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frnkeore
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Bullet Designs and Specs
Apr 30th, 2013 at 2:03am
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I bought a bullet design program about a year ago and I have found it to be very accurate in calculating mathematical ballistic coefficients and I thought it might help people on this forum to make choices and decisions of what they may want to try.

My main area of interest is spitzers and most of these will be in that area but, not all.

I will start with the Ideal/Lyman molds that I have and then go on to target molds that I own, as well as bullets out of molds that I have obtained from friends.

Frank

  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #1 - Apr 30th, 2013 at 2:18am
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #2 - Apr 30th, 2013 at 7:36am
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Very nice. What is the program name and where did you purchase? Thanks.
  

Glenn
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #3 - Apr 30th, 2013 at 4:58pm
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frnkeore,

Have you tried these bullet designs against each other to see if the calculated BC holds up in the real world?

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT
  
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #4 - Apr 30th, 2013 at 5:52pm
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What? No paper patch bullets? What is the world coming to?  Undecided

Harry
  
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #5 - Apr 30th, 2013 at 6:22pm
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Mike,
All that I can tell you right now is, Lymans # 4, Cast Bullet Manual, lists the 257420 at a BC of .129 and the 319247 at a BC of.208.

One thing that you have to remember about bullet shapes and BC's is that velocity can make a very big difference. i.e. flat nosed and round nose bullets generally have a higher BC at lower velocities <1200 fps and extremely sharpe points give higher BC's at over 22-2400 fps.

If you can look on page 98 of the 46th Lyman reloading manual it shows the differances in BC's for different velocitys of the same cast bullets. I believe Sierra give simular info on their jacketed bullets.

I don't know what velocity that the BC's are calulated at in this program but, you can use it to see what happens with the change in bullet shape and make comparisons to other bullets.

I have two other programs that calulate BC and this one compares well with them. But, only velocity differances over a given distance, as gaged by caliberated chronographs will give the actual BC and you have to factor in air dencity on any given day along with that.

In the end it is just a tool to be used in designing bullets with the hope of reducing wind drift. BC never won a match all by itself Smiley

Frank
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #6 - Apr 30th, 2013 at 6:24pm
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Harry,
I've only ever used paper patches on cigarettes Wink

Frank
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #7 - Apr 30th, 2013 at 6:44pm
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Without the use of a sofisticated and state of the art ballistics system it would be next to impossible to verfy real life BC's. I was fortunate to be able to do so last Thursday and it was a real eye opener. The results were not close to any of those guess and by golly computor programs offered on the net, including the bullet design software Frank has shared and that comment is not meant to be offensive, just real comparative results from the same program.
  
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #8 - Apr 30th, 2013 at 7:59pm
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John,
Has Barry tried any of those designs? The spitzer do work that has proven it's self since the Germans invented them but, it good to know by what margin.

Frank
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #9 - Apr 30th, 2013 at 8:24pm
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Part 2.
First is a no name mold that I have.
Even though the picture shows no taper. all the below molds are tapered by various amounts.
« Last Edit: Mar 16th, 2015 at 9:10pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #10 - Apr 30th, 2013 at 9:11pm
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Frank- I've tested just about every conceivable spitzer design cast bullet, many times the BC's of the bullet design software do not come close to the actual BC's determined by actual ballistic testing. Most software programs assume that the bullet is stable for its entire travel to the target, this is NEVER the case (The Bullets Flight by FW Mann), therefore the BC's tend to be higher than actual test firing, this is especially true in the case of the 100 and 200 yard ranges fired by schuetzen rifles. For instance the software of your bullet design program is for longer ranges per BPCR shooting. What my ballistic system allows me to do is find the optimum stability velocity for each bullet/rifling twist combination.
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Barry
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #11 - Apr 30th, 2013 at 10:31pm
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That looks like a pretty nifty piece of software.

It would be interesting to compare the B.C. Of the bullet as it was cast with it's B.C. after it gets bumped up upon firing.  I know that smokeless is different than black powder, but I've seem pictures of many slender nosed bullets whose noses looked entirely different after being shot over a case of black powder.  Perhaps the change in shape due to bump up is one factor in the differences obtained via simulation and "real life".

