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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Stevens-Pope Ballard (Read 15324 times)
blackpowdermax
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Stevens-Pope Ballard
Apr 26th, 2006 at 10:36pm
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Not mine (sob!!!), but could use some info for the real owner.  Any info would be helpful, all I have is the info from the J. Dutcher book and the James Grant books.  It is missing part of the original palm rest and the aperture for the Pope tang sight.  Caliber believed to be 32-40.  Any history, insights, etc. as well as a value would be appreciated.  For those of you that just started drooling, it is not for sale (sob!!!).  If you have those missing parts, sure would be nice to put it back to original.

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By the way, the bore is excellent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

max
  

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MP
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #1 - Apr 27th, 2006 at 12:21am
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The missing parts can be easily made by any single-shot gunsmith.  What is the barrel number and was (is) there a false-muzzle?  Great looking outfit and looks to be cut for a Pope scope mount on the receiver, not sure I have seen this before.  

The majority of the value of a Pope rifle lays in the condition of the bore, if anything less than perfect the value decreases, fast.  If the rifle was made for a false-muzzle and that’s missing that also affects the value.

The Ballard looks like it was completely redone by Stevens, palm-rest base, case color and even the stock looks like Stevens work.
« Last Edit: Apr 27th, 2006 at 11:58am by »  
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plumber
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #2 - Apr 27th, 2006 at 9:12pm
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HI guys and gals I own the Ballard in Question . MAX has been very kind as to start me off with this. Yes barrel was fitted for a false muzzel and Did not make it to me with gun . also I feel the bore to be in very great shape. There is not a mark or number anywhere on barrel .barrel is also milled as well as the action for scope . I feel the bore to be right hand. The double set triggers work very fine . The gun has been on a mans wall for about 50 + years .  Thought I would share this with the people who care about craftsmanship and quality.
                                           THANKS PLUMBER
  
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MP
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #3 - Apr 27th, 2006 at 10:26pm
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Nice Rifle!
Do I understand you correctly that the barrel says Stevens-Pope on the top of the barrel but nothing on the underside?  If its right hand twist and no number then may be made after Pope left Stevens. Is there a screw in the bottom of the forward part (through the serial number) of the action that goes into the barrel? I advise you start shooting it and report how it goes. MP
  
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plumber
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #4 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 7:48am
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There is no name no number anywhere.  As for the screw  I do not think so I will check when I get home .

                                      THANKS PLUMBER
  
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MP
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #5 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 9:50am
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I guess my next question would be why are we calling the rifle a Stevens-Pope?
  
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plumber
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #6 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 10:51am
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You are  correct I call it a Marlin ballard might have been redone at the Stevens factory , with Pope style trim.

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chrisj
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #7 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 11:41am
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I’ll generalize the question.

In the results of the 1906 Central Sharpshooters Union 100 shot match in Davenport, (generously provided to me by Pete) two of the equipment listings are as follows:

Emil Berg Stevens-Pope-Ballard muzzleloader Kings semi smokeless, telescope.

Thomas Malana Stevens-Pope-Ballard breechloader, FG Hazard, peep and aperture sights.

Of course the powder and type of sights are easy to pick out, but how to read the “Stevens-Pope-Ballard”  is there significance to the order?  Is it for example action-barrel-sights?


Chris Jens
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plumber
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #8 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 11:58am
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  CHRIS
     SORRY but I am lost with your post

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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #9 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 12:08pm
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purely guessing, but I suspect they were Stevens-Pope barrels on Ballard actions.   Whether actually by pope when he was there or not would be a matter for the real Pope scholars in the group.
  

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Green_Frog
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #10 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 12:53pm
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Chris, 

     Based on the timing of when various parts were available, I would say that the "Stevens-Pope-Ballard" reference would be barrel (made by Stevens under Pope's direct supervision or by his methods after he left them) and placed on a Ballard action.  I have also seen references to "Pope-Stevens-whatevers" to indicate that he actually did the work while at Stevens.

