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Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Apr 12th, 2005 at 10:21am
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Steve Garbe gave a very intresting response to the exchanges on Dr Hudsons record. Will paste part of it here.  I wonder if there was a time or relay limit involved too,  From the information Steve posted the record is very difficult indeed. I had said I thought there were at least a dozen shooters today that could equal the score.  Considering no sighters and limited to 100 shots fired, not just on the paper I wonder if any living shooter could do it.  The way we shoot the game sighters are key to a good score. Perhaps it could be equaled  but it would truly be a feat.

Paste.

Something to consider- Hudson set his record in a match that had some definite differences to the typical offhand matches of today. First, there were no sighters allowed during the match...in fact, in my research it appears as if the first shot fired was for score. Secondly, even though he set his record using iron sights he did it in an "any sight' match. Third, every shot fired counted for score...no shooting till you had 100 shots on paper, it was 100 shots for score; this is what blew Pope out of the running. Fourth, shooting coats/vests/shoes weren't allowed. These are all things that to one degree or another are allowed in today's Schuetzen shooting and can represent a huge difference...especially the use of sighter targets during the match and the 100 shots on paper versus 100 shots fired. 

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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #1 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 12:06pm
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Yes, I found Steve's post most interesting.

Is a old record really broken if it is shot with our new rifles, powders, sights and with unlimited sighter shots?

Maybe the score would be equaled but if not shot in the same manner with similar equipment then I say No Way was it bettered or equaled.

I think it would be more of an accomplishment if done as it was then, or as close to that as possible.
None of the rifles that are manufactured today unless they are very close to the originals.  None of the new cartridges.

It would be exciting to see it done the "Old" way.

  

Keith L 3240
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #2 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 5:00pm
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Considering the practice level of that era, and not knowing if some competitors had practiced earlier that day, or the day before, the question of sighters is sort of open. I'm sure the shooters "warmed up" by at least firing fouling shots into the backstops. I recall muzzleloading shoots were scopes were not permitted. But nothing stopped a person from shooting at a stone with someone spotting the dust. Same for matches were sighters were not permitted. You simply shot a practice target or reentry and went for record on the next relay.  And, back to the Hudson era shooters, if they shot the day before they had a good elevation setting, the variable being wind. After that a very good shot can make that wind adjustment from a carefully called shot. If the winds vary you read the flags and make the adjustment.
Hudson used iron sights of the vernier type. The challenge is immense. But that is what all competitive shooting is about. It's nice to shoot that fine score but it's satisfying to just participate and know you did your best. Whatever you call such an event, it would be much fun and perhaps gain us a few adherants.
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #3 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 5:21pm
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It's true, as Steve Garbe says, that you took 100 shots and that was your score...... hit or miss. Your shots were recorded as you took them by a scorekeeper who recorded them on your score card. This had to be done since many people shot on the same target.

  Pope missed winning a match one time when while loading his gun (muzzle-breech loader) he saw a friend enter the shooting house and went to greet him. On returning he must have thought that he'd put the bullet down, because he fired it with just a charged case and it was recorded as a missed shot.

  A coupla things Garbe didn't mention in his article... if I recall right.... One was that there was no time limit on shooting your 100 shots, other than it had to be in the allotted time of the match. Some were even known on two day shoots to see they weren't shooting well that day and came back the next to finish. Second, as mentioned, there were no sighter shots, but, a Schuetzen match was composed of many matches and your gun could be fouled and sighted in for the days conditions on any of them before starting the 100 shot match, or any other important match.

  One thing I don't recall ever reading tho was if once you started your 100 shot match that you had to fire it straight thru, even if you did it over a two day period. It would be interesting to know that if conditions changed drastically, or you came back to finish the next day with a clean gun, whether you could break it off and shoot another match to correct any problems before continuing.

PETE
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #4 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 9:46pm
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Dick Norton;  You might as well throw-in the Rowland Match for the BR shooters, this 10 shot group target [.727] has never been equaled, at least legally. 
                  It seems to me that the record is 2301 off-hand  with Irons,singleshot with plain base bullets, it is of little importance to consider  all the other variables of the original match.
                 There have been a bunch of great shooters mentioned in this thread that are quite capable of shooting 2302 but I still think the Iron Sights is the big barrier.  leadball
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #5 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 11:00pm
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Pete,
I've read four different accounts of the Election day match of 1903...three were first-hand. The scope controversy over whether scopes would be allowed or not took up a couple of hours in the morning. Some shooters, including L.P. Ittel who was a favorite to win, just flat ran out of daylight and didn't finish the 100 shots.. The rules stated that the 100 shots must be done in one day. Hayes, the wily old veteran, figured out that he wouldn't have time to finish and gracefully retired to "soothe the feelings of fellow riflemen" over the scope controversy. Dorrler, who was animately against scopes being used, had shot a few targets when someone made a wisecrack and he flew off the handle and went home. Sounds familiar to some of today's competitions?

