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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort (Read 11544 times)
dick_norton
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$10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Mar 28th, 2005 at 5:27pm
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The only excitement about single shot rifles is the bit of controvery that surfaces from time to time. Nothing wrong with that, probably healthy. But how do we recapture the interest generated when Coors was sponsoring those shoots?
Money. Nothing stirs folks competitive nature like the promise of substantial reward. Let's offer the prize and publicize the offer in many shooting journals. Let's try to get Olympians like Matt Emmons interested in this sport, at least for the money. 
The ads would carry a website that would offer the history and romance of this fine sport. Links also to folks like CPA, Ballard, etc. Maybe even get old David Tubbs into this. Or the kid from California who is beating David's records. The rules would be simple; single shot rifle of 1917 type or replicas of same, iron sights, shot in one day. No jackets.

Chances are this campaign would only cost as much of the ads. Throw down the glove to these international type shooters, challenge them, offer the prize.
  
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leadball
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #1 - Mar 28th, 2005 at 8:58pm
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Thingy Norton;
                     Very interesting concept, I think there are young shooters out there that could possibly do the job with a little practice on the German Ring target. The Iron Sights makes it all but impossible for the older shooters presently in the game.  Your well aware that scores in the 2300s have been done several times in the last 23 years, with scopes. 
                      Jim luke has about 6--2300s    
                      J.   Feren has the highest score about2347?
             do you beleive one of these young boys or girls could do a 2300 with one of our rifles and Irons.    leadball
  
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dick_norton
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #2 - Mar 28th, 2005 at 9:32pm
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Yes, Jim and Jim have been and remain outstanding shots. One of the problems older shooters have, and just hitting 70 I understand, is that we don't practice much with iron sights. A mere 49 years ago at the AAMU, Ft. Benning, it was proven to me that the opical error at 600 yards was about 2". This was done by having a stationary MI pointed at a reversed target. Communicating by hand-crank phones, and with the "shooter" looking through the sights, a person at the target received directions and moved a 20" disc until the shooter ssid "mark it". The disc had a hole in the center and it was marked with a pencil. Center to center of most distant marks averaged just a fraction over 2". Conditions were a black target against a white background, a six-oclock hold, sights blackened, post front, aperature rear. And younger eyes. The eyes are not really the problem for older shooters. In most cases shooting glasses, aperatures, etc., can make most corrections. What older shooters suffer from, and it appears that this happens generally past 60, is a that the brain is shrinking and along with it a similar decline in the balance system. The shaking we experience comes from trying to maintain an aiming point while the central nervous system is lagging behind. Just watch geezers trying to do things in a hurry. Herky, jerky, nowhere.  Balance exercises will help. Keep the legs strong. But it ain't never going to be the same. The secret is to never grow old. I'm working this problem and when I have compounded a medical nostrum you will see me peddling it on an TV infomercial. Can't be any more questionable then the penis enlargement pills being hustled!  As to the shooting of 2301 with irons it will take a world class shooter performing under very good conditions. Should we lower the threshold. Maybe dropping the level for female shooters. Just kicking ideas around to stir things a bit. Since we don't have costumes and six guns, nor do we play SWAT team wannabees, we need something to stir the pot. Maybe publications would jump on the challenge aspect of the deal. 
Like our Editor is finding out stories can sometimes be hard to find. How many more bullcrap articles can we stand in the American Rifleman about the "ideal caliber" for Whitetails,etc.

  
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joeb33050
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #3 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 5:28am
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Hi Dick;
May I have permission to use your story about 2" 600 yard sighting error in an article on the same? Proper attribution of course.
Thanks;
joe b.
Joe Brennan
  
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dick_norton
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #4 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 8:43am
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Sure. And I may attempt to do the same exercise with new HP shooters at the Phoenix range. I recall reading somewhere that Harry Pope, upon learning of Hudson's score, commented that "he must have used iron sights". What was Pope trying to convey? Possibility that the wiggle visible in a scope contributes to negative thoughts and diminished confidence and resultant poorer performance for the shooter. Meantime I'll continue working on my "cure" for what ails older shooters. Active ingredients to date include, LSD, Meth, Viagra,Ex-Lax.
  
