Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rules Dr Hudson shot under (Read 16007 times)
coolhd
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 54
Joined: Sep 6th, 2004
Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #15 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 11:20pm
Print Post  
Dick, you and leadball may have something.  A 10 shot bench match  for group size to beat Rowland"s record would bring more participation than an offhand match. A lot more!

Jim Luke
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SPG
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 77
Joined: Apr 9th, 2005
Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #16 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 12:50am
Print Post  
Pete,
Club affiliation with the WSU is simple...20 bucks buys a subscription to the NEWS that contains "The Center Shot" which reports on matches, records, and new information particular to the WSU. This sub is sent to the club's Schuetzenmeister. The club (or any individual) can buy targets...call me at 307-587-7609. Affiliated clubs can also buy medals and bars from the WSU and we are keeping a set of records that have been shot under the WSU rules.

We are not doing individual memberships...for two reasons. One, I think it would be "trespassing" too much on the two already established Schuetzen organizations and as I said in the NEWS article the purpose of the WSU is to promote Schuetzen shooting, not steal thunder away from the ASSRA or the ISSA.

Two, witness what is going on in the ASSRA at this very moment. I'm not taking any sides in past or current debates, mainly because I don't know all sides of the issues. My point is this...the WSU is run by a small group of charter members who are all believers in that most efficient form of government...the benevolent dictatorship. If we accepted individual outside members (and their money) things would soon become complicated. That may change in the future, but for right now we are a group of shooters interested in promoting Schuetzen and rest shooting. Club affiliation simply lets a club shoot under WSU rules when they choose to, and have those results recorded. I see no reason why the ASSRA couldn't affiliate with the WSU. It would benefit both organizations. 

I would really like to see an old-time "telegraph match" between the WSU and the ASSRA...and our Fall Election Day match in October would be the perfect time. I think it would also gin up some interest...with the proper prize money...to interest the usual collection of sharks. (Cool Hand, are you reading this?) Jack Odor and I have been talking about this for several years now and I think that the Western offhand enthusiasts versus the Eastern enthusiasts would generate some healthy rivalry...not to mention providing some interesting text for the Journal. 

Before anyone asks...the WSU does not do BPCR Silhouette, buffalo matches, gong matches, Long range, mid-range, .22 silhouette, black powder trap or skeet, cowboy action, or windows. We are focused on Schuetzen offhand shooting and bench rest shooting...which fills our plate up quite nicely. We are not being "exclusive"...we are just realizing our limitations.

We are working on getting more benches at the Cody range. Right now we have 18 firing points...36 shooters divided up on two relays works well in the Spring. Later on, we can handle three relays. The Cody Club has plans for 30 more benches but I don't think this will happen till at least Fall. The Cody Shooting Complex is a great gun club but it has it's usual bureaucracy whose wheels turn slowly.

We would sure like to see a contingent of ASSRA shooters at next years's WSU Schuetzenfest...and I'm working on some Western shooters to make the trip to Etna Green.

Steve Garbe
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PETE
Ex Member


Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #17 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 7:34am
Print Post  
Steve,

  Thanks for the reply. I won't go over everything in your message but would like to touch on the individual membership if you don't mind.

  I do belong to a Schuetzen club but the officers in their infinite wisdom, over the objection of many/most of the members, will not affiliate with any SS organization. There might be other clubs whose members are in the same boat.

  Also, I would not hesitate to say that the majority of the shooters who will read this thread don't belong to any club at all. That would leave the vast majority of SS shooters no opportunity to partake in your matches. The only way I would have of comparing myself in a match with other ASSRA, ISSA, or WSU shooters would be thru postal matches.

  Personally I like your target and I like your rules, especially the separation of the traditonal and modern(?) shooters.