Shooters were allowed to foul their rifles and there was a sight-in area away from the shooting house...but when you stepped to the window it was for all the marbles. Once the warner punched your ticket that was it. Oh...if you or anyone else talked to the warner while he was doing his job...you were off the range. These rules may seem strict but remember, the money that some of these boys were shooting for, or represented backers for, would have bought a comfortable house in those days. This was serious shootin'. 

There's no record that can't be broken if one is willing to put in the time it takes to practice and keep his head in the right place...it's just now-a-days most folks can't justify that sort of dedication given their other responsibilities. It was the same back then...there was far and away the biggest portion of competitors who shot a good score and had a good time. Like Farrow said, " The really proficient offhand shot will most always find himself in a class by himself."

We shoot our Election Day match in Cody under the old rules and have enjoyed increased participation every year. Shooters like to compete under the same restrictions as the old-timers to see if they measure up. I think the future of our sport lies in upholding those rules and records...not "dumbing down" Schuetzen to the point of where it is not a real competition any longer. Just my opinion but I have always enjoyed shooting for money.

The best match is were there are enough prizes for everyone to win something...and good shooters are rewarded for their efforts. Average shooters need to be in matches with top shooters to compare notes. When you put too much luck into a match to make it "fair" you turn away the serious shooters. At the same time average shooters need to be encouraged. This is where the Schuetzen medals are so important.

I'm afraid I've written too much...and speaking of matches, I've got to get ready for the next Schuetzen match in Montana. 

Hold Center,

Steve Garbe
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #6 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 8:48am
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Steve,

Not too much at all. I enjoyed all of it.  I would sure like to make the trip out your way for one of the Cody matches.

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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #7 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 9:29am
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Steve, when you read this let the group know how many shooters can be handled at Cody. Thanks
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #8 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 9:29am
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Steve,

  Thanks for the clarification of some of the points on the '03 Election Day match. I was going on memory of some of the general rules for matches of the day and not this particular one.

  I have to laugh at your comments on shooters of old weren't any different than todays shooters when it comes to what it takes to "set them off".

  On the money end of it..... It has always surprised me the amount of money that the shooters could win, plus the number of prizes awarded. It would be a pretty good chunk of change even today. You could win a prize for first center of the day, the last of the day, the closest to center, and the most centers, just to give an example.

  I totally agree with your viewpoint that Schuetzen shooting today is pretty well "dumbed" down. Actually I don't really call it Schuetzen shooting in my mind since most of it today is shot off the bench. As far as I can tell in an actual Schuetzen match there were no bench matches. But, I also realise that many/most are physically unable to shoot offhand so I don't make a big fuss about it.

  Been meaning to email you with a few questions on your WSU that you covered in your last issue of BPCN. I see you mention that any club is welcome to join in shooting under your rules. I was wondering if you could clarify this a little? Doesn't seem to be any membership involved..... just shoot under your rules if you want. Where would a guy get targets? Was also wondering about individual members joining in with maybe a possibility of a Postal Match for those not affiliated with any club?

PETE
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #9 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 4:19pm
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You had some pithy though quite correct observations regarding the present state of our kind of shooting. "Dumbed down" is pretty harsh but we get the drift. We all have a duty to preserve the level of qualtity sport that we are guardians of. When I drive by a shooting facility and see a bunch of adults with quasi Ninja Swat Team Special Forces Ranger costumes and them banging away with race guns, my thoughts go to turning the fire hoses on their arses! I'm sitting here looking a the back inside cover of John Dutcher's fine book on the Ballard rifle. The inside cover is a group photo entitled "Eighteenth Biennial Rifle Tournament, Davenport, Iowa, 1931. There are 54 men in the photograph, all sitting with their rifles. Nine of these men appear to be at least 70 years old. Many in their late forties and early fifties. I'm sure they enjoyed the fellowship, stood up and did their best. and did it in the manner that made "Schuetzen" a premier shooting sport. We should not do less. Though I misplaced the name guide to the photo I recall that the second shooter seated from the left was famous Chis Westergaard. He and the forth shooter seated from the right have rifles equiped with adjustable buttplates!
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #10 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 7:44pm
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I participated in the Wyoming Schuetzen Match a couple of weeks ago.  With the new WSU rules I was a bit apprehensive.  Having been used to sighter targets when shooting for record, I didn't know how much limitation that would create for shooting well.

