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Forend width
Jan 27th, 2005 at 5:51am
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Anyone know what the ASSRA rule is on forends ? How wide can they be ?

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Re: Forend width
Reply #1 - Jan 27th, 2005 at 7:45am
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I'm pretty sure its 3 inch----leadball
  
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KAF
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Re: Forend width
Reply #2 - Jan 27th, 2005 at 7:46am
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Forends are not to exceed 3"
Butt stocks not exceed 2 " width
  

Keith L 3240
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Re: Forend width
Reply #3 - Jan 27th, 2005 at 9:35am
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Are the ASSRA rules posted online? If not, how can I find what the actual rules state?
tia,
-gt
  
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Re: Forend width
Reply #4 - Jan 27th, 2005 at 10:01am
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Contact:

Monte Costa
440 Henry St.
Belle Vernon, PA 15012

assratargets@yahoo.com

Ask for


Match Equipment and Scoring Rule book 


  

Keith L 3240
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PETE
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Re: Forend width
Reply #5 - Jan 27th, 2005 at 4:22pm
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Boats,

  As has been mentioned you should get a rule book since there are quite a few rules governing a match. But here's the rule you wanted to know about.

" Section 1.14 Stocks
  Stocks shall be of wood and patterned generally in the style of stocks found on original rifles of the period, whether European or American. Benchrest stocks may have buttstocks with the bottom line parallel to the bore. Forearms for benchrest stocks shall not exceed three (3) inches in width. Those existing rifles with forearms wider than this need not be changed but new equipment must conform to this dimension. The bottom surface of benchrest stocks shall not exceed two (2) inches in width. Thumbhole and skeleton stocks are specifically forbidden and shall not be shot on the range during matches even though of an experimental nature. Buttstocks patterned in the free style while not forbidden are not encouraged."

  Thngs like triggers, barrels, buttplates, & sights are also covered and should be read over carefully as in some cases differ markedly from BPCRS, or other rifle venues.

PETE
  
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Re: Forend width
Reply #6 - Jan 28th, 2005 at 2:38pm
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Thanks Guys

I ought to get the rule book.  I am looking at a pretty big chunk of wood on my new CPA # 5 Barrel.  In the rough It's Square 2 7/8 inches wide by 10 1/2 inches long.

I understand the way to shape for best result is flat bottomed with a radius to the bottom corners tapering to a smaller top.

One of the modern bench rest guys said you want to slide on the flat and not have any drag on the sides.  If it was a boat hull I would call it tumblehome

I wonder how they measure the 2 inches. Is it the dead flat part on the bottom or up further on the stock.

Anyway I will order the book before doing any cutting

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PETE
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Re: Forend width
Reply #7 - Jan 28th, 2005 at 4:57pm
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Boats,

Quote:
I wonder how they measure the 2 inches. Is it the dead flat part on the bottom or up further on the stock.


   If you will re-read the rule it says "the bottom surface" can't be more than 2".

  Also many of the German Schuetzen rifles have stocks wider than 2". The buttstock on my Stiegele gets pretty close to 3" what with the cheek and thumb piece.

  An idea you might consider if you plan on using your rifle for both bench and offhand. Some of the shooters in our club use a screwed on piece at the toe of the stock that is flat, and the legal width, to get this effect, and have two forends. Kind of a poor mans way of getting the maximum use out of a gun.

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Re: Forend width
Reply #8 - Jan 31st, 2005 at 9:08am
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Pete,

It does day "Bottom surface"  but it does not say bottom of what  ?  I read the rule to say the forearm can be 3 inches but the buttstock bottom must be less than 2 inches.

Must have been writen by a lawer,

On the detachable slide.  I just got another barrel In # 5 with a wide forearm and will switch to it when shooting bench. I plan to use the Stevens # 52 regular offhand buttstock.  could go to some sort of slide or even switch off the buttstocks when bench shooting.  But not yet, they offend my eye.

Talking it over with some of the modern benchrest guys they think I will gain a considerable amount in the extra weight, wide forearm and steady rest.  As far as the buttstock they seem to think advantages to a straight modern type profile are marginal if the forestock set-up is right.

The rifle ought to recoil back with out any twisting but the butt will drop as the bottom is not level. As long as the recoil and resistance to it is consistent it should not be an issue.  If it strings vertical then a slide could bear looking into.

Or so the opinion is. Who knows what will show up on paper.

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PETE
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Re: Forend width
Reply #9 - Jan 31st, 2005 at 10:14am
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Boats,

  I'll buy the lawyer part.  Smiley  And I'll also agree that it can be interpreted differently than how I read it. I just see it as the maximum width of the forearm is 3", and the maximum width of the bottom of the butt stock as being 2". If I'm wrong I'm sure Jim Borton (ASSRA Schuetzenmeister) will correct me.

  Another thing you might consider is a Pope Style sled. I've used one on several guns and find it a great help in postitioning the gun on the front rest, and it will pretty well obviate the need for a flat bottomed butt stock. The Pope Style sled I use has a notch that fits into a pin on your front rest, like the bench resters use, and helps in positioning it in the same spot every shot. I've also found with the sled that you have to move it up and down the barrel to find the "sweet" spot. The big advantage I've found is that on the sub .38's it pretty well eliminates torque, and on the over .38's cuts it down quite a bit.

  Some of our guys also switch butt and forends for bench and offhand, as well as some using a detachable slide. One thing to remember tho is that some matches require you to use only one gun setup for the whole, or series of, matches. This means that if you have your gun set up for bench you can't change stocks over for offhand.  I've never seen this, but it's in the rule book so imagine it's used. So....... I think I'd put on a detachable slide on an offhand stock. Might not be the best of both worlds but sure would be better than trying bench with an offhand stock, or vice versa.