  Maybe if I can get some targets from you I'll just shoot your Election Day match (on the day specified) by myself just so I can see how I compare with you guys. I can think of a coupla other guys I can probably drag in too.  Smiley

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PETE
Ex Member


Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #18 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 7:48am
Print Post  
  I really like the idea of the matches Dick & Jim are advocating, but I do have a few questions......

  Who's going to be running the match & guaranteeing the $1,000 or $10,000 money to the winner?

  What will be the entrance fee?

  As Joeb mentions in another message who's going to verify that the targets were shot legally? Even back in the old days they had what was called the "Johnstown Dodge", which pretty well covers what Joe mentions. This is why the really important matches had target Markers and Warners, and if your gun went off the result was marked as your shot. Hit or miss!

  As Steve mentions in another message, the old time shoots were set up so that just about everybody won something for their efforts. From his talk it seems the WSU will be doing the same thing. From the talk here this doesn't seem to be the case, so if there is an entrance fee what incentive do I have to shoot this match when I know I will stand little, or no chance of winning?

  As I say, I hate to bring all this up but if it isn't addressed all we're doing is blowing smoke and nothing will ever come of it.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
ASSRA Journal Editor
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 4189
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #19 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 8:30am
Print Post  
I have been folowing this thread and I have a couple of Ideas. 
Match funding How about the match shooters funding the prize. Set a match fee of the target price plus $25.00 that would go in the pot. it won't take long for the prize to grow and the more money in the pot the more compitition for the prize. This match won't be won at the first try. The match would have to be shot during a club sponsered event on the correct target with witnesses under the rules that Steve sets up.
As to the east-west team match I think this is a great Idea. Both teams could pick a day and shoot the match at their respective clubs. Then share targets and scores over the internet. This is the kind of event that could draw interest to the sport from outside the Schuetzen comunity. Hopefully this would attract new shooters to our sport.
As to Mr. Welch's claim in the Roland record. As I understand the story it was shot without witnesses. Mr. Welch's ethical lapses of the past cast serious doubt on the event. 

40 Rod
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PETE
Ex Member


Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #20 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 11:48am
Print Post  
  For those of you with access to the Nov. 26, 1903 issue of Shooting & Fishing, or the May-June 1989 issue of the ASSRA Journal, there is a good picture of the rifle that Hudson used in his 1903 record score.

  One thing of note...... Hudson shot his record with a duplex load of 5 grs. duPont #1 smokeless and the rest of the shell loaded with Fg Semi-Smokeless (black). Will this mean that those wishing to see if they can break the record will have to refrain from using a full charge of smokeless?

  On another note Hudsons record was broken by Jim Feren in 1987 at a match at the Modesto Rifle Club with a score of 2319-16c. But he used smokeless powder and a scope. So probably not "legal" in the spirit of trying to duplicate Hudson's record.

PETE


PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dick_norton
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 257
Location: payson, arizona
Joined: Jul 7th, 2004
Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #21 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 4:29pm
Print Post  
40 Rod, I agee that all participants get something, even a small medallion showing they participated. Last weekend I shot in the Arizona State Muzzleloading Championships. Each competitor, and there was over 60, received just for showing up 1lb of black powder. (50 lbs was donated)Then based on the scores each competitor chose from a table of merchandise. They stuff was abundant and of good quality. Agg. winners, match winners, received the usual plaques. But it was a well-run fun event and folks enjoyed getting a little something back
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
PLuton
Newbie
*
Offline



Posts: 5
Joined: Apr 15th, 2005
Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #22 - Apr 15th, 2005 at 5:52am
Print Post  
Hi,

Just a few observations from a newcomer to Schuetzen-style shooting, in fact my ONLY match so far has been the one at Cody, Wyoming at the beginning of the month.

Humans are, by their very nature, competitive and I for one would not have taken up shooting if it didn’t present a challenge.  However, as several of you have said, the goal needs to be attainable.

How about taking the highest offhand score set last year under whatever conditions are deemed appropriate then up that by a set amount (rather like raising the bar in the high jump) to make it a real challenge.  Award a prize to the first person to beat it then raise the bar again.  This might lead people towards a new record without making it exceptionally difficult in the first place.