First of all, Steve Garbe and his group have designed a new target that has scoring rings down to "1".  The target paper is quite a bit larger that the regular ASSRA target but the scoring ring size is the same.  Also, the red part of the bull is a deep red, which makes it easier to see with iron sights.  Steve said the target mimicks what was shot in 1903.

Everyone had  a ten minute sight-in period before the match.  Then time was called, targets were checked, and we were allowed 20 rounds total on the bench for two targets.  I didn't really think not having a sighter target was much of a deterrent to shooting well.  It is just a different way of shooting a match.

I want to add that it was one of the best run matches I have attended.  Schuetzenmeister Keith Kilby said he didn't shoot the match because he thought there would be too many interruptions from shooters with problems, but it just didn't happen.

The big obstacle in the match was the wind.  It seems the wind always blows at Cody.  This match was no exception.  Light winds prevailed early in the morning, but by 10:00 the winds picked up noticeably.  By afternoon we usually had 15 to 25 mph winds.  One day Steve Garbe  had a velocity indicator on a tripod with a 25lb lead weight leaned against one of the legs.  The wind blew it over.  Now, that is wind!

I've competed in the Hudson match several times over the years and I can say from experience that you must have very good conditions to shoot a top level 100 shot offhand match.  The mental concentration  and physical endurance required will sap most men's energy by itself, let alone having to deal with switching, tricky wind conditions.  Add in the requirement that all 100 shots be fired in one day and you have eliminated most shooters from doing well.

It is possible that an Olympic caliber shooter could surpass Hudson' record, but I think it highly unlikely that they would even try for it.

Let's talk reality here.  The average age of the Schuetzen shooters today is 60+ and that may be conservative.  What Steve Garbe and Dick Norton are trying to do is create more interest in our game.  I applaud that, but let's not set the bar so high that it is out of the reach of the shooters in the sport now. 

Jim Luke 

  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #11 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 9:03pm
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Jim I agree that the 2301 in next to impossible to best. And over the years I've been around Olympic and International class shooters and they are not going to do it either, unless they had perfect conditions, had trained and trained and trained. You have shot more scores over 2300 than any shooter. You know the barriers. Perhaps an approach would be to leave the 10K prize out there but offer somewhat lesser amounts for certain levels. I believe Hays, and this identity is a guess, shot a 2172 on the schuetzen target with a rifle meeting NRA specs, 10lbs, 3 lb trigger. (about 1885) At that time the highest score I read of was a 2211 with schuetzen type rifle. Let's consider that 2200 barrier as one that's approachable but surely tough. Maybe $1,000.00 for the first shooter under traditional rules to best it. Would be interesting. Please keep comments and suggestions coming in. I do think that a PR combination of money, history, and challenge would bring new folks into the sport. How many new faces since the heyday of the Coors shoots?
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #12 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 9:38pm
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Re: money shoots. 
If you look at the overall historical context of those big cash prizes and the even bigger side bets you soon realize that in the heyday of exhibition shooting it was probably THE biggest money sport. If you factor in relative purchsing power and inflation rates their winnings would still be huge.   Top exhibition shooters were the MIchael Jordans, Sammy Sosa's and Muhammed Alis of their era.  Perhaps the singer Jenny Lind might have approached them in national exposure.  Horse (harness) racing might have been its main competition.  Prize fighting was the other big one of th era but the prizes were not as big. With no radio or TV coverage only print media was available and exhibition shooting was well suited to the slower pace reportage.
The big spectator TV- income-bloated sports of the modern era were either fledglings--ie professional baseball, or amateur collegiate sports--football and basketball.
The rifleman still an integral part of the American self image.  He was respected for his skilll and accuracy, not for the quantity of lead he poured down range
  

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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #13 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 9:44pm
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Dick, I'm enjoying this subject of Dr. Hudson!  It gets tiresome reading about bullets, loads, etc.  Offhand shooting is my favorite part of the sport.

I think Ballard, CPA, and the other rifle manufacturers would love it if we had a traditional match for 10 lb rifles with 3 lb trigger pulls.   Think of the rifles they could sell.  Personally, I'm not interested in them.

