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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo (Read 5394 times)
rfknut1
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Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Jul 3rd, 2009 at 10:19am
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I gave  a portuguese Guedes rifle . I have found one box of ten rounds of military ammo .I found some 8X60 kropatcek wooden bullet blanks  I had read that thse were interchangable, if not I could possibly trim them and reload with cast bullets- its to bad they are berdan primed. The rifle has a ZAR marking I was told this was a south african/ boer mark. I would appreciate any information on the gun or the ammo
  
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J. pickup
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #1 - Jul 3rd, 2009 at 12:17pm
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I never owned a Guedes, but shot a 8mm x 56 Kropshack(not sure of my spelling) which reguardless of what you read in Cartridges of the world, is the same ammo. I used pulled .329 8mm Hungerigan bullets, these were pointed and jacketed.Of course i used the rifle as a single-shot.The original loads used .326 dia bullets in a .330 groove, which is normal for European ammo. i used .348 winchester cases necked down, which worked fine. I don't rebember the load i used, as  the rifle was stolen in 1982. I recommend a specal Lee .329 bullet mold for the 8mm M95 Steyr.The only problem you may have is that some
of these guns have tight chambers so you may need to neck-ream your cases so you can use .329 bullets. Good luck
  
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waterman
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #2 - Jul 3rd, 2009 at 2:10pm
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I don't have a Guedes, but I have an 1886 Kropatschek.  JP is correct.  The cases are the same.  COTW is in error.  I read that the original cartridges for the Guedes were paper patched, but have never seen one.  I have several of the Kropatschek cartridges as loaded in Portugal.  All were 8x60R cases.  All were loaded with black powder, whether wooden bullet blanks or jacketed round-nosed military ammunition.  Military bullets had steel jackets (check w/magnet) & were .326" in diameter.  I have been told that the 8x56R cases were a late manufacturing change but were intended for the use in the Krop rifles.  

Don't bother with blank cases.  1st, primers are probably corrosive & maybe mercuric.  Firing them may make the cases unusable.  2nd, military blanks are often loaded into reject brass, stuff that did not meet the standards for service ammo.  3rd, I don't think the ammo has been loaded since the 1920s.  All those cases are probably more than 80 years old.  My bet is that they will split on firing.  

8x56R Hungarian cases will readily form into 8x60R, but you still have Berdan primers.  I make 8x60R from 348 Win cases in a CH4D FL die. The Krop has a concave bolt face.  I must back-chamfer the case rims.  That may not be needed for the Guedes.  Depends on the face of the breech block.

Make a chamber cast & slug your bore.  Then measure cases & try a few in your rifle.  You probably will not need to trim the cases.  I tried Lyman 328371 seated in a formed 348 case.  It would not chamber.  I think .329 bullets are too big.  

I have had some luck using ordinary jacketed 8mm bullets.  Most accurate so far is 220 gr Remington bullet for 8mm Rem Mag & 40 gr of 4064. That is about as hot as I care to go with my Krop.  I recommend you start with the 170 gr Hornady or Remington RN bullets.  Use the loads recommended for the 33 WCF as a starting guide for powder charge.  Remember, it is an old black powder rifle.
  
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6mmintl
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #3 - Jul 10th, 2009 at 2:23pm
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Try the LEE .329 -205 mold for the Steyr 95 straight pull rifle.

Casts .329-.330

Dont know what base diameter is for Gueded but also look at 8x56R steyr privi brass
  
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #4 - Jul 10th, 2009 at 5:18pm
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I also have Guedes that I have had for a number of years. It is also marked ZAR (Zuid Afrikan Republik). I use CH4D Dies & 348 Winchester cases. It is called the 8x56R, 8x58R & 8x60R depending on who is writing the article. I shoot cast bullets in this rifle as that is what was orginally loaded. The best load I have come up with is with a NEI324205 sized .325 (my rifle will not accept a larger diametre) 230gr. weight with 25gr IMR SR4759. Gives 1743fps velocity & good accuracy. The action is very strong, i.e., like a Martini, etc., but why abuse it. These rifles are very rare. I have seen 5 physical specimens in the past 50 years & I own one of the 5. Hope some of this rambing helps.
  
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rfknut1
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #5 - Jul 10th, 2009 at 11:13pm
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Duckrider  What sort of finish is on your rifle? the military rounds I have have a cupro nickle jacketed bullet not lead.
  
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #6 - Jul 11th, 2009 at 1:12am
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Test the cupronickle bullets with a magnet.  They may turn out to be steel jackets, often written about in pulp fiction but seldom encountered.

I read somewhere (Grant?) that only 5,000 Guedes rifles were manufactured.  Does anyone know?
  
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Duck_Rider
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #7 - Jul 11th, 2009 at 10:05am
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My Guedes has a blued finish, as have all I have seen & mine is about 95%+ in finish. My serial No. is 2xxx. Which would go along with low production as they were only produced for 1 year (1885). The original Guedes round was a 247gr paper patched bullet. The Kropatschek was a 247gr unpatched bullet, whether it was lead or cupro-nickel, I don't know.
Velocity was 1700-1750fps on both rounds. Hope this helps.
  
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #8 - Jul 12th, 2009 at 1:20am
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I had a bunch of portugese kropatschek ammo and bullets in their origional packaging. Rounds dated from 1910 to about 1928. Bullets were in both cupro nickle (non magnetic) and steel jacketed (magnetic).
Frank
  

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tbird1960
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #9 - Jul 15th, 2009 at 1:21pm
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Here is a link that you might find interesting.
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
The one I have has been reblued at some time in the past. I lucked out and got mine with a set of dies and 100 pieces of brass. I purchased the lee mould marked 8mm kar but have not shot any bullets from it yet. The one I have is the only one I have ever seen and it is marked z.a.r. on top of the receiver. It is a very strong action.
  

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rfknut
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #10 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 10:40pm
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This is rfknut  I still have the Guedes. Haven't got  rid of it yet. I started a new profile after My computer crashed and had to rebuild Info... New email too...
  
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #11 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 3:15pm
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RFKnut - I know I am replying to an old post. 

You may well already know this, but Privi Partizan Uzice sells both 8x56mmR (Austro-Hungarian Empire) brass and .329" bullets.  (Probably Graf and Sons is the most likely place to find them.) 

The bullets are 206 grain, FMJ spitzer profile types.  The cases are Boxer primed (yay!) 

No idea about loading dies, but LEE precision makes dies for the 8x56mmR (etc) cartridge, if that helps.  Good luck.
  
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rfknut
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #12 - Aug 11th, 2017 at 10:55pm
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Thanks I'll check into that...
  
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Duck_Rider
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #13 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 2:30pm
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The Prvi Partizan 8 x 56R brass is for the Austrian/Hungarian rifles. The head is .495 as opposed to the Guedes .545 same as a 348 Winchester.

  
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Re: Info needed on 8x56 guedes rifle or ammo
Reply #14 - Aug 16th, 2017 at 3:03am
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Start with .348 Winchester brass.  It should form easily in the proper FL die.
  
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