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Tombstone
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 1000 yd. BPCR  40cal. or 45cal. ?
Aug 24th, 2004 at 6:40am
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  I am thinking of having a new sharps rifle built and may want to do some long range shooting. I have never had a 40cal. and have been thinking of a 40-65 or a 40-70SS . My thought is that at long range it will not cut it. I have never shot black powder guns at long range (over 300yds.). I have a BPCR now in 45-70 with a 30" bbl. Will it work as good as a 40cal. with a 34" bbl..
   Thanks >>Tombstone
  
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PETE
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Re:   1000 yd. BPCR  40cal. or 45cal. ?
Reply #1 - Aug 24th, 2004 at 1:53pm
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Tombstone,

  I can't talk from any 1000 yd. experience with the .45/70 but have done some out to about 550 yds. with reasonable results. But the .45/70 seems to fall down, accuracy-wise, after 600 yds. or so. The rainbow trajectory doesn't help much either with a 1000 yd. mid-range of 57 ft.

But, from what I gather in reading a lot of ranges require a MV of 1300 fps + and with the .45/70 this is not readily achieveable. Duplexing seems to be the way most go if allowed in a given match. The preferred cartridge these days for 1000 yd. shooting with straight BP is the .45/90, which you could have you /70 reamed out to if you wanted, and it would be safe t odo in your gun.

  In the old days the 44 and 45 calibers ruled the roost at 1000 yds., and there's no reason to believe it would be any different today.

PETE
  
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FAsmus
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Re:   1000 yd. BPCR  40cal. or 45cal. ?
Reply #2 - Aug 26th, 2004 at 5:16pm
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Tombstone,

You ask:

I am thinking of having a new sharps rifle built and may want to do some long range shooting. I have never had a 40cal. and have been thinking of a 40-65 or a 40-70SS . My thought is that at long range it will not cut it..

Forrest: You are right that a 40 will not do all that well at 1000 yards.

There are some folks over to the MSN BPCR site that are building small-bore long range rifles but for my money a fellow should get the biggest caliber rifle he can sit behind for the 1000 yard distance.

I have fired in several 1000 yard matches with a 45/70 and done reasonably well. A fellow needs at least a 45 for this game I think and that being the caliber he should pick a bullet that weighs at least 540 grains and shoot it at around 1250 ft/sec.

These days I have built a "Big 50" for the 1000 yard distance. The Big 50 is an old term (believe it or not) for the 50/90 Sharps Straight.

This rifle is complete and shooting right now with a Paul Jones 690 grain 50 caliber bullet. I've done the necessary load developement and find that i can stay on our 4 X 4 steel target at 1000 yards with relative ease, just so long as the wind remains less than 20 knots.

Good afternoon,
Forrest
  
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Tombstone
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Re:   1000 yd. BPCR  40cal. or 45cal. ?
Reply #3 - Aug 26th, 2004 at 8:53pm
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  Thanks, I didn't know if this sight was the right place to ask this but I was on and thought I would give it a go.
   FAsmus what action is your 50/90 built on ? That 50/90 must bark with a 690gr. bullet. I have been shooting a 457125 Lyman (520gr.) at 20to1 over 62grs. of Goex FFG sparked by a Fedral 215M primer in my 1885 BPCR.
I have a 1875 Sharps that I had built in 30-30 with a one in ten twist just to shoot cast bullets.
    I am checking to see if their any matches near me. I know they shoot 1000yds. in NY, but I don't know if they have Black Powder matches.
    I will try that MSN BPCR sight.
    Thanks Guys  >Tombstone
  
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FAsmus
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Re:   1000 yd. BPCR  40cal. or 45cal. ?
Reply #4 - Aug 27th, 2004 at 10:38am
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Tombstone,

You ask:   FAsmus what action is your 50/90 built on ?

Forrest: I built it on IAB Sharps replica, an Italian item that is (in part) a copy of the Sharps 1866 action. As such it had a huge unsightly hammer and breech block. I modfied it to 1874 confuguration with a new hammer and lots of filing/fitting. The finished rifle weighs 15 pounds, which helps absorb the recoil.

T:  I have been shooting a 457125 Lyman (520gr.) at 20to1 over 62grs. of Goex FFG sparked by a Fedral 215M primer in my 1885 BPCR.