Let the guys shoot what they have now.  I don't have any real concrete suggestions for money prizes.  Maybe  a $1,000 prize for the person who can shoot a 2250 in a match --iron sights offhand.  That is within reach.  My main point is we need to make the prize attainable.  Dr. Hudson's score was something of a fluke as you mentioned in an email earlier.  He never equaled that score again that I know of.  The longer I think about it, the more I'm in awe of the man and his abilities.  They didn't call him the human benchrest for nothing.

If I had the time, I would like to practice offhand irons everyday for a while just to see how good I could get.  But, I simply don't have the time.

Jim Luke
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #14 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 10:13pm
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Agreed, the goal has to be attainable. 2250 for irons is still very high. 2225 is really toudh. Very few times at the Coors shoot did anyone average 220 irons offhand. I think Chuck Blender did it.  I just don't have the ref. material to see if any scores like that were shot during the Golden Period, the exception being Hudson's. Leadball's proposal for a prize to best the Rowland group makes  alot of sense. We have many highly skilled bench shooters who could make a run for it. Most folks just shoot 5 shot groups. I want to make one thing clear about my position on offhand shooting. A number of my fellow shooters have serious physical problems. Chronic problems which will never get better. No one thinks less of them because they cannot stand and shoot all day.( I had a major hip problem last summer which affected my performance. The lously drugs just barely controlled the pain and they didn't even make you high, just made you feel punk.) But with a new hip I hope this year will be better. I will try my best. But you fellows who are physically capable of shooting offhand and use phrases such as "shoot my awful hand" are really selling yourselves short. Work on it! If nothing else you will feel better about yourself because you were in the hunt to the best of your ability. Nobody asks more of you. But let's get some money on the line and go after that Rowland record. That Fairfax Virgina range has about the best conditions I've ever seen, at time looking through the spotting scopes they insects are just circling. That's the spot to make records. That's where the late Buddy Street shot those tiny rimfire groups with his Dorn Ballard. And I sure hope the various clubs when they submit scores give a little information about the shoot, maybe a few pictures. I'm sorry to keep refering to the old "Rifle" magazine but the assorted clubs had a membership I think less than ASSRA. I base this on their votes regarding accepting a standard target design. Let's give that editor some "color" along with the scores.
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #15 - Apr 13th, 2005 at 11:20pm
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Dick, you and leadball may have something.  A 10 shot bench match  for group size to beat Rowland"s record would bring more participation than an offhand match. A lot more!

Jim Luke
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #16 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 12:50am
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Pete,
Club affiliation with the WSU is simple...20 bucks buys a subscription to the NEWS that contains "The Center Shot" which reports on matches, records, and new information particular to the WSU. This sub is sent to the club's Schuetzenmeister. The club (or any individual) can buy targets...call me at 307-587-7609. Affiliated clubs can also buy medals and bars from the WSU and we are keeping a set of records that have been shot under the WSU rules.

We are not doing individual memberships...for two reasons. One, I think it would be "trespassing" too much on the two already established Schuetzen organizations and as I said in the NEWS article the purpose of the WSU is to promote Schuetzen shooting, not steal thunder away from the ASSRA or the ISSA.

Two, witness what is going on in the ASSRA at this very moment. I'm not taking any sides in past or current debates, mainly because I don't know all sides of the issues. My point is this...the WSU is run by a small group of charter members who are all believers in that most efficient form of government...the benevolent dictatorship. If we accepted individual outside members (and their money) things would soon become complicated. That may change in the future, but for right now we are a group of shooters interested in promoting Schuetzen and rest shooting. Club affiliation simply lets a club shoot under WSU rules when they choose to, and have those results recorded. I see no reason why the ASSRA couldn't affiliate with the WSU. It would benefit both organizations. 

I would really like to see an old-time "telegraph match" between the WSU and the ASSRA...and our Fall Election Day match in October would be the perfect time. I think it would also gin up some interest...with the proper prize money...to interest the usual collection of sharks. (Cool Hand, are you reading this?) Jack Odor and I have been talking about this for several years now and I think that the Western offhand enthusiasts versus the Eastern enthusiasts would generate some healthy rivalry...not to mention providing some interesting text for the Journal. 

Before anyone asks...the WSU does not do BPCR Silhouette, buffalo matches, gong matches, Long range, mid-range, .22 silhouette, black powder trap or skeet, cowboy action, or windows. We are focused on Schuetzen offhand shooting and bench rest shooting...which fills our plate up quite nicely. We are not being "exclusive"...we are just realizing our limitations.