Chris.
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #12 - May 1st, 2013 at 8:38am
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Chris- I've noticed the bump/slump also with smokeless powder loads and I suspect that some spitzer designs  may also allow the larger ogive radius noses to have a tendency to slump off center due to rotational acceleration while confined in their travel down the barrel. Remember that BC is only an indicator of a bullets efficiency (time to target) and not an indicator of its consistent accuracy at any given range. Currently I believe a 5r ogive to be about optimum for efficiency and structural strength.  Prior to 1978 spitzers were rarely, if ever, used in ASSRA matches, with all the testing I've done over the past 10 years I still believe a flat nose bullet has an edge in accuracy for calm condition shooting. An accurate, higher BC spitzer has the advantage with its reduced wind drift. The spitzer style bullets became popular after the first Coors Match in 1982 and 200 yard shooting, prior to then most SS matches were at 100 yards.
Barry
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #13 - May 1st, 2013 at 9:02am
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ole7groove wrote on Apr 30th, 2013 at 9:11pm:
Frank- I've tested just about every conceivable spitzer design cast bullet, many times the BC's of the bullet design software do not come close to the actual BC's determined by actual ballistic testing.
/snip/

Test-firing comes upwith a lot of surprises. Some years ago I made a series of aluminium moulds to cast bullets for a little rifle. Nothing so grand as calculations - it was pure suck-it-and-see. The first few were too light, and at 130 yds (FP to sand in butts) the bullets made (approximately) a ten-foot group...

In the end I just used 9mm and .38 bullets whose weights I knew (or I'd weighed). It shot perfectly with, if I can remember that far back, 126 grain Luger cast bullets - about three times the weight of the first of my first batch from the home-made moulds.

Aonghas
  
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #14 - May 2nd, 2013 at 1:31am
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More Ideal/Lymans
« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2013 at 1:44am by frnkeore »  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #15 - May 2nd, 2013 at 1:35am
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #16 - May 2nd, 2013 at 1:38am
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Even more
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #17 - May 4th, 2013 at 9:51pm
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Some more custom bullets
« Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2015 at 10:04pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #18 - Jun 1st, 2013 at 4:54pm
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J Louis wrote on Apr 30th, 2013 at 6:44pm:
Without the use of a sofisticated and state of the art ballistics system it would be next to impossible to verfy real life BC's. I was fortunate to be able to do so last Thursday and it was a real eye opener. The results were not close to any of those guess and by golly computor programs offered on the net, including the bullet design software Frank has shared and that comment is not meant to be offensive, just real comparative results from the same program.


So far my program has shown it's self to be very conservative. I talked to Barry and he had results for my borrowed 33 cal Ron Long bullet that was shot in the Modesto match by it's owner. The program predicted a BC of .395 and in actual firing at 200 yards the BC was .44. With another less areodynamic bullet my program predicted a BC of .282 and that bullets actual 200 yard BC was .32 and change. So, it maybe inaccurate but, in the direction at I preffer Smiley

Frank
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #19 - Jun 1st, 2013 at 5:32pm
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Here are a few more, The last bullet down is the one I just ordered from Brooks.

« Last Edit: Aug 20th, 2013 at 11:24am by frnkeore »  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #20 - Jul 25th, 2013 at 6:52pm
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Three more molds.

  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #21 - Jul 25th, 2013 at 9:41pm
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Frank, the Ideal 375166 bullet is 330gr.  The Precision program calculates it as 314gr
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #22 - Jul 25th, 2013 at 10:34pm
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I would not put to much faith in the program, especially the estimated BC's! They differ substantially based on ones particular elevation and density altitude. The drawings don't even include a baseline showing what the estimations where based off of that I can see by reviewing them.
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #23 - Jul 25th, 2013 at 10:59pm
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John,
As I stated before, to date, the bullets that have been tested at your range have resulted in higher BC's than the program computes.

John Boy,
The 375166 was already in the program when I got it. If you'd like to send me a bullet, I'd be happy to input the actual diamensions of your bullet. 

I post these bullet designs for informational purposes. It's not to just produce a BC. It's also to show the design criteria.The Ballistic Coeficent can change with the velocity. Most sharper pointed bullets will increase the BC with higher velocity and most blunt or round nose will increase with lower velocity, especially subsonic.