F:  That is a good combination, perhaps a little hard for the alloy if anything. How fast is it? A man should try for something over 1200 ft/sec for the 1000 yard distance if possible, keeping in mind that 1000 yards is just about all a small arm is capable of at all; a fellow needs about all the prefromance he can squeeze out of his rifle.

I shoot mainly smokeless powder in my long range shooting since the matches around here do not absolutly require a fellow to fire black in order to compeat: I admit that I do not like all the extra procedures required for loading and cleaning up after when shooting black powder.

T: I am checking to see if their any matches near me. I know they shoot 1000yds. in NY, but I don't know if they have Black Powder matches.

F:  If there is a 1000 yard range anywhere near where you live that is a very good thing! Even if there is no real BP match schedule it should be possible to get in some real practice at the distance, and if you have nor fired over the 1000 yards it is always a interesting thing to try.

T:   I will try that MSN BPCR sight.

F:  Go there via: groups.msn.com/bpcr/messages

Good morning,
Forrest
  
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boats
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Re:   1000 yd. BPCR  40cal. or 45cal. ?
Reply #5 - Sep 7th, 2004 at 2:05pm
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I should not reply without first hand knowledge. But

I have a good friend that shoots 1000 yard matches with his 45/70 BPC rifle.   Since the 45/70 does not carry quite enought powder to get the velocity you want he loads more than the case will hold.

He breech seats a 500 grain 45 cal bullet about 1/4 inch ahead of the case mouth with a plugged 45/70 case.

Then uses a 45/70 case pre-loaded with a rolled paper tube inserted allowing 90 grains of black powder. With a simple tube jig longer than the case and cut to the exact leingth he needs It's crimped it like a shotgun shell.

I have been on the pratice range with him and have seen very good results on paper and over the cronograph.

The advantage is most of his shooting is BPC Silouette were 45/70 is about as powerfull as you want to go. And for the less frequent long range matches he does not need another rifle.

Seems like a good method to see if 45/90 is what you want without re-chambering

Boats
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re:   1000 yd. BPCR  40cal. or 45cal. ?
Reply #6 - Sep 27th, 2004 at 8:24am
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One of the reasons the smaller calibers were never used for LR work is that there was a .45 caliber minimum requirement for the original LR matches in the UK.
But I do believe the smaller calibers do have the potential to compete - given heavy for caliber bullets and fast-twist barrels.  To me, the reason that the .40 doen't do well at LR is the too-slow twist used (1:16) in combination with too heavy a bullet - as needed for LR work
Don't forget, it has been done already, a LR .40 match rifle which was one of the best, and it was called the Peabody .40-90 'What Cheer', and it shot a 500gr .40 bullet.  BUT it used a 1:14 twist barrel
So yes, they can perform - providing all parameters are right.
  
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KenKauffman
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Re:   1000 yd. BPCR  40cal. or 45cal. ?
Reply #7 - Feb 27th, 2005 at 10:33pm
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A number of items.  A .40 cal may not meet the range velocity (if there are any) requirements. And at other than 1000 yard paper punching, the .40 can be impossible to hear when shooting at iron targets. This can mean that your "hit" may not qualify as such.  But, they sure are nice to shoot at 600 yards and under. Plus the .40-70 SS is such a handsom cartridge.
  
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cam0063
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Re:   1000 yd. BPCR  40cal. or 45cal. ?
Reply #8 - Feb 28th, 2005 at 7:45am
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I am building a .40-82 Crossno which is based on the .45-90 [2.4'] case. I have spoken with many shooters who are using it and the results they have achieved have been very encouraging, if not very successful at long Range. The keys are the heavy .40 cal projectiles ie: 455gr and the 14 twist barrel. Recoil is lower, Velocity I am told is no problem and hits are well noted. I know several shooters who have been longtime users of the .45-90 and .45-100 and are now successfully testing the .40-82 Crossno or .40-82 Lone Star as a Long Range cartridge. However If you would like to talk to someone who can give you the run down on .40 cals for Long range - Dave Crossno is well worth talking too and is very helpful - (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) This .40 vs .45cal question has come up several times on Graybeards and BPCR on msn, Shiloh forum too. A search at these will also reveal answers and opinions to help you... Good luck....
« Last Edit: Feb 28th, 2005 at 8:16am by cam0063 »  
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