We are working on getting more benches at the Cody range. Right now we have 18 firing points...36 shooters divided up on two relays works well in the Spring. Later on, we can handle three relays. The Cody Club has plans for 30 more benches but I don't think this will happen till at least Fall. The Cody Shooting Complex is a great gun club but it has it's usual bureaucracy whose wheels turn slowly.

We would sure like to see a contingent of ASSRA shooters at next years's WSU Schuetzenfest...and I'm working on some Western shooters to make the trip to Etna Green.

Steve Garbe
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #17 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 7:34am
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Steve,

  Thanks for the reply. I won't go over everything in your message but would like to touch on the individual membership if you don't mind.

  I do belong to a Schuetzen club but the officers in their infinite wisdom, over the objection of many/most of the members, will not affiliate with any SS organization. There might be other clubs whose members are in the same boat.

  Also, I would not hesitate to say that the majority of the shooters who will read this thread don't belong to any club at all. That would leave the vast majority of SS shooters no opportunity to partake in your matches. The only way I would have of comparing myself in a match with other ASSRA, ISSA, or WSU shooters would be thru postal matches.

  Personally I like your target and I like your rules, especially the separation of the traditonal and modern(?) shooters.

  Maybe if I can get some targets from you I'll just shoot your Election Day match (on the day specified) by myself just so I can see how I compare with you guys. I can think of a coupla other guys I can probably drag in too.  Smiley

PETE
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #18 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 7:48am
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  I really like the idea of the matches Dick & Jim are advocating, but I do have a few questions......

  Who's going to be running the match & guaranteeing the $1,000 or $10,000 money to the winner?

  What will be the entrance fee?

  As Joeb mentions in another message who's going to verify that the targets were shot legally? Even back in the old days they had what was called the "Johnstown Dodge", which pretty well covers what Joe mentions. This is why the really important matches had target Markers and Warners, and if your gun went off the result was marked as your shot. Hit or miss!

  As Steve mentions in another message, the old time shoots were set up so that just about everybody won something for their efforts. From his talk it seems the WSU will be doing the same thing. From the talk here this doesn't seem to be the case, so if there is an entrance fee what incentive do I have to shoot this match when I know I will stand little, or no chance of winning?

  As I say, I hate to bring all this up but if it isn't addressed all we're doing is blowing smoke and nothing will ever come of it.

PETE
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #19 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 8:30am
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I have been folowing this thread and I have a couple of Ideas. 
Match funding How about the match shooters funding the prize. Set a match fee of the target price plus $25.00 that would go in the pot. it won't take long for the prize to grow and the more money in the pot the more compitition for the prize. This match won't be won at the first try. The match would have to be shot during a club sponsered event on the correct target with witnesses under the rules that Steve sets up.
As to the east-west team match I think this is a great Idea. Both teams could pick a day and shoot the match at their respective clubs. Then share targets and scores over the internet. This is the kind of event that could draw interest to the sport from outside the Schuetzen comunity. Hopefully this would attract new shooters to our sport.
As to Mr. Welch's claim in the Roland record. As I understand the story it was shot without witnesses. Mr. Welch's ethical lapses of the past cast serious doubt on the event. 

40 Rod
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #20 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 11:48am
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  For those of you with access to the Nov. 26, 1903 issue of Shooting & Fishing, or the May-June 1989 issue of the ASSRA Journal, there is a good picture of the rifle that Hudson used in his 1903 record score.

  One thing of note...... Hudson shot his record with a duplex load of 5 grs. duPont #1 smokeless and the rest of the shell loaded with Fg Semi-Smokeless (black). Will this mean that those wishing to see if they can break the record will have to refrain from using a full charge of smokeless?

  On another note Hudsons record was broken by Jim Feren in 1987 at a match at the Modesto Rifle Club with a score of 2319-16c. But he used smokeless powder and a scope. So probably not "legal" in the spirit of trying to duplicate Hudson's record.

PETE


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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #21 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 4:29pm
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40 Rod, I agee that all participants get something, even a small medallion showing they participated. Last weekend I shot in the Arizona State Muzzleloading Championships. Each competitor, and there was over 60, received just for showing up 1lb of black powder. (50 lbs was donated)Then based on the scores each competitor chose from a table of merchandise. They stuff was abundant and of good quality. Agg. winners, match winners, received the usual plaques. But it was a well-run fun event and folks enjoyed getting a little something back
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #22 - Apr 15th, 2005 at 5:52am
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Hi,

Just a few observations from a newcomer to Schuetzen-style shooting, in fact my ONLY match so far has been the one at Cody, Wyoming at the beginning of the month.

