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clubshoot
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Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Mar 28th, 2005 at 12:54pm
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I used the NJ term as it carries a distinct image. (Some of NJ is attractive, but most of it is a dump)

A friend sent me digital images of a wind measuring system complete with a clock-face arrangement. Claims it was used at Etta Green. The question is apparently what can be done to make the sport more expensive? What next, a computerized weather station? That the Dehass-Miller action is superior in lock time to commonly available actions is a given. It is a fine piece of work. Now I understand the same firm is offering what they call a "Farrow" action which has been so altered internally that it should not qualify for any traditional class shooting. 

A week ago I attended an air rifle international style shoot. Aside from their being very attractive it was encouraging to see teenage girls standing up on their hind legs and firing a 40 shot course.  No matter how much tinkering and "load development" folks pursue, in my opinion the score of 2301 shot by Dr. Walter Hudson, 1903, in one day is the benchmark considering it was done with iron sights.
  
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boats
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #1 - Mar 28th, 2005 at 2:29pm
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Clubshoot I agree with you and stir something up with my opinion

2301 with Iron sights is truly the benchmark offhand.  I don't think any of the "Go Fast" items you see in todays matches help in any way to reach that mark.   

Those complicated wind flags are a negative to shooting high offhand scores. You do need to know what the wind is doing but should be able to tell everything you need from the natural condition indcators.  Dust, smoke, trees, and the wind on your face. 

Bench rest is another matter. Small changes in wind are critical. But  even in Benchrest with our matches unlimited time and sighters avalable  excessive focus on flags is a negative. If it's blowing then don't let the shot off. Who cares how fast the wirlygig is moving

To shoot over 2300 offhand or even 2000 everything has to be reliable mechanicly. But once the gun works properly it's all up to the shooter. The real issue is the shooters ablity whch is why I like the Hudson match.

Boats
  
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PETE
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #2 - Mar 28th, 2005 at 6:03pm
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Clubshoot,

  Yeah! Some of us are using that "clock face" wind indicator at matches. It seems to be quite the thing at the high dollar kind of bench matches. After using one for the better part of last year I'm not really sure I can say it's any better than a decent set of wind flags. You still have to interpret what it's telling you and allow for it.

  As for the electronic stuff, I think most of that is outlawed anyway. Our Schuetzenmeister has even made the threat that if we show up with a tuner on our .22's at EG he'll ban them.

  Your comments about deHass-Miller actions, and others not in the spirit of the game are right on. I see where the WSU has set up two distinct classes so the traditionalists won't be competing directly with the "race" guns.

PETE
  
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boats
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #3 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 4:57pm
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Pete

I agree with you. Normal flags are perfectly adequate.

I don't know what you would do with all that precise speed and direction information anyway. If you have unlimited time you should be waiting out the conditon.

Having said that I do think it's a good idea on match day to spend some time observing the wind direction, duration and speed of gust etc. Just to get a feel for what you should expect when the relay is called.  I don't know how the rules would treat this. 

Could you use an electronic speed indicator pre-match and put it away before you are on the line?  .  How about the new NOAA web site that allows instant and full access to weather radars. Could you have a laptop on line before you shoot to see when the thunderstom will hit ?  Think of it, everyone running like crazy to finish the match and put there gear away while you sit it out and finish in the late afternoon in dead calm conditons.

I have often shot a two day match and reflected after the match that shooting at some particular part of the day gave signifigant advantage to some shooters. Which day to shoot your record targets out of the two avalable is a key factor in final placing.


Most of this doping wind strategy you read so much about was developed due to time limited relays. In service rifle or modern across the course matches you need to get your shots off in a limited time and generaly are sighter limited. In sillouette which I shoot a lot of I can generaly wait out a gust but sometimes do have to let the shot go anyway. Then it's a good idea to have some feel for deflection in the conditon so you can shade the break somewhat. But the big thing the wind does to me is blow my body around more than the bullet once fired.

In our matches it's a good idea to shoot one dead center in the worst possable conditon just to see where it hits the sighter target. You are not going to learn how to hold off or adjust for the record target. Just scares you into waiting the wind out.

The wind is your friend !!!