With regard to sighters and the size of targets, I agree with Jim Luke that the fixed sight-in period and only firing a fixed number of shots worked well and I feel it gives a truer measure of a shooters ability.  Here in England at Bisley, all matches allow only a fixed number of sighting shots (usually between 2 and 5, although they are frequently convertible) before shooting for score and any misses are misses.  As a complete newcomer, I felt that this, combined with their new target with scoring rings going out to 10 rather than 15 as on targets I had seen previously, presented a real challenge.

It would seem that getting younger people into the sport is a problem in the USA so I was very pleased to see youngsters like Nolan Kearns and Cordell Betters taking part in the match.  It is also a problem in England and when I was at a pistol competition in Germany a few years ago, the secretary of the Club there told me that the “membership numbers stay the same but the average age get higher”.  Anything we can do to attract new people into the sport (and keep their interest) gets my vote.

Hope this hasn’t strayed too far off topic.  Best wishes to all the people I met in Cody, I really enjoyed my first competition and it definitely won’t be my last,

Pete Luton

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
coolhd
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 54
Joined: Sep 6th, 2004
Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #23 - Apr 15th, 2005 at 10:08am
Print Post  
Pluton, glad to read your input on this topic.  I think you have a splendid idea about determining the score for the 100 shot Hudson match with iron sights.

A fifty shot version of this match is fired every year at the ISSA matches in Raton.  The high score to date is Earl Hines' 1117.  Take this times two and you have 2234.  Having shot this match several times, I feel breaking 2200 would be quite an accomplishment.  That's averaging 22 points per shot.  That's not extremely high, but you sure couldn't have too many wide shots and still achieve that score.

Hopefully, Dick Norton and Steve Grabe will have something to say about your ideas.

This Hudson Match topic has generated a lot of talk on this web site.  Hopefully, that will lead to a real match in the future.

Coolhd
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
waterman
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2503
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Joined: Jun 9th, 2004
Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #24 - Apr 16th, 2005 at 12:26am
Print Post  
I've been a SSR enthusiast for a long time, but I've never shot in any kind of competitive match.  So I have some observations and some questions.  The first observation is that a 100 shot score is not twice a 50-shot match score.  I've never done it, but I'd wager that the first 10 shots are a lot closer to the center than the last 10 shots.  Us mortals get tired.  'Specially those of us in the age bracket where SS rings the social security bell before it rings the SSR bell.  BAck when we were all in a flap about statistics, somebody posted a bit about analyzing the scores for a 100 shot match.  Shot offhand with a .22, IIRC.  But if that person still has the data, it would be informative to look back & see if the average score for the preceeding 5 shots changed over time.  Whether the rifle is a .22 or a .32-40, lifting it to your shoulder 100 times takes about the same amount of effort.

Second, there seems to be a bit of confusion on my part about rifle specs.  I assume that back in 1903, Dr. H was shooting a Schuetzen rifle, a heavy one set up for offhand and one with a DST.  If we have an offhand match for 10 lb. rifles with 3 lb. trigger pulls, it needs to be called something else.  Creedmore offhand, maybe.

3rd, I assume that Dr. Hudson needed to clean his rifle once in a while.  Is/was that within the rules?

4th, please explain about the rules for coats, etc. & shoes.  As a former forester from out west, if I was to enter a Hudson match, I'd grease up my White's custom-made loggers boots with undershot high heels and 14" lace up tops and wear those with some comfy new socks.  Would that make me ineligible?  Is there some sort of dress code?  Do I need a necktie?