Humans are, by their very nature, competitive and I for one would not have taken up shooting if it didn’t present a challenge.  However, as several of you have said, the goal needs to be attainable.

How about taking the highest offhand score set last year under whatever conditions are deemed appropriate then up that by a set amount (rather like raising the bar in the high jump) to make it a real challenge.  Award a prize to the first person to beat it then raise the bar again.  This might lead people towards a new record without making it exceptionally difficult in the first place.

With regard to sighters and the size of targets, I agree with Jim Luke that the fixed sight-in period and only firing a fixed number of shots worked well and I feel it gives a truer measure of a shooters ability.  Here in England at Bisley, all matches allow only a fixed number of sighting shots (usually between 2 and 5, although they are frequently convertible) before shooting for score and any misses are misses.  As a complete newcomer, I felt that this, combined with their new target with scoring rings going out to 10 rather than 15 as on targets I had seen previously, presented a real challenge.

It would seem that getting younger people into the sport is a problem in the USA so I was very pleased to see youngsters like Nolan Kearns and Cordell Betters taking part in the match.  It is also a problem in England and when I was at a pistol competition in Germany a few years ago, the secretary of the Club there told me that the “membership numbers stay the same but the average age get higher”.  Anything we can do to attract new people into the sport (and keep their interest) gets my vote.

Hope this hasn’t strayed too far off topic.  Best wishes to all the people I met in Cody, I really enjoyed my first competition and it definitely won’t be my last,

Pete Luton

  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #23 - Apr 15th, 2005 at 10:08am
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Pluton, glad to read your input on this topic.  I think you have a splendid idea about determining the score for the 100 shot Hudson match with iron sights.

A fifty shot version of this match is fired every year at the ISSA matches in Raton.  The high score to date is Earl Hines' 1117.  Take this times two and you have 2234.  Having shot this match several times, I feel breaking 2200 would be quite an accomplishment.  That's averaging 22 points per shot.  That's not extremely high, but you sure couldn't have too many wide shots and still achieve that score.

Hopefully, Dick Norton and Steve Grabe will have something to say about your ideas.

This Hudson Match topic has generated a lot of talk on this web site.  Hopefully, that will lead to a real match in the future.

Coolhd
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #24 - Apr 16th, 2005 at 12:26am
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I've been a SSR enthusiast for a long time, but I've never shot in any kind of competitive match.  So I have some observations and some questions.  The first observation is that a 100 shot score is not twice a 50-shot match score.  I've never done it, but I'd wager that the first 10 shots are a lot closer to the center than the last 10 shots.  Us mortals get tired.  'Specially those of us in the age bracket where SS rings the social security bell before it rings the SSR bell.  BAck when we were all in a flap about statistics, somebody posted a bit about analyzing the scores for a 100 shot match.  Shot offhand with a .22, IIRC.  But if that person still has the data, it would be informative to look back & see if the average score for the preceeding 5 shots changed over time.  Whether the rifle is a .22 or a .32-40, lifting it to your shoulder 100 times takes about the same amount of effort.

Second, there seems to be a bit of confusion on my part about rifle specs.  I assume that back in 1903, Dr. H was shooting a Schuetzen rifle, a heavy one set up for offhand and one with a DST.  If we have an offhand match for 10 lb. rifles with 3 lb. trigger pulls, it needs to be called something else.  Creedmore offhand, maybe.

3rd, I assume that Dr. Hudson needed to clean his rifle once in a while.  Is/was that within the rules?

4th, please explain about the rules for coats, etc. & shoes.  As a former forester from out west, if I was to enter a Hudson match, I'd grease up my White's custom-made loggers boots with undershot high heels and 14" lace up tops and wear those with some comfy new socks.  Would that make me ineligible?  Is there some sort of dress code?  Do I need a necktie?

5th, I think I'll try this, maybe tomorrow.  But the only rifle I have that will reliably shoot 100 rounds without weeks of special bullet casting is my Ballard gallery .22.  Is there a .22 version of the Hudson match?  If so, at what range?  I'll try 100-yard smallbore targets at 100 yards for starters.
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #25 - Apr 16th, 2005 at 8:27am
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Waterman,

  You're absolutely right about the fatique factor entering into a 100 shot match. There aren't to many of us that are in good enuf shape to shoot a match that long and not be tired. Especially if you're shooting a 12 lb. rifle. In fact the next day there are usually complaints about how sore everyone is! Having shot in several of those matches tho..... and I'm 65...... what I've found is that your scores for the individual targets goes up and down in a manner that would look like a wave pattern if graphed out. The last score is not necessarily your worst either.