HTH, Froggie
  
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plumber
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #11 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 12:59pm
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    GOTCHA THANKS PLUMBER
  
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MP
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #12 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 1:55pm
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Stevens-Pope barrels made when Pope was there and after he left are marked “Stevens-Pope” and numbered.  If the rifling is right-hand to boot then we have an unknown-Ballard until more information in known.  Even barrels by makers such as Winchester, Marlin and Remington are marked by Stevens when they are re-rifled. I have two questions, is there a name just in back of the pistol grip on the stock, might be tiny letters and anything written under the buttplate?
  
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plumber
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #13 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 3:04pm
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  I do not see any name . I removed buttplate on it is 116 on buttstock is also 116 the last three numbers on the action is 116.I feel the forearm is Stevens . there is a extra tiny screw hole that is not used with this forearm. Might of had a different forearm at one time . TELL me if I look into breech end looks like 8 lands and 9 grooves make sence turning clockwise away from me
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chrisj
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #14 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 3:04pm
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The realization that "Stevens-Pope" is one entity, not two, clears it up for me.

Thanks

Chris Jens
  
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plumber
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #15 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 3:27pm
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PLEASE see my last post also could there be a name  number under the front sight on the flat or on the back of action ? thoes are the only two places I havent looked Should I bother ?

     PLUMBER
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #16 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 4:07pm
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Plumber,

     I think you have made it abundantly clear to all who are actually reading the whole thread that the barrel is unmarked.  I would tend to discount its being a Pope-made or Stevens-installed barrel as they were usually well marked at time of building.  Lots of people made high quality target rifles based on the very popular Marlin Ballard action.  We can safely say that your example is one of those and that it probably dates from the "Golden Age" of single shots around the "gay nineties" or right after the turn of the last century.  That lever is definitely in the style used by Pope, but he said he copied it from an older design used on European rifles of the percussion age.  I've seen some such in Central Europe.

     Whatever else you can track down will be pure gravy on what is already a choice piece of ordnance.  If it were mine, I would slug the bbl, measure the twist (regardless of direction  Roll Eyes ) and have one of the current mould makers make up a mould for a  Pope style bullet of appropriate dimensions then enjoy shooting what is obiously a fine rifle!  Congratulations.

Froggie

PS to Chris:  I assume you caught on to the need in the listing to distinguish between the muzzle loading and breech seating versions of the competitors' rifles.  I'm guessing that some owner of Plumber's rifle probably adapted his style to the latter (and later) technique and lost or discarded the false muzzle...more's the pity!  Cry
  
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MP
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #17 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 5:39pm
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I’m not sure there is more I can offer and I’m about out of ideas, most of the folks who could make a barrel with a false-muzzle marked their work.  The case color looks like Stevens work to me, Niedner did very similar color but he marked everything he got his hands on.  Someone may recognize the rifling if they had in their hand but hard to do long-distance.  Regardless of who did the work it a swell looking rifle and needs to be shot. Like I said in my first post the missing parts (not the false-muzzle) are no big deal and easily fixed.  Good luck and good shooting.
  
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #18 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 5:52pm
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Another thought, if the bottom of the pistol grip is checkered write me at mjpetrov@acsalaska.net.
« Last Edit: Apr 29th, 2006 at 1:58am by »  
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marlinguy
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #19 - Apr 28th, 2006 at 6:53pm
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I've seen several makes of singleshot rifle that were rebarreled or rebored and rifled by Stevens. Some were simply Stevens barrels fitted to the guns, and marked with the std. Stevens rollstamp. Others were marked "Stevens-Pope" just like the Stevens-Pope models made by Stevens. Barrels rebore or re-rifled by Stevens were so marked to indicate that Stevens did a rebore or re-rifle.
That's a beautiful rifle, and regardless of who did the barrel or stock work, I'd enjoy it. It does have several unique features that would tend to indicate Stevens touches on it. It's possible it was a barreled action sent to Stevens for case coloring, stock work and fitting of the lever. That might explain why it has these Stevens style features, but not any markings.
  