5th, I think I'll try this, maybe tomorrow.  But the only rifle I have that will reliably shoot 100 rounds without weeks of special bullet casting is my Ballard gallery .22.  Is there a .22 version of the Hudson match?  If so, at what range?  I'll try 100-yard smallbore targets at 100 yards for starters.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
PETE
Ex Member


Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #25 - Apr 16th, 2005 at 8:27am
Print Post  
Waterman,

  You're absolutely right about the fatique factor entering into a 100 shot match. There aren't to many of us that are in good enuf shape to shoot a match that long and not be tired. Especially if you're shooting a 12 lb. rifle. In fact the next day there are usually complaints about how sore everyone is! Having shot in several of those matches tho..... and I'm 65...... what I've found is that your scores for the individual targets goes up and down in a manner that would look like a wave pattern if graphed out. The last score is not necessarily your worst either.

  Your mention of shooting the .22 reminded me of an article in an old Journal. Seems this author was showing how at least several modern day shooters had regularly beaten Hudsons record. What got me shaking my head about that was the fact that they had done it with .22 rifles and shot those scores at 100 yds. Where's the fatique factor and the increase in shooting error with distance? As far as I could see the whole article was worthless....... and yet it was repeated a coupla years later as tho this was important news!

  You're also right about the rifle Hudson used to make his record. It was a .32/40 Ballard. From the picture of it, it appears to be a Union Hill #8 with a Schuetzen buttplate and DST. About the only difference between it and most Schuetzen rifles of the era was that, altho not a rare feature, Hudson attached a cork pad on the forend just in front of the frame, rather than using a palm rest. A 10 pd. wgt. limit and 3 pd. trigger pull would be the requirement of the NRA matches of that era, and were meant to simulate the military rifles of the era. In Schuetzen shooting of the period if you could hold it up in the offhand position you could shoot it. Altho the average was about 12 pds., some used guns weighing up around 16 pds. and more Set triggers were the norm, and as long as they were safe there was no problem.

  Hudson used a duplex load for his record, so as far as I can recall I haven't read whether he cleaned his rifle between shots or not. One fact that might have said he didn't was that he used the muzzleloading method which reduced the need for cleaning. But, since BP was still being used by many shooters they were allowed to wipe the bores out between shots. In fact many shooters were very religious about it being very careful to wipe exactly the same for every shot.

  Clothing rules..... This is gonna get ticklish in the future. It will depend on whether you're shooting under ASSRA, or WSU rules. The ASSRA is more liberal in letting you use a shooting coat, while the WSU forbids it, if I read their rules right. Shoes? I don't recall whether anybody has a rule about those. And. No you don't have to wear a neck tie if you don't want to, altho some will, and also wear a shooters apron and bowler hat. In fact I'm kinda looking for the latter now!  Grin

  .22 Hudson match?...... Again ASSRA and WSU might look at this cal. differently. The ASSRA does have such a match, but not sure about the WSU. Our club doesn't shoot a 100 shot .22 match but we do have several different 10 shot matches (bench & offhand) and they are shot at 100 yds. using the 100 yd. German ring target. You can use the 100 yd. Small Bore Rifle target if you'd like but it's quite a bit larger. If you use it then make up an overlay with a 3/4" 25 ring and add an additional 3/8" to the radius of each suceeding ring to get an idea of how you'd do in an actual match. If you end up with a score over 200 per ten shots you're doing doing better than most. Let us know how you came out.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dick_norton
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 257
Location: payson, arizona
Joined: Jul 7th, 2004
Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #26 - Apr 16th, 2005 at 11:45am
Print Post  
I'm going to find out about that fatique factor next week as we are having a 100 shot one day at Phoenix.