  Your mention of shooting the .22 reminded me of an article in an old Journal. Seems this author was showing how at least several modern day shooters had regularly beaten Hudsons record. What got me shaking my head about that was the fact that they had done it with .22 rifles and shot those scores at 100 yds. Where's the fatique factor and the increase in shooting error with distance? As far as I could see the whole article was worthless....... and yet it was repeated a coupla years later as tho this was important news!

  You're also right about the rifle Hudson used to make his record. It was a .32/40 Ballard. From the picture of it, it appears to be a Union Hill #8 with a Schuetzen buttplate and DST. About the only difference between it and most Schuetzen rifles of the era was that, altho not a rare feature, Hudson attached a cork pad on the forend just in front of the frame, rather than using a palm rest. A 10 pd. wgt. limit and 3 pd. trigger pull would be the requirement of the NRA matches of that era, and were meant to simulate the military rifles of the era. In Schuetzen shooting of the period if you could hold it up in the offhand position you could shoot it. Altho the average was about 12 pds., some used guns weighing up around 16 pds. and more Set triggers were the norm, and as long as they were safe there was no problem.

  Hudson used a duplex load for his record, so as far as I can recall I haven't read whether he cleaned his rifle between shots or not. One fact that might have said he didn't was that he used the muzzleloading method which reduced the need for cleaning. But, since BP was still being used by many shooters they were allowed to wipe the bores out between shots. In fact many shooters were very religious about it being very careful to wipe exactly the same for every shot.

  Clothing rules..... This is gonna get ticklish in the future. It will depend on whether you're shooting under ASSRA, or WSU rules. The ASSRA is more liberal in letting you use a shooting coat, while the WSU forbids it, if I read their rules right. Shoes? I don't recall whether anybody has a rule about those. And. No you don't have to wear a neck tie if you don't want to, altho some will, and also wear a shooters apron and bowler hat. In fact I'm kinda looking for the latter now!  Grin

  .22 Hudson match?...... Again ASSRA and WSU might look at this cal. differently. The ASSRA does have such a match, but not sure about the WSU. Our club doesn't shoot a 100 shot .22 match but we do have several different 10 shot matches (bench & offhand) and they are shot at 100 yds. using the 100 yd. German ring target. You can use the 100 yd. Small Bore Rifle target if you'd like but it's quite a bit larger. If you use it then make up an overlay with a 3/4" 25 ring and add an additional 3/8" to the radius of each suceeding ring to get an idea of how you'd do in an actual match. If you end up with a score over 200 per ten shots you're doing doing better than most. Let us know how you came out.

PETE
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #26 - Apr 16th, 2005 at 11:45am
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I'm going to find out about that fatique factor next week as we are having a 100 shot one day at Phoenix.

It is up to the individual shooter  to maintain a level of fitness that fulfills and suits their lifestyle. It's the individuals choice. We cannot overcome many elements of "wear and tear" but we can compensate by conditioning everythng else. No one has to really decay that much. From what I'm reading, and from what I see at fitness centers, it is established that males can increase muscle mass and strength at up to 90 years of age! I was watching a guy yesterday who was about 80. His workout was impressive as was his appearance. And he was a very upbeat person. A couple of days ago I was looking a pictures of folks in the Smokey Mountain area circa 1920. Some were very leathery. But they stood erect and looked very fit. They didn't sit in front of the boob tube watching men run up and down a court or field with an inflated animal skin. I'm 70 and am experiencing a loss of "touch". But you keep in shape and shoot your best. Well-known shooter Chuck Blender, and I wish he would do an article on his training methods, notes that shooting is very muscle specific. He suggests holding the rifle in the offhand position and do knee bends. Chuck also said that he mounted a block of wood on a door frame and pushed up against that  with his rifle. A static exercise.  Just picking up and dry firing 30 minutes or more a day should keep the shooting system in decent shape. From a metabolic standpoint it makes more sense to eat small snacks on a continual basis during a long event. Keeps the blood sugar level up. Plan ahead. When I was doing much distance running the accepted theory was to really eat a heavy meal of complex carbs the night before a race. That is stored energy. The challenge for all of us older shooters is to simply get off  our butts and do our best.

