Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions (Read 14624 times)
J Louis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3209
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #15 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 11:09pm
Print Post  
Let me make something perfectly clear, I don't care if the FBW does not meet the traditional rule and I have tried to make that clear on several occasions yet it continually and unfairly continues to
arise as an on going personnel agenda on my behalf that does not even exist. The point I was trying to make was just because something has been acceptable / common practice in the past does not mean it has been grandfathered in and is now acceptable just because an individual and or certain individuals simply feel that is the way it should be. I don't really care what cases you or others use as parent cases to form into others as long as they meet the current rules. I cannot tell if they do or if they do not meet the traditional rules there are those holding positions within the governing organizations elected to make those determinations. I can tell you that the use of 357 Max. cases in order to replicate traditional 30-30 Wesson cases in my personnel opionion is indeed apples and oranges and they would not be traditional.
Chambers were mentioned briefly by another poster thus the prior comment.
JLouis
« Last Edit: Jan 28th, 2014 at 11:41pm by J Louis »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bohemianway
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 378
Location: Andover, MN
Joined: Apr 16th, 2004
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #16 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:21am
Print Post  
This has turned away from the original intent. Save yourself some time and do not read the following rant:

I remember the original reason I fell for the Schuetzen game was due to the simple original (Coor's for me) rules:

1) Plain based bullets only.
2) Weather appropriate clothing only (no cheater coats).
3) No bolt actions (I really wouldn't care if they were allowed, lets face it Bolt guns predate the 44 1/2 and why is the 44 1/2 allowed in BPCR it is ten years after smokeless came out).

Rules #1 and #2 set comfortable limits. Then came the ridicules Schuetzen pistol class followed by the Traditional class which created space races for meeting these new rules and those with means had the best equipment for each class so that no originals could really compete....It was never about winning but having fun. I always wondered why guys were traveling to all of the Coors regionals until I placed and I was supprised when they gave me a check (who knew?). Now I understood that for some it was the money. I think we should add rule #4 "Honorable mention only".  Thirty years ago we talked about using formed wads and boattails but dismmissed it because even polywads seemed wrong. Although I am a firm believer in advancing the science it is with some limitations.

Sorry for the rant,
Charles
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
ASSRA Journal Editor
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 3499
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #17 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:39am
Print Post  
I think the question has already been answered. For years people have been using the 30 American brass to make 32-40 in the belief that the small primer has more accuracy potential. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever protested it and so by president it is legal.
  Personally I would consider any honest attempt to recreate an obsolete case with the closest available commercial brass as being “Traditional”. For example if someone wanted to make up a modern .32 Ideal case out of .222 rimmed or 5.6 X 50R magnum brass I would consider that an honest attempt and allow it in Traditional class. Remember it is a Traditional class not Amish class.
  It is important to remember here that I am not the Schuetzenmeister and my opinion should in no way be construed as carrying any weight beyond that. It is completely within the schuetzenmeister’s purview to tell me I am wrong and, at that point, I am.

40 Rod
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J Louis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3209
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #18 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 11:06am
Print Post  
40-Rod based on the below traditional rules I would have to gracefully dissagee.

Technology cutoff of circa 1917 as regards patents, sights, cartridges, loading techniques, and general configuration of the Schuetzen rifle.

JLouis
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J Louis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3209
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #19 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 11:23am
Print Post  
What I do agree with is the use of a parent cartridge case to exactly replicate an original design for those cases that are no longer available / obsolete. For those that do not meet the criteria of the 1917 rule same as the rifles they would be more than welcome in the non traditional / modern class.

JLouis
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
ASSRA Journal Editor
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 3499
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #20 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 3:44pm
Print Post  
John you have a valid point I don’t agree but that doesn’t make your point any less valid. Now I’m not busting your chops, I am curious as to how far tradition goes. If I am shooting a Ballard #8 with correct iron sights in 32-40 in a barrel that has a 1:14’ twist does that make it a non-traditional rifle? Ballards in 32-40 had 1: 16” barrels.