Boats
  
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leadball
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #4 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 7:45pm
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Boats & others:
                    I have resisted buying these wind indicators but, the guys that are using them are getting very hard [like impossible] to beat in BR, in off-hand their probably of little value.   leadball
  
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PETE
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #5 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 11:28pm
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boats,

  Gotta admit you bring up some interesting thoughts. Personally I'd say as long as you don't use all that electronic equipment DURING the match you could use it. I always keep one of those little battery operated temperature and humidity gauges sitting on my bench. No ones said anything yet...... well they do complain if I don't put it out.  Smiley

  I'd have to look it up in the rule book to find just what isn't allowed, but in most cases it's what the local Schuetzenmeister will allow. Things like the tuner are not addressed specifically, and since Schuetzen is a "Free" rifle game I really find it hard that it can be outlawed.  But the EG Schuetzenmeister has said if you show up with one there he'll outlaw it. Since there is no specific rule against it then it would have to be at the discretion of the local officials. Of course then it would behoove them to be very specific in the match program.

  The strategy we use at our club is that all know that the calmest part of the day usually occurs between the start at 8 AM and 9 AM, so most of the bench .22 targets are shot then. In fact some guys (I'm one) get kinda antsy if we don't start on time.

  Reading the wind in Schuetzen is very critical to success because of the low MV's we have. But, I've seen the time when the wind gets so squirrely that you have to go to the mirage, and all the wind flags in the world won't help you a bit.

Leadball,

  Don't bet to much on the wind not being a factor in offhand. The really good offhand shooters will hold off for it. I've had a little success doing it at times but for me the hardest part is to hold off the center of the bull. Just seems like an unnatural act.

PETE
  
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leadball
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #6 - Mar 30th, 2005 at 12:57am
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pete:
            I didn't mean to suggest that wind was not a significant factor in good off-hand shooting but that the wind indicators as opposed to a set of regular wind flags are probably not very helpful.  I have a hard time holding off for the wind or "holding" anywhere for that matter. leadball
  
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boats
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #7 - Mar 30th, 2005 at 8:23am
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I was kidding of course. I look at computers all week and have no intent of looking at one at a match.

Still a weather strategey in advance is a real good thing to have.  You need to know what is happening and likely to happen during the match.  It does not have to be exact speed and direction, just the trend.

Boats
  
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PETE
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #8 - Mar 30th, 2005 at 8:24am
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leadball,

  Know what you mean about "holding anywhere". Altho I really love shooting offhand I don't think, make that know, I'll never give the hot shot shooters sleepness nites.

  It has always amazed me when reading about the descriptions of offhand shooting the old timers gave....... As the sights slowly swing thru the bull apply pressure to the trigger. As it swings out hold the pressure and repeat till the gun goes off.

  Yeah! Right! My brain can't send a message to my trigger finger fast enuf to keep up with how fast my sights go thru the bull.  Sad

PETE
  
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PETE
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #9 - Mar 30th, 2005 at 8:32am
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boats,

  I figured you were having a little fun. But the picture you get in your minds eye of a full blown weather station set up around your table, with a satellite phone hookup, really gets you thinking of Rube Goldberg! Grin A guy might not even have room for his shooting equipment!
 
Actually I will look at the radar map of the State before going to a match in order to get some idea of what the weathers gonna be. Many times it's been raining while getting ready to leave but looking at the radar map it shows the system will clear the match area shortly so I take off. The reverse is true to. Considering the cost of gas these days it's even more imperative. Got to thinking about the cost of gas as I was driving down to do some High Power Service Rifle practice Monday. Round trip just for gas cost right at $15. 

  Also, as I'm setting up for the day, and between relays, I always keep an eye on the flags, trees and grass so I can get some idea of the prevailing conditions. The prevailing winds here are from 7 to 10 o'clock and on the Schuetzen range the 25, 50, & 100 yd. berms are on that side so you really have to keep an eye on things. You don't want to start shooting in a condition that seldom shows up cuz you might get caught having to shoot when you don't have the foggiest idea where to hold.