It is up to the individual shooter  to maintain a level of fitness that fulfills and suits their lifestyle. It's the individuals choice. We cannot overcome many elements of "wear and tear" but we can compensate by conditioning everythng else. No one has to really decay that much. From what I'm reading, and from what I see at fitness centers, it is established that males can increase muscle mass and strength at up to 90 years of age! I was watching a guy yesterday who was about 80. His workout was impressive as was his appearance. And he was a very upbeat person. A couple of days ago I was looking a pictures of folks in the Smokey Mountain area circa 1920. Some were very leathery. But they stood erect and looked very fit. They didn't sit in front of the boob tube watching men run up and down a court or field with an inflated animal skin. I'm 70 and am experiencing a loss of "touch". But you keep in shape and shoot your best. Well-known shooter Chuck Blender, and I wish he would do an article on his training methods, notes that shooting is very muscle specific. He suggests holding the rifle in the offhand position and do knee bends. Chuck also said that he mounted a block of wood on a door frame and pushed up against that  with his rifle. A static exercise.  Just picking up and dry firing 30 minutes or more a day should keep the shooting system in decent shape. From a metabolic standpoint it makes more sense to eat small snacks on a continual basis during a long event. Keeps the blood sugar level up. Plan ahead. When I was doing much distance running the accepted theory was to really eat a heavy meal of complex carbs the night before a race. That is stored energy. The challenge for all of us older shooters is to simply get off  our butts and do our best.

Dick
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
PETE
Ex Member


Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #27 - Apr 16th, 2005 at 4:07pm
Print Post  
Dick,

  I couldn't agree more. I work out four days a week. Two days on the wgt.'s for upper body strength and endurance, and four days on aerobics for endurance. As a result tho my shooting suffered terribly during our Winter indoor shooting, but I'm trying to look at the long term benefits this Summer as I get to the point where what I'm doing doesn't wear me out completely for the day.

  As you mention, it would be nice if someone who knows what specific exercises would benefit us as shooters would post something. Mostly what I'm doing is to strengthen up a pair of legs that got bunged up pretty badly a year ago. Those are pretty well under control now so switching over to something that would be more specific to our sport would be nice to know. Your points on what Chuck Blender does are good and will be good to look at. Never thought of the deep knee bends while holding your rifle up (one of my weak points), but I have read that the knees are one of the first things to go in your muscle and bone structure so anything to keep them in shape would certainly be a help.

  I have to laugh when you mention people can improve their physical conditioning up to a very advanced age. So true! As I mentioned before I'm 65. When I started on my wgt. schedule I admittedly started out light at about 3000 pds. per 7 station workout. But I've worked that up to 8100 pds. now and am scheduling another 200 pds. for the first of the week. My goal is to get up to 10,000 pds. and then keep it there.

  The best thing, of course, would be to shoot a coupla hours a day, but not many have the time or can afford the expense so doing some wgt. and aerobic training is the next best thing in my opinion.

Now if I can just knock off the 20 pds. the doc thinks I ought to.  Grin

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
dick_norton
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 257
Location: payson, arizona
Joined: Jul 7th, 2004
Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #28 - Apr 17th, 2005 at 2:28pm
Print Post  
After a somewhat disappointing practice session this am, it has finally dawned on me that proper rest prior to a match is important. Yesterday I did a very long high intensity workout on a cross trainer followed by leg and lower back work. I was just tired this morning and a bit subpar. Consider that a baseball pitcher, a starter, only works every fourth or fifth day. Maybe those pitching coaches are on to something! Probably good to avoid workouts a couple of days prior to a shoot.

Dick
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
coolhd
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 54
Joined: Sep 6th, 2004
Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #29 - Apr 17th, 2005 at 6:12pm
Print Post  
Dick, you are correct about the conditioning routine.  I have found it best to halt my exercise program 3 or 4 days before a match.  Then I'm usually at full strength come match day.  Olympic training manuals recommend the same type of schedule.

Although we stand still--or try to--in offhand shooting, the physical toll of picking up the rifle at least 100 times and putting it down an equal number is fatiguing.  Think about it.  If the rifle weighs 16lbs as mine does, then you have lifted a minimum of 1600 lbs for a 100 shot match.  So we need all the energy we can muster during the competition.

Good luck at Phoenix!  Wish I could be there.

Coolhd
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 
Send TopicPrint