Dick
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #27 - Apr 16th, 2005 at 4:07pm
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Dick,

  I couldn't agree more. I work out four days a week. Two days on the wgt.'s for upper body strength and endurance, and four days on aerobics for endurance. As a result tho my shooting suffered terribly during our Winter indoor shooting, but I'm trying to look at the long term benefits this Summer as I get to the point where what I'm doing doesn't wear me out completely for the day.

  As you mention, it would be nice if someone who knows what specific exercises would benefit us as shooters would post something. Mostly what I'm doing is to strengthen up a pair of legs that got bunged up pretty badly a year ago. Those are pretty well under control now so switching over to something that would be more specific to our sport would be nice to know. Your points on what Chuck Blender does are good and will be good to look at. Never thought of the deep knee bends while holding your rifle up (one of my weak points), but I have read that the knees are one of the first things to go in your muscle and bone structure so anything to keep them in shape would certainly be a help.

  I have to laugh when you mention people can improve their physical conditioning up to a very advanced age. So true! As I mentioned before I'm 65. When I started on my wgt. schedule I admittedly started out light at about 3000 pds. per 7 station workout. But I've worked that up to 8100 pds. now and am scheduling another 200 pds. for the first of the week. My goal is to get up to 10,000 pds. and then keep it there.

  The best thing, of course, would be to shoot a coupla hours a day, but not many have the time or can afford the expense so doing some wgt. and aerobic training is the next best thing in my opinion.

Now if I can just knock off the 20 pds. the doc thinks I ought to.  Grin

PETE
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #28 - Apr 17th, 2005 at 2:28pm
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After a somewhat disappointing practice session this am, it has finally dawned on me that proper rest prior to a match is important. Yesterday I did a very long high intensity workout on a cross trainer followed by leg and lower back work. I was just tired this morning and a bit subpar. Consider that a baseball pitcher, a starter, only works every fourth or fifth day. Maybe those pitching coaches are on to something! Probably good to avoid workouts a couple of days prior to a shoot.

Dick
  
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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #29 - Apr 17th, 2005 at 6:12pm
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Dick, you are correct about the conditioning routine.  I have found it best to halt my exercise program 3 or 4 days before a match.  Then I'm usually at full strength come match day.  Olympic training manuals recommend the same type of schedule.

Although we stand still--or try to--in offhand shooting, the physical toll of picking up the rifle at least 100 times and putting it down an equal number is fatiguing.  Think about it.  If the rifle weighs 16lbs as mine does, then you have lifted a minimum of 1600 lbs for a 100 shot match.  So we need all the energy we can muster during the competition.

Good luck at Phoenix!  Wish I could be there.

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Re: Rules Dr Hudson shot under
Reply #30 - Apr 18th, 2005 at 9:29am
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Everyone is different but Tell you the truith I have not notced scores on individual targets latter in a Hudson match to be lower than the first targets.  Remember we do generaly have 2 days to shoot the match althought I almost always try to finish it in one day.

Most Clubs run relays about 45 minutes and I like to get off 2 record targets per relay.  With a couple of Re-entry targets first to make sure all is working well and some time spent with sighters, and some time in my pocket in cast of unforseen delays I take 8 relays or a full day to shoot my Hudson. I never break for lunch and just drink some water and eat a few peanuts , raisins or something small all day.

I not so sure in my case taking both days would make for higher scores. I tend to get into a grove and anything that breaks the pace will result is lower scores until I get back going.

My lowest scores are almost always after a break or lapse in concetration.  What kills me is if I get into some distracting conversation or discussion during the target change or cold line in a match. I know it looks sort of unsocable but I like to keep my earmuffs on between relays.

Sometimes when I shoot Smallbore Silouette (and after checking with the match directior to make sure he does not object) I will keep a Diskman in the pocket of my shooting vest and listen to CD's while shooting.  To me it helps, although have never tried it in Schuetzen.  What you would not want to do is depend on it and have it ruled out just before a match.

Once in the Small bore Silouette Nationals I had a unplesant exchange with a scorer during a relay.  I had a habit of lifting the bolt and dry firing a couple of times after a miss  just to get my grove back.  The scorer accused me of cheating. The magazine only held 5 rounds and I only fired 5 but did lift and break more than 5 with the dry fires.  In any event it cost me a couple of animals due to blood preassure rising. I gave the pratice up after even though I still think it helps.

Anyway thats long enough for a  Monday, Would sure like to shoot the WSU Hudson.

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