PETE
« Last Edit: Mar 30th, 2005 at 8:39am by »  
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JDSteele
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #10 - Mar 30th, 2005 at 9:37am
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leadball,
It has always amazed me when reading about the descriptions of offhand shooting the old timers gave....... As the sights slowly swing thru the bull apply pressure to the trigger. As it swings out hold the pressure and repeat till the gun goes off.

 Yeah! Right! My brain can't send a message to my trigger finger fast enuf to keep up with how fast my sights go thru the bull.  Sad

PETE


Pete, that's exactly the same description my old pistol coach gave me about the slow-fire procedure that would give the best results. I personally found that it takes a lot of practice in dry-firing, with the same trigger, before I could control it well enough to do well. Back then I was in college & could afford only one competition handgun so limiting my practice to one trigger wasn't a problem, but nowadays, what with shooting several different rifles, it's a lot harder. Cheers, Joe
  
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mes
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #11 - Mar 30th, 2005 at 1:48pm
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>>>>>Don't bet to much on the wind not being a factor in offhand. The really good offhand shooters will hold off for it. I've had a little success doing it at times but for me the hardest part is to hold off the center of the bull. Just seems like an unnatural act. >>>
Pete
Thats what them little knobs on the scope are for, Just give them a little twist.  Hope this helps.
mes
  

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boats
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #12 - Mar 30th, 2005 at 3:09pm
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Pete you have got it down pat.  It comes 2nd nature to me as I have worked on the water all my life and the wind controled about everyting I did

Now that I am retired I fish a lot and always have to consider wind before planning a trip. I don't care about dark rain or even cold but when the wind is up it can ruin you.

On that brain giving your finger the signal to let the shot off. Once you get past the mechanical part of shooting offhand Rifle loads sight settings etc, Go through the physical part which is holding and positon and have strategy down pat.

All that is left is the signal your brain sends to your finger. And that part is what seperates the real good shots from the also rans. And is the thing that keeps me from  Challenging Dr Hudson.

Boats
  
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PETE
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #13 - Mar 30th, 2005 at 6:49pm
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Mes,

  Yes! Them little knobs are sure fun to twist around, ain't they?  Grin Pretty soon you forget which way you turned them and how much.

  Seriously tho..... If you will recall my description of our range you'll note that keeping up with wind changes most of the time is about like me keeping up with the gun movement across the bull. I'd be spending most of my time twisting knobs. But..... I did shoot ONCE at a match where the wind blew nice and steady across the range and all the flags showed the wind from the same direction, and same force. That was a lot of fun shooting that day. The only trouble was I can't remember another day like it! Sad 

boats,

  I really do need to practice more, and dry fire a LOT! But like you I play with to many guns to get the hang of any one of them. So I end up flinching and jerking the trigger, and maybe half a dozen other things I don't realise I'm doing. Right now I've spent all Winter at the "Y" building back up the strength in my legs. Coming back slow but sure, but looks like it'll be another 6 months to a year to get back to where I was, if it's possible at all. Sure raised havoc with my offhand scores on the .22 Postal Match this year. Thinking maybe I'll get bragging rights on last place!  Undecided

PETE
  
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waterman
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Re: Avoiding "New Jerseyfication"
Reply #14 - Mar 31st, 2005 at 1:17pm
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You guys have an advantage with your fancy ranges & wind flags.  Here behind the redwood curtain, the land is mostly steep and places flat enuff for a range are cluttered up with houses.  Too many of them.  We only have one formal range and it is real near the ocean beach and uses sand dunes as a backstop.  The winds in summer blow unpredictably from the Aleutians or someplace.  The beach grass makes good wind flags. When it is blown flat, switch from your good SS to the SKS or practice with your huntin' rifle.  When the seagulls  get blown sideways across your sights, it's either time to go home or time to get out the trapdoor.  The 200 yard range is the most exposed, but the 100 yard isn't much better.  I have never seen one of those ringy targets you guys use, but there are days when keeping the Winder in the 9 ring of a reglar 100 yard target (at 100 yards) is a real challenge.  Singleshots here are real few & far between.   The only newish ones are Rugers and the odd Italian roller.  So it's a good day at the range when the guy next to you does not have some autoloading gizmo that throws brass about or a belted magnum to deafen the neighborhood.
  
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