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winplumber
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #20 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 6:12pm
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Well guys Im back ! I still have this rifle and haven't done much with it I would like to find the correct Pope style scope mounts and a vintage palm rest any help would be great. I know its been a long time my computer world has came back  GLAD TO BE HERE !
  
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Redsetter
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #21 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 6:23pm
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winplumber wrote on Feb 25th, 2018 at 6:12pm:
...I would like to find the correct Pope style scope mounts


Do you believe in miracles?

Sorry to say, they are incredibly rare, and have never been reproduced, except for a handful made many yrs ago by Mike Stevens, now deceased.
  
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winplumber
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #22 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 6:26pm
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Cant hurt to try  !
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #23 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 9:26pm
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winplumber wrote on Feb 25th, 2018 at 6:12pm:
Well guys Im back ! I still have this rifle and haven't done much with it I would like to find the correct Pope style scope mounts and a vintage palm rest any help would be great. I know its been a long time my computer world has came back  GLAD TO BE HERE !


Beyond being extremely hard to find, they're also extremely expensive when they show up! The last pair of Pope mounts I saw sell at an auction was 20 years ago, and they sold for a whopping $2500!!!
I have a pair on a Stevens scope mounted on my Zettler Bros. Ballard, and mine are mounted in even rarer Pope bases. Pope offered bases, but preferred the owners to send their barrels to him to have his cuts done on the barrel.

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Have you been in contact with Max recently? Last I spoke with him he'd moved to the desert and had no phone or internet connection. Said he could check emails once in awhile by cell phone if conditions were right.
  

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winplumber
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #24 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 9:46pm
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No  contact with Max, How can I tell if I need the Pope bases or the Pope mounts ?
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #25 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 9:51pm
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winplumber wrote on Feb 25th, 2018 at 9:46pm:
No  contact with Max, How can I tell if I need the Pope bases or the Pope mounts ?


I thought you had the Pope cuts in your barrel, and that was why you wanted Pope style mounts? If your barrel doesn't have the two pairs of Pope cuts, then no reason to need Pope mounts.
Not sure if you can make them out, but these are Pope cuts on the barrel of my Schoyen Ballard. On the side right below the scope bases.

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winplumber
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #26 - Feb 25th, 2018 at 9:58pm
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Thank You ! I do have the cuts.You can make the rear cuts out on my  picture of the frame and the other is on the barrel , So rings it is .
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #27 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 11:28am
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I've been told by some people I consider very knowledgeable on things Pope related, that he likely made somewhere in the 50-60 sets of rings total! Most who have a pair have them on a rifle, and nobody would part with a pair without parting with a gun.
But maybe you'll get extremely lucky and find a pair loose from their gun for sale?
  

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winplumber
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #28 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 12:19pm
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Thanks One never knows without trying.
  
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #29 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 1:03pm
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winplumber wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 12:19pm:
Thanks One never knows without trying.


Certainly not; but it might be prudent to formulate a "Plan B."

Actually, if you're prepared to pay the "going rate" of, let's say, somewhere in the 2 Gs range, I should think it would be possible to find a Grade A machinist who'd be willing to fabricate a pair at that price--if not less.  One who possess not only the skills, but has demonstrated an interest in undertaking unusual projects, is the scope-block maker Steve Earle.  Of course, he'd have to be supplied with measurements, or better yet, a pair of originals to replicate.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #30 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 1:36pm
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Since this mount is what Stevens based their scope mount on, I think someone who is a good machinist and welder could rework less expensive early Stevens mounts to make them into a base that would clamp on a Pope barrel. Of course the rear adjustment would be right hand thread and not left hand as Pope's were.
They wouldn't be Pope mounts, but clamped into the barrel cuts they'd serve the purpose and look close at a glance. Probably save a ton of dollars too, although the Stevens mounts might cost $300-$400 to start with.
  