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PETE
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #5 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 1:54pm
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Dick_Norton,

  Your comments on optical error sounds exactly like what we did when starting out shooting on the small bore rifle team. Only we called it Personal Sighting Error (PSE). It was set up and run the same way you describe. Everybody has it to one degree or another, but we also learned that you can improve the amount of error you have with practice.

  Some people seem to have the ability to resolve finer details than others. This is why people like Hudson, Pope, Luke & Ferren are able to shoot better than others, all else being equal. That plus a great deal of practice.

  I think a lot of PSE can be attributed to what you want to achieve. All the shooters on our rifle team were within + or - 1 yr. of being 20 yrs. old, yet there was quite a bit of difference in PSE. I've always thought most of the difference was due to.... for want of a better word.... laziness, or poor eyesight.

PETE
  
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dick_norton
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #6 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 3:33pm
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As to that PSE, and his being blessed with skills and confidence, I watched 83 y.o. Auggie Westergard shoot fine iron sighted scores from the bench! The Army coaches hammered us time and again with 1939 1000 yd Championship at Camp Perry. A marine Pfc shooting on the 5 ring target kept 27 straight shots in the 20" V ring! (You were permitted to keep shooting past the initial 20 rounds so long as you were in the V-ring) He shot a Springfield 03, the Marines did not adopt the M1 until about 1941. I don't know if he shot it with issue sights in which case the sight radius would have been no more than 18". He probably shot Palma Match made by Remington. 
  
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joeb33050
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #7 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 4:13pm
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Thanks, Dick.
As for PSE, Pete, I'm in the middle of an article about an article "Factors of Sighting Error", in the April 1977 Rifleman (Thanks Rudi), which explains what happened when they used servos etc to duplicate Dick's experience. Here, irons beat a 2.5X scope. Larry bean told me 20 years ago that a good shooter can do almost as well with irons as with scope, maybe better. The winter league at Old Colony shoots 20 weeks from a heated shooting house at 200 yards offhand, scope, irons, Howes (10# gun, 3# trigger, flat butt), 40# and RF. The highest score in each match is hung on the wall, by Feb they're all high 190's and maybe scope is a point or 2 higher than irons, maybe not. Last year Pres Campbell shot a 200 in the Eastern Mass league(irons 200 yd.), outside in the spring in the wind. About Jim Feren, I saw him show up from nowhere, beat everybody in town, set records that still stand, and go away. TALENT can't be beat with knowledge or practice or EX-LAX, I'm living proof, I shot offhand seriously for 20 years and never got to be even fair. My best score offhand in 20 years was 192, and L. Hall brought the target into the clubhouse to demonstrate his amazement. Others, beginners, shot low-mid 190's  in a month. I think I remember Dick Norton at the Palmisano range the year the granite memorial went in, cleaning all clocks without breaking a sweat. TALENT beats practice every time.
I think.
joe b.
  
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #8 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 4:41pm
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I would guess there are a dozen guys shooting today that could match Dr Hudsons 2300 score with Iron sights. To shoot that score Irons would not be the real handicap. Not making any errors or off shots is what you need to do.

What I would be more intrested is a matching prize, one for traditonal class rifles and one without any rules other than Iron sights.

I would guess there is no pratical difference in potental score with the more modern strker actions.  You would have to go to real fast lock time and velocity like a modern bolt action could provide  to improve on a typical well set up pre 1917 single shot. Bench rest is another matter but in my mind offhand the old boys are just as good.