40 Rod
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J Louis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3209
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #21 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 6:43pm
Print Post  
40Rod there has to be a line drawn in the sand somewhere least we loose all hope of preservation per the mission statement as well as to honor the rules as they are currently written for the traditional class. If a traditional rifle using a traditional cartridge has a non traditional scope mounted on it, it no longer meets the traditional rules. Should a traditional rifle with a traditional scope using a non traditional cartridge then meet the rules? How does one define an original cartridge as meeting the 1917 rule? I would think one would use the same patent design criteria used to qualify a rifle. To address your twist question a 1-16 was indeed the standard twist for the 32-40 but during that point in time you could also custom order what you wanted.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Jan 29th, 2014 at 6:49pm by J Louis »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bohemianway
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 378
Location: Andover, MN
Joined: Apr 16th, 2004
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #22 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 7:03pm
Print Post  
yes, and you could order a 33-47 or any other chambering you could dream up. Short of new materials post 1917 nothing else is available now that was then.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 5831
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #23 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 7:15pm
Print Post  
Quote:
To address your twist question a 1-16 was indeed the standard twist for the 32-40 but during that point in time you could also custom order what you wanted.


So then, in that same vein, you can also custom order your cartridges and brass from a custom cartridge maker. The same as ordering a modern Douglas or other maker in 15, 14, 12 or even a 10 twist barrel.

Or am I thinking out of the box?

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 5831
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #24 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 8:14pm
Print Post  
I believe that I have the answer to this problem. The case that is pictured is out of my cartridge collection.

I believe it would be ok to use and would meet any "Traditional" rule, to make 30/30 or 30/40 Wesson cartridges out of original 38 XL cases or cases that are the same basic 38 XL size (read 357 Max).

The case head of this original 38 XL cartridge is .377, the body forward of the head and extending to the case mouth is .3805 and case is exactly 1.62 long.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
J Louis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3209
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #25 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:33pm
Print Post  
Frank here are the rules and they are pretty specific as well as simple to understand.

Section 1.30:  Traditional Rifle Rules
Any single shot rifle, foreign or domestic, manufactured prior to 1917. Reproductions of pre-1917 patents are allowed. Examples of traditional actions include, but are not limited to, the Ballard, Remington, Sharps, Stevens, Bullard, Maynard, Sharps-Borchardt, Remington-Hepburn, Winchester, Farrow, and Wesson.
Technology cutoff of circa 1917 as regards patents, sights, cartridges, loading techniques, and general configuration of the Schuetzen rifle.
Acceptable cartridges would be those manufactured by the above approved manufactures while still adhering to the 1917 rule. They both go hand in hand, a good example would be the 28-30 Stevens it being the only 28 manufactured by one of the above approved manufactures thus makes it the only acceptable 28 cartridge that would meet the rule.
No where does it state that a manufactured cartridge case meeting the above requirements can be reformed and or modified and still meet the rule. A good example would be to take the 30 Wesson case neck it down to 28 and then expect it to still be accepted, it does not work because Wesson never manufactured it for sale. An other example would be to blow out the 25-35 WCF to 28 and then to call it a 28-38-50 Ballard in an attemp to make it acceptable of which will not work as Ballard never manufactured it and offered it for sale.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:46pm by J Louis »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 5831
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #26 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:46pm
Print Post  
Quote:
No where does it state that a manufactured cartridge case meeting the above requirements can be reformed and or modified and still meet the rule. A good example would be to take the 30 Wesson case neck it down to 28 and then expect it to still be accepted, it does not work because Wesson never manufactured it for sale.

JLouis


?
What does a 30/30 Wesson, necked down to 28 caliber have to do with this discussion? Are you confusing the "Traditional 28" rules with the ISSA or ASSRA Traditional rules?

Are you saying that the rules would prevent reforming the 38 XL to 30/30 or 30/40 Wesson?

What would Pope have said about that?

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
J Louis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3209
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #27 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:42pm
Print Post  
Frank what I am saying is read the traditional rules as they are currently written and they are the same to my knowledge for both the ISSA and the ASSRA. It does not matter what Pope or anyone else might think they did not have a hand in writing these rules. They are what they are and they need to be adhered to and accepted as such. If you can't seem to accept them then I would make a request to have them revised but I am not sure how that could be accomplished without also revising the ASSRA 1948 Mission statement in regards to preservation. I did not make the rules, I am simply pointing out what they are saying so please don't take it personnel as if they are only being directed to you. If the rules are actually saying something other than what I am reading please specificaly point it out.

This subject almost replicates the liberals approach to the 2nd. amendment, change the true meaning until it fits a particular need.

JLouis
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 5831
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #28 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 6:37pm
Print Post  
J Louis wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:33pm:
Frank here are the rules and they are pretty specific as well as simple to understand.

Section 1.30:  Traditional Rifle Rules
Any single shot rifle, foreign or domestic, manufactured prior to 1917. Reproductions of pre-1917 patents are allