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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions (Read 9050 times)
Green_Frog
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.45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Apr 29th, 2004 at 10:18am
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As I was throwing together some loads for the Borchardt .45-70 I am testing it dawned on me that it had been a pretty long time since I had loaded anything smokeless for that caliber, but since the owner of the company requested that I limit myself to smokeless only, I complied and pulled out the old standard can of Unique..."when in doubt, try Unique!"

While I got some fairly good results with that first approximation, I was wondering about current thinking on smokeless loads for the .45-70.  Does anybody have any suggestions?  I am planning on using some 38r grainers, some 405 grainers, and a couple of different ones of the big 500 or 525 grain lead zeppelins.  Any input welcome!  Smiley

TIA, the Frog
  
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Dale53
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #1 - Apr 29th, 2004 at 10:40am
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Froggy;
Since 4759 was specially developed for original black powder cartridges such as the 45/70, I would recommend that. It works quite well in these cartriges and bulks up well. I KNOW  you have some of that around Grin!

If you want "high powered" loads, 4198 and RL-7 are the answer. Ken Waters' "Pet Loads" has pages of info on smokeless loading of the 45/70. I could scan and e-mail this to you if you are interested.

Dale53
  
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PETE
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #2 - Apr 29th, 2004 at 12:01pm
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Frog,
  I've had good luck with 29.0 or 30.0 grs. of 4198 and a 400 gr. cast bullet.  Another load would be 38.0 to 40.0 grs. of 3031 with the same bullet.

PETE
  
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MerwinBray
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #3 - Apr 29th, 2004 at 8:59pm
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Green Frog,
I have had excellent succes with 31 grains of IMR 3031 and a 405 grain bullet. I have used flat base and the gov. hollow base in 20-1 all with SPG and was very happy. I have recently been experimenting with XMP 5744. I bought it because it claims to closely duplicate BP velocites. They claim they used a 50-70 in it's design. They wanted a powder specifically for old BP type cartridges. The manufacturers Manual even has data for the 45-120 if I remember correctly.
I have used the same 405 flat base bullets with 25 grains of 5744 as I used with 3031. I think I liked the 3031 a little better but need more bench time. Both of these powders do like a fair crimp in my gun. lDon't know if this helps but thought I would pass it on. Jon
It seems a lot of the guys using 45-70 at the Fairfax Ram Bash use the 31 grains of  IMR 3031.
  

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Mike65
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #4 - May 5th, 2004 at 2:23pm
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Green Frog,

Thanks for starting the discussion on the 45-70.  As a real "newbie", I just started shooting last year even though I'm in my 50's, I can use all of the suggestions that I can get.  I have used 5744 in my 45-70 at the suggestion of other club members because of among other things it is supposedly not position sensitive.

Now for the first of what will probably be an endless stream of questions - some of the guys use an over wad in their 45-70 loads, not compressed but lightly against the charge.  Many of the loads in the "Journal" use a pure cotton wad, is this also a good idea in the 45-70?

Mike65
  
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PETE
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #5 - May 5th, 2004 at 4:14pm
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Mike,
  I've never used 5744 in my .45/70's, but if it's not position sensitive, as advertised, then you don't want, or need to use a wad of any kind. The only reason for a wad is to consistently position the powder in the case exactly the same way for each shot.

  Lots of controversy on using wads and or fiber fillers. There is some evidence that if wads are not used properly, or the wrong material is used for a filler, then there is the possibility of ringing your chamber. Charlie Dells & Wayne Schwartz's book goes into this in some detail with the experiments Charlie performed.

  If at all possible don't use either of them. At the very least they just present another factor you have to deal with in working up an accurate load.

PETE
  
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40_Rod
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #6 - May 6th, 2004 at 8:25am
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I gotta agree with Pete here too. I have run 5744 over a chronograph in 38-55s. What I found was that I actually got lower SD with 5744 left loose in the case.
Pete is also right on the dangers of chamber ringing with wads. If you are going to use a wad to control powder placement with smokeless do not put it tight down on the powder. .050" to .100' off the powder column is about right.

40 Rod
  
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Mike65
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #7 - May 7th, 2004 at 7:58pm
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Pete and 40_Rod,

Thanks for the information.  I have read about the perils of wads, fillers and ringing which in part prompted my question.  I'm sure that all of the fellows that were using Dacron thought it was OK only to find out different with a ruined rifle.

Mike
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #8 - May 13th, 2004 at 8:54am
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Froggie, In my 45-70 Browning I have used nothing but 5744 or bp.  and no bullet other than those 457676s like I gave you.  I made up a wadseating die that seated the "vegetable fibre (cardboard to me)" wad 2-wad-thicknesses above the shaken down but not compressed powder.  I use the wads since I breech seat the 457676's and I haven't graduated to off hand shooting yet.
I usually measure and preload blocks of 50 cartridges and take them to the bench with me.  I'm on the road and don't have my load book with me but I'll email you my load data when I get home.

The load works --better than the shooter's skills-- though I was eventually able to crack 240 in the Schoyen 2 seasons ago.  the rifle is basically a B-78 with a badger barrel cut to sporter rather than BPCR length and configuration.  those big 500 gr slugs do ameliorate the wind drift somewhat

I doubt I'll be using it at the May match since I haven't had time to dig out all the equipment since my relocation.
  

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #9 - May 20th, 2004 at 8:03pm
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Frog, I can't find my loadbook, too much stuff to still unpack---and all the reloading material  is at the back of the stacks in the gargae--I should have remembered
LIFO
when I was packing and hauling to the new house.
  I know that I started at 34 gr and worked up a couple more to the load I was using at EG 2 years ago; but without the book I don't want to speculate beyond that.  A lot will depend on your barrel twist my 45-70 had a Badger 1:18 barrel and it really liked that load with those heavy bullets.  I have all I think of Matthews books on the 45-70 and can bring them to EG if you want to look at'em.
Wayne
  

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Blacki
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #10 - Jul 20th, 2004 at 7:35pm
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Who makes 4759 powder. I'm new to BP catridges.Thanks. Blacki
  
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Dale53
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #11 - Jul 20th, 2004 at 7:59pm
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Blacki;
4759 is manufactured by IMR. Hogdon now owns IMR, also and the word is they intend to keep it in the line.

Dale53
  
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Blacki
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #12 - Jul 21st, 2004 at 7:28am
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Thanks for the quick reply .

Blacki
  
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boats
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #13 - Aug 9th, 2004 at 4:29pm
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Froggy,

I found it depends on the bullet.  Lighter ones will not allow something like IMR 3031 to burn fully.  In the case of real light bullets squibs and even 330 gr bullets I liked Unique best.

When the bullets get up to 405 grs or 500 grs you can't go wrong with 4759.

Working off those premises I have used faster pistol powder in the light bullets W 231 was real popular at Fairax ram bash in Trapdoors. And did get acceptable results with the real heavy bullets using 3031.

But to keep it simple stay with 4759 for most full size and weight bullets and go to Unique for the smaller and lighter ones.

Boats

  
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JDSteele
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Re: .45-70 Smokeless Suggestions
Reply #14 - Aug 9th, 2004 at 8:59pm
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Froggie, I recommend against using 3031 for your purposes at all, at all. Been using it in the 45-70 since the late '60s but only with very heavy loads and heavy bullets with a heavy crimp, otherwise it's not as accurate & burns dirty also. Has given me some 1 MOA groups with 457125/wheel weights but not with loads less than 40-45 grains. And the better loads are much hotter than that, enough to make ya wish for a heavier rifle. I don't use 3031 in my trapdoor, for instance, it just doesn't work well for me at moderate pressures.
Regards, Joe
  
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