifled. I believe they are forged on a mandrel.

Terry Smiley
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Redsetter
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 753

Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #19 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 8:43am
 
QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Aug 26th, 2013 at 7:26am:
Accuracy is very relative. 
... 20$/box bulk (if you can find it)?   


At the Saratoga Springs gunshow this weekend, one crook had 9-10 bricks of CCI SV priced at $125 ea.  No sales for him, maybe because a less greedy crook was offering bricks (Rem.) at only $80 ea.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3213

Berrien Springs, MI, USA
Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #20 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 9:06am
 
terry,  I may be wrong, but I believe that almost all thin-wall rimfire "liners" today are created from some sort of drawn tubing.  I doubt that any are actually cut and rifled today.
But I'm not sure how they could be button rifled, unless they were inserted in a heavy tightly fitted tube to support them as the button is drawn through.

As part of the whole barrel liner discussion---which comes up fairly often--- it'd be educational to learn how barrel liners were created in the past and present. 

I have a original German schuetzen that (according to BiggiH) probably started as an 1880-ish 8.15 that was liner-converted to 22rf in the later 19-teens or early 20s when match quality 22 rf ammo became available in Germany. This was popular in some areas, probably contemporaneous with the growth of "gallery shooting" here in the US

Parker-Hale made high quality 22 rf liners in commercial quantities early on and CC Johnson used them for his work after Diller quit making liners. 

I have been told that early-on liners were made by turning down barrels  I know the one in my schuetzen is quite thick as is the one in my CC Johnson Martini.   machining a 22 rf barrel down to liner size must have been a time-consuming technically difficult project.
I imagine that while todays thin-tube liners are probably more complex in some ways, at least they are more affordable than if they had to be individually machined down from larger barrels

Back to top
 

sacred cows make the best burger
 
IP Logged
 
SSShooter
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 909

Southern NJ, USA
Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #21 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 9:35am
 
The two modern liners I'm familiar with are TJs and Walthers. Both are hammer forged and both are very accurate.

Am familiar with the Parker-Hale from a shooting stand-point, as my brother's Winder Musket is one that is back from England and was lined by P-H. My understanding is that doing so was SOP for the ones the British purchased.
Back to top
 

Glenn
 
IP Logged
 
Redsetter
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 753

Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #22 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 10:23am
 
QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Aug 26th, 2013 at 9:06am:
I have been told that early-on liners were made by turning down barrels 


That's what Ken Bresien did for me 25+ yrs ago. 
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
John Taylor
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 867

Puyallup, WA, Washington, USA
Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #23 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 9:33pm
 
Redman liners are button rifled and T.J.'s are hammer forged. Both are made from 4130 aircraft tube. The hammer forging proses make the steel a little harder. The 4130 steel does not machine very well. I tried doing a cut rifle liner with some and gave up.
Back to top
 

John Taylor   Machinist/gunsmith
WWW  
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3213

Berrien Springs, MI, USA
Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #24 - Aug 26th, 2013 at 10:17pm
 
John I can see rotary hammer forging giving some metallurgical values in terms of altering and aligning the grain structures as its bashed and mashed into the mandrel.  and maybe machining and polishing the mandrel itself properly leaves a better interior to the mandrel.

but wouldn't pulling a button through and "ironing" the rifling into the tube ALSO give a work hardened surface.  Of course "smoothness" and dimensional consistency would be a direct result of how the button is finished and how worn it is and the speed and uniformity of the pull--or push and how homogenous the material in the tube itself it.   And maybe how it is supported during the button-rifling process.

so much to learn to understand
Back to top
 

sacred cows make the best burger
 
IP Logged
 
John Taylor
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 867

Puyallup, WA, Washington, USA
Re: .22 Barrel Liner
Reply #25 - Aug 29th, 2013 at 10:04am
 
QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Aug 26th, 2013 at 10:17pm:
John I can see rotary hammer forging giving some metallurgical values in terms of altering and aligning the grain structures as its bashed and mashed into the mandrel.  and maybe machining and polishing the mandrel itself properly leaves a better interior to the mandrel.

but wouldn't pulling a button through and "ironing" the rifling into the tube ALSO give a work hardened surface.  Of course "smoothness" and dimensional consistency would be a direct result of how the button is finished and how worn it is and the speed and uniformity of the pull--or push and how homogenous the material in the tube itself it.   And maybe how it is supported during the button-rifling process.

so much to learn to understand

The hammer forging process uses a larger diameter tube with a thicker wall. The mandrel is about 4" long and I am told the machine is quite large. T.J.'s says they have a 6 cylinder engine that runs the machine. With button rifling a carbide button with rifling on it is pushed or pulled through. The button may be about 1" long and have a very narrow section with the rifling and tapered to both ends. When using it on thin wall tube the tube can spring away and then back, not like doing a full size barrel with a wall thickness of maybe .400". I have seen a few button rifled liners where you could see the rifling on the OD of the liner.
Back to top
 

John Taylor   Machinist/gunsmith
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 
Send Topic Print