Boats
  
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #9 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 5:46pm
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What would be the difference in size of the NRA[200 yd] target and the 200yd German Ring target.   leadball
  
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dick_norton
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #10 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 7:05pm
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Thanks Joe for remembering the good ol' days of the Coors Regionals. I was a callow youth of 53. Now just callow. Recently I spent much research time on this matter of diminished reflex speeds  and postural instability as we age. 
There is no magic pill. Naturally, lower body conditioning. That wiggle seems to focus around the hips but that is a result and not a cause. The other thing being suggesed is video games, fast ones like NASCAR. I have not looked into this yet but it makes sense. Contrary to accepted shooting practice the use of a stimulant might help. The good neurological sites suggest that 50mg of caffine 30 minute prior to starting an endeavor has proven helpful via extensive testing.  That's about 1/2 cup of strong brewed coffee. I believe the No-Doz tablets are 200mg each for those sensitive to coffee. "Choking" via stress.
I've really suffered during tennis competitions. What happens is that your shots start falling about 1 foot shorter in the court. The cause is a very subtle tightening of major muscle groups.  This takes pressure off your opponent and puts you under the gun. At this time in life I'm simply going to the firing line, get the best sight picture I can, fleeting that it may be, and squeeze off. No stress in the back or stomach. Accept that shot, move on to the next. Most important, laugh and have some fun. No use crying.  Two weeks ago I talked with three time Gold medalist Lones Wigger, Lt.Col. (ret) at a major smallbore shoot. He holds the record at 50 & 100 meters prone. 400x400. Now he shoots 396's what puts him deep in the standings. Wigger is about 66 years old. A 20 y.o. female won the shoot. Pretty good looking too.
  
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #11 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 7:30pm
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Dick "thingy" Norton:
                    I wonder if Stee-roids would help my off-hand, I know this baseball guy that-----.   leadball
  
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marlinguy
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #12 - Mar 29th, 2005 at 11:19pm
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I've never shot rifle competitively, but I did shoot Bullseye Match pistol for a number of years. I found that in my youth, the times I shot best were matches held in the evening, after I had worked all day, and was basically dog tired!
I seemed to have enough jitters on Saturday AM matches, that I couldn't settle down, and shoot well. But when I was pretty tired, I settled in quickly, and shot the best scores I ever had.
In the old days of competitive shooting, prize matches were what got a lot of really good shooters involved. I think there are still those who are in it for the monetary reward, as well as the personal satisfaction. I think a prize match might bring in some more interest. It might also intimidate some average, or below shooters. 
It is an interesting subject though!
  
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PETE
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #13 - Mar 30th, 2005 at 12:06am
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Joe,

  In my opinion the ability to beat a scope with iron sights would depend on how well that person could resolve the target, or their PSE. In my own case, at 65, I've never felt handicapped with iron sights out to 100 yds. After that tho a person of equal ability will beat me with a scope, and I shoot better scores to. A scope can be made to correct any focus problems you have, plus it puts everything on the same focal plane. Of course the magnification doesn't hurt any either.

Dick,

  There might be something to a stimulant helping your score. The best pistol shot in the State always has a 20 oz. bottle of Mtn. Dew that he sips on during the match. I asked him once about it and he said if he doesn't drink it he starts getting the shakes. Some of the latest thinking I've read on the subject tells you not to change your eating & drinking habits less than two weeks before a match or it will disrupt your system.

  But, on the other hand, the old time Schuetzen shooters had a saying that if you have to run to catch the train for a match.... stay home! That about sums it up for me.

  Some people have to stay focused for an entire relay, whereas I have to let down after every shot, look around, and then bring myself up for the next shot.

  The main thing is that every person has to find out what works best for them.

PETE
  
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dick_norton
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Re: $10,000.00 prize for beating Hudson's effort
Reply #14 - Mar 30th, 2005 at 7:57am
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Leadball, raising the testosterone level by injecting steroids just does not have any effect on relex speed or balance. I did research the topic. If it would help us old shooters our rear ends would look like pincushions! Early on, when I started this topic touting the 2301 shot by Hudson it may have appeared that I was ignoring the 2300 + scores shot by Jim Luke and Jim Feren. Their scores are brilliant in their own right.







  
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