But, it will generally hold true that comparing bullet designs in this program to each other, the programs BC for one, will hold true for the others.

Bullets are aerodynamic devices and are nothing but a completely round wing as far as design goes. What holds true for wing design will hold true for bullet designs.

Frank
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #24 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 12:22am
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Frank the bullets tested through the system at my range were dramatically different than the same bullets tested on the East coast in regards to the average BC's. they were allot lower than mine as well as the programs. All I am trying to point out to the group is they might not actually be getting what is printed and that the odds of them doing so would more than likely be against them. Even worse would be for them to start telling everyone in their group as well as others how extremely high their average BC's are while not actually knowing what they really are of which is like selling a bad bag of goods unknowingly.
  
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #25 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 1:06am
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John,
It's the design of the bullet that creates the BC. It doesn't matter where it is shot, what matters is the design. The BC will be lower or higher on the East coast as well as the West coast, in relation to each other, based on the design.

This isn't just for BC that this information is being posted. There was a question asked resently about bands and lube grooves. If you study the successfull bullet designs, you will be able to determine a type that will work for your application. It's more about how to make informed decisions, based on what works.

Frank
« Last Edit: Aug 20th, 2013 at 11:22am by frnkeore »  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specslso I suspect
Reply #26 - Jul 26th, 2013 at 3:40am
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Frank & John-
A bullet does NOT change its BC with velocity. The bullet is not changing as it travels through the air. Its a mathematical trick you are observing. Measuring a BC at a particular velocity forces the theoretical drag to fit the drag function at that velocity. Just because you have forced the measured and theoretical drag curve functions to fit at one velocity doesn't mean that they will fit at other velocities. The drag function used for sporting ammo is "G1", while not perfect it is the most meaningful way of comparing projectile performance. Sometimes we try to hammer a square peg into a round hole and find we only have a tight fit in the corners. Bullets tested at 200 yards vs 100 yards can vary significantly, aside from the fore mentioned, BC's at 200 yards tend be more accurate since the bullet has been stabilized for a greater percent of its flight. The ballistic data observed on the East Coast was developed at 200 yards and at an altitude of 2000 ft. Also I suspect that air density may play a role in the time required to allow a bullet to stabilize. If air density has an effect on how rapidly a bullet stabilizes it is not computed into the standard atmospheric condition. I have done ballistic testing for over 12 years and rarely have seen the same bullet have the same BC day after day, just don't happen. Finally BC's have nothing to do with accuracy, only wind drift and target energy considerations. NUF SED 
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #27 - Aug 19th, 2013 at 4:56pm
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I bought a couple more mold and I'll post two more Lyman's.

The last one is a modified nose version of the other 33, increasing the length to 1.245 and reducing the meplat to .060.
« Last Edit: Mar 16th, 2015 at 2:44pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #28 - Aug 20th, 2013 at 9:57am
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The forum should consider making a sticky of this thread. Frank has put in a lot of work and there is a tremendous amount of good information for reference. JMHO.
Chuck
  
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #29 - Aug 8th, 2014 at 5:16pm
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Well, it's been almost a year since I last posted bullet designs I've bought a few molds since then so I though I'd post a few more designs.

First up is a Paul Jones mold that I just got, it was made for German Schuetzens. It casts .3165 in 22/1 but, this program rounds up so, it calls it a .317 dia. Since it is cylindrical, I assume it was ment to be shot from a case but, I'll BS it.

If there are any other PJ molds out there simular to this one, please contact me.

The next two are 30 cals, the NEI I've used BSed in my 32/35 and my wifes 32/20 it shoots just about as well as my Ron Long molds but the BC is a bit less.

I haven't shot the 311365 yet but, I'll try it in a 30/40 and '06 and then when I get my RKS mounted on my Hoch.

Frank

PS
I've added my new 319201 to this post.

PSS
I believe my mold had the cherry droped in .025 short. I added to the base band until I got the advertized 184 gr bullet so, I've mark that drawing as "original".
« Last Edit: Mar 16th, 2015 at 8:32pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #30 - Oct 27th, 2014 at 6:39pm
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Four fairly common 25 calibers for the turn of the century. From my collection.