  You're right about the recoil ....... if ....... the gun moves the same for every shot. This is something that rarely happens with guns set up in front and rear bags. It's especially tough with the design of the old SS's, and why I recommend using a Pope sled. That's why many of the .22 shooters in ASSRA competition will use a BSA Martini for bench and switch to something more handy for offhand. You can use either for both but it's a tough row to hoe.

  Your sources for wgt. of the gun are right on. That's also why there's a 2" maximum diam. for the barrel on bench guns, and a minimum length of 21 1/2" for all guns.

  Yep! All your ideas are fairly sound and are used by many...... UNTIL ...... they can afford a gun for each.  Smiley Been there and done that!

PETE
  
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Re: Forend width
Reply #10 - Jan 31st, 2005 at 10:47am
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Pete.

I thought about that Pope sled and may try one.  What I stumbled with is was what to sit it on. It's not high enough by itself and you need some sort of height adjustment to compensate for various benches and target placement.

The best I can come up with is to get a normal bench rest shooters front rest. Then switch between a sand bag or a Pope rest clamped to the barrel and see what works the best. But ether would sit on the Bench rest adjustable tripod mount.

I think in Popes day the rest was mounted to a block of wood and fixed to the bench.

What I am ending up with is two rifles. One is a pure offhand CPA with the high comb Pope type stock. 32/40 and .22 lr. And Scope and Iron sights both mounted high with the same sight line. Have shot that rifle for about 5 years now.

The 2nd rifle and the one I am working on  is a CPA in 38/55 with a Stevens 52 stock and throated for Breech seating intended for Black powder offhand matches. And the 2nd Barrel for that rifle is a # 5 in 32/40 for bench shooting only. That rifle also has scope and iron sights but with a much lower sight line. Hence the lower comb 52 stock. That stock is also better suited for the recoil of the 38 200 gr bullet.

It's a little confusing even when I am looking at them.

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Re: Forend width
Reply #11 - Jan 31st, 2005 at 8:38pm
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Boats,

  A normal bench rest shooters front rest is what I use for the Pope rest. Just leave the bag off, and let the sled slide on the metal surface. I've seen some guys put a teflon strip down to help the sled slide easier. If your rest has side clips to hold the bag firmly in place just adjust them so they almost touch the sides of the sled. Then with the stop pin you'll have about the best way of returning your gun to battery there is.

  I have two tops for my front rest so I don't have to keep switching back and forth for the sled and a normal bag setup. That's so I can use my BSA Martini .22 with the bags since it has a flat forend and has always worked best without a sled on it.

  There were many ways to operate a gun in the old days. Bench shooting as we know it today wasn't quite the same for the old timers. We would call their type bench shooting machine rest, or unlimited, shooting where the whole gun was held in a fixture, and the gun adjusted so as to hit the center. All the shooter had to do then was watch the flags and squeeze off the shot when he thought conditions were right.

  Sounds like you're getting a regular arsenal of guns for this Schuetzen shooting. Altho I don't own a gun with the Stevens 52 stock on it, from what I hear, and read of the Forums, it's a good compromise if you can't have dedicated guns/stocks.

  I hope that 200 gr. bullet for the .38 was a misprint. Most of the guys are shooting 300 to 330 gr. bullets, and the original bullets for the 18 twist were 255 grainers.

PETE
  
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Re: Forend width
Reply #12 - Feb 1st, 2005 at 9:20am
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Pete,

200 grs was miss spoken  It's 300.  When I set the CPA up in 1993 I was concerned that it would not stabilze the 330 grain bullets most people though were required for Silouette. The 300 is stable and has never caused any problem.

It used to leave a few rams standing but most hit were knocked down.

I had shot a lot of modern silouette prior and a 168 gr matchking out of a .308 or 30/06 will not take them down all the time.  In the end knock down is not the issue it's hitting them. That 38/55 is real good at that.

For Schuetzen I could use a ligher bullet and if I have to change will probably go for a 255 with a flat nose.

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Re: Forend width
Reply #13 - Feb 1st, 2005 at 9:23am
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Pete,

Agree with you on the set-up for bench. Am going to try both bags and a Pope style off a modern rest.

I am pretty well set up for offhand. But that's what I like to do. Will have to see about this bench rest sport.

I also keep 2 modern Hunter class silouette guns going as well as a 10m Air rifle.

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Re: Forend width
Reply #14 - Feb 1st, 2005 at 4:56pm
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Boats,

  Figured as much about the 200 vs 300 gr. bullet.  Smiley

  You might want to rethink going to a 255 gr. bullet for Schuetzen. Most of the local guys will use the 300 + bullet in the .38/55 for bench shooting. As you know, the name of the game is to hit that 1 1/2" 25 ring at 200 yds., and considering the velocities we shoot at heavier bullets work best, unless you're a real good wind doper. I have a 330 gr. Brooks design for my .38. but in the orginal 1-18" twist it's not quite as stable as I'd like to see it at 200, so have been using the oversized SAECO 255 gr. bullet. Works ok but you can tell the difference in the deflection.

  I'm with you on the offhand shooting. Altho I shoot bench to, my first love is offhand. I'm never going to be a threat to the good shooters, but I feel offhand is the name of the game in Schuetzen. Must be the Teutonic blood in me!  Smiley The only problem with offhand is that most, if not all Schuetzen matches these days concentrate more on bench shooting. But there are usually enuf matches to keep an offhand shooter busy all day. Especially the 100 shot matches.

  Always wanted to try Shilouette shooting but it's 250 - 300 miles East or West to the nearest ranges and I don't have enuf days in the week to shoot all the venues available within 50 miles, so it's gonna have to be one of those "some day" deals. In fact now that we have a coupla places to shoot 1000 yds. close by I'd really like to try that too. "Some Day!"

PETE
  
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