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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #31 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 1:53pm
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marlinguy wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 1:36pm:
Since this mount is what Stevens based their scope mount on, I think someone who is a good machinist and welder could rework less expensive early Stevens mounts to make them into a base that would clamp on a Pope barrel.


True, but Pope-owners (which I'm not!) shouldn't be pikers; let them shell out and save the original Stevens mounts for the many Stevens scopes that have somehow lost their proper mounts. (There's one on ebay right now.)  However, the Stevens mounts would provide a good model for the hypothetical builder to copy, if Pope mounts can't be obtained to use for that purpose. 
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #32 - Feb 26th, 2018 at 2:10pm
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Redsetter wrote on Feb 26th, 2018 at 1:53pm:
True, but Pope-owners (which I'm not!) shouldn't be pikers; let them shell out and save the original Stevens mounts for the many Stevens scopes that have somehow lost their proper mounts.


I'd hardly call anyone a piker for wanting to save several thousand dollars? And since there are many times the number of Stevens mounts vs. Pope, if I wanted mounts for my Pope, I sure wouldn't feel bad about finding a pair and making them work for myself.
Finding a Stevens scope without mounts or Stevens mounts without a scope would both take time. But if I found a pair of mounts loose, I'd consider them fair game for my purposes.
  

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winplumber
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #33 - Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:11pm
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Someone asked me to put a price on this gun I have no idea what this is worth not that its for sale just wondering , I was told that the tang sight is a Pope sight years ago, Any ideas ?
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #34 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 12:20pm
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winplumber wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:11pm:
Someone asked me to put a price on this gun I have no idea what this is worth not that its for sale just wondering , I was told that the tang sight is a Pope sight years ago, Any ideas ?


I absolutely love your Pope Ballard, but couldn't begin to make a guess. The market today is crazy, and I see them going much less than they did a decade ago. Have a couple Pope barreled rifles, and the prices a decade or two ago told me I'd never own one. But both of mine were stupid cheap and I can't say why anymore than I could guess what yours would sell for.
Maybe more pictures of your Ballard, plus any information on whatever tools and accessories accompany the gun, might help someone make a guesstimate?
  

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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #35 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 5:30pm
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marlinguy wrote on Mar 8th, 2018 at 12:20pm:
winplumber wrote on Mar 7th, 2018 at 7:11pm:
Someone asked me to put a price on this gun I have no idea what this is worth not that its for sale just wondering , I was told that the tang sight is a Pope sight years ago, Any ideas ?


I absolutely love your Pope Ballard, but couldn't begin to make a guess. The market today is crazy, and I see them going much less than they did a decade ago. Have a couple Pope barreled rifles, and the prices a decade or two ago told me I'd never own one. But both of mine were stupid cheap and I can't say why anymore than I could guess what yours would sell for.
Maybe more pictures of your Ballard, plus any information on whatever tools and accessories accompany the gun, might help someone make a guesstimate?

Thanks but what you see is what I got with this gun the false muzzle is not with it. As being a Pope I cant say it is its not marked. I was told years ago that the tang sight & lever were Pope ,who knows for sure , Im going to call it a Marlin Ballard maybe Pope Trim , Thank You for any input ! Smiley
  
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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #36 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 7:33pm
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Thanks for clearing that up. Without any Pope markings and since it's right hand twist it's not Pope rifling either, so it's a lot easier to guesstimate. I forgot the earlier posts telling us it wasn't a Stevens-Pope, and thus my error in thinking it was.
It's a very nicely done schuetzen rifle, with no provenance, and an unknown maker. The Pope tang sight adds a lot if it's an original Pope, and not a copy. But I see rifles like this selling anywhere from as low as $2300 to around $3,000 on the high end.
If there was some history that could be traced, or some info on who did the work, it might get more. I have a very similar Ballard I purchased last year for under $2500 and in like new condition. But no tang sight. Same lever and buttplate, and presentation grade wood.
  

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Re: Stevens-Pope Ballard
Reply #37 - Mar 8th, 2018 at 7:48pm
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Thanks !
  
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