Frank
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #31 - Jan 20th, 2015 at 3:44am
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Four more. The first one is my 3rd Ron Long 30 cal bullet, The one that the wife has been shooting in her 32/20.


  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #32 - Mar 17th, 2015 at 3:30am
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I edited some of my first drawings on page 1 and put the actual tapered band diameters on them so, the "various tappered bands" doesn't apply any more.

A few more for your viewing pleasure.

The first one is a NEI 7mm, 4 cav that I bought but reamed the GC's off 2 cavs so it's SS legal. The last three can be had at the NOE site.

Frank
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #33 - Mar 18th, 2015 at 9:35pm
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Glad you keep posting these Frank.  I've been so busy I've neglected the learning curve.  Your drawings keep reminding me.   

I'd like to do what you are doing, though I've not the vintage molds you have.  Still hope to draw what I do have one of these days.   What I really need to do though is get started on a mold I want to order from Tom at Accurate.   After I get the kinks worked out of a couple Ballards and enough reloaded for a couple summer time shoots I hope the get out in front of that one.   Was really hoping to do the drawing before I order, if for nothing else to learn the program and say I did it.   

Time keeps slipping...
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #34 - Mar 30th, 2015 at 12:04pm
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For those interested in the Eagan bullet designs, I resently was given Eagans catalog so, I'm drawing them up in this format. All his designs are for linotype as the alloy.

Frank
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #35 - Jun 3rd, 2015 at 1:53am
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A Tribute to Paul Jones.

The .3165 & 1.17 lg, .32 molds are mine. The 25 and 1.29 lg, 32 cal bullets are ones that Dave Patterson gave me. Thank you, Dave.

If anyone has a PJ 30 cal bullet that they could send me, I would like to add it to this collection.

Frank
« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2015 at 11:27am by frnkeore »  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #36 - Jun 3rd, 2015 at 8:21am
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Just a general question.  I note that some designs in the same basic bore diameter bullet have significant differences in the length of the "base-band".   Assuming a tight enough bore-bullet fit to provide adequate gas seal; does the length of the base band make any difference other than to add or subtract mass weight/bullet length and thus S.D. ?
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #37 - Jun 3rd, 2015 at 11:55am
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Wayne,
In general, the longer base bands are a feature used for BSing. It allows more adjustabilty in setting the BSer for best accuracy, as well as adding strenght to the base band to prevent collapsing the band, into the groove at ignition. They are also, in general, about .001 larger in diameter than the nominal groove diameter, to ensure a good seal of the barrel and prevent gas cutting.

Personally, I think that a bullet made for BSing should have a minimum, base band lenght of about .3 of the groove diameter but, as long as the base band seals the barrel and prevents gas cutting, it's fine. The long base band just makes it a little easier to do.

My PJ .3165 diameter bullet was made for shooting fixed, Tommy Mason has one that looks just like it but, has the wider base band, because he order his for BSing.

As yet, I haven't be able to shoot mine because my groove is .315 and it won't fit in my BSer w/o sizing and I haven't got around to making a sizer. If I have any trouble with it, I can always lenghten the base band.

Frank
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #38 - Jun 9th, 2015 at 1:46am
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A few years ago, a close friend, sold me his 44 1/2. I had installed a Bo Clerke 30 cal Barrel on it in 32/35 Stevens. At a later date, he had a 25/35 barrel put on it and I also got that barrel. I sold that barrel but, kept the 25 cal, Barnett mold. That happened four years ago well, yesterday he found the catalog that he got with the mold and brought it over to me.

Because Jerry Barnett was such a great mold maker and because he has such a wealth of very interesting and useful information in the catalog, I thought that I would post the complete catalog for everyone enjoyment.

The catalog is from March of 1994 and he was selling is molds for $85 with handles at that time. Note, that he wrote (Pg 16) that as of April 1st of '94, he was raising his price $5.

Enjoy,

Frank
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #39 - Jun 9th, 2015 at 1:48am
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #40 - Jun 9th, 2015 at 1:50am
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #41 - Jun 9th, 2015 at 1:52am
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #42 - Jun 9th, 2015 at 2:05am
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This is the last page. Note that it is a paste in, suppliment with his 25 and 45 caliber designs. On the inside cover, he states that the 45 cals will be available in early '93 (he hopes) so, the 25 cals like I have may have been available about the same time, possibly.

I'm also picturing my mold and it's dimensions. Mine is the 25 - 2.
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #43 - Jul 31st, 2015 at 2:56pm
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I was asked to check out a Pioneer mold so, I drew it up, too.

The next two are a Modern Bond mold that I have. Both bullets are cut in the same block and are from the same cherry just one is shorter. The second set of MB mold numbers are the designed length but, for what ever reason, it didn't come out that way. Shrinkage would allow for .005 but, they are .015 short.

Frank
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #44 - Jan 11th, 2016 at 3:22pm
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More bullets.
My 319273 & Andels version of the 311403
Beltfed's 308281 & 311403

A note:
On the 308281, there is a dirt cather groove at the juction of the nose & the SR band. The program won't let me draw it though.

Additional note:
I found a article by JoeB and in that article, it had a drawing of this bullet, done by Bobbie Kell Jr. The dimensions vary a little from the bullets I got from Beltfed, the main one is the meplat, .200 vs .184. It's not suprising since Ideal/Lyman cherry's differed through out there manufactoring history.





Frank
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #45 - Feb 8th, 2016 at 12:20pm
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Froggie sent me these two 33 cal bullets, the 338237 & 89.

I resently got the Bo Clerke 33 cal mold.

Frank
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #46 - Mar 10th, 2016 at 7:34pm
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Some new 32's for the Library, including a very interesting Zischang.

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #47 - Jan 5th, 2017 at 7:16pm
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Our forum member, Fritz send me this Paul Jones catalog to post for everyone. Thank you, very much, Fritz.

I'm also adding Bill Smith mold a excellent New York mold maker, that's not with us any longer.

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #48 - Sep 6th, 2017 at 5:31pm
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I'm falling behind on my bullet project. For this post, I'm adding all the different variation of the 25 cal Mos molds, that I have samples from, plus the NOE version from a sample that someone sent him.

First, is my newest one. I got it from Westerner.

Next is the bullet that JerryH shoots.

Then the NOE version

Last, the cylinderical bullet that I design, based on Jerrys mold. There is also a GC version.

Tomorrow, I will add a brooks version and a Darr version.

Frank
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #49 - Sep 6th, 2017 at 6:31pm
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This thread begs to be a STICKY!
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #50 - Sep 7th, 2017 at 12:21pm
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John Boy, it is a Sticky Smiley

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #51 - Sep 7th, 2017 at 1:29pm
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Frank - Opps!
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #52 - Sep 7th, 2017 at 2:03pm
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As promiced. The Brooks and Darr bullets.

I now own the Brooks mold and will modify it as shown in the second drawing, before I use it. I think one of the important features of this Mos and Mos copys, is the shallow grooves, it adds strength to the bullets body.

The last drawing is with the groove depth of JerryH's mold.

Frank
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #53 - Sep 8th, 2017 at 1:49pm
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I got another 311365 mold, a few days ago. Check out the drawaing of the first 311365 mold (newer Ideal mold), on page 2 of this thread, it's the same length but, quite different.

Next is a Bo Clerke, 32 cal.

Then the Egan bullet, made for 32 cal BSing.

Last, the RCBS 25 cal mold.

Frank
  

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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #54 - Sep 8th, 2017 at 3:43pm
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Thanks for the updates Frank.
  
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Re: Bullet Designs and Specs
Reply #55 - Sep 15th, 2017 at 5:04pm
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A year or more ago.i bought a Andela mold, off Ebay. I hadn't heard of him but, he made every nice molds, out of 11L14.

Last weekend, I found a 17th edition (1997) of Gun Digest and while looking through it I found a ad for Andela molds. I was supprized at how many molds he made, there must be quite a few out there.

Mine is electric pin marked and the poor picture, reads .309 x 301E

Here is the info in the Gun Digest, I think it may help others identify his molds, when they are found.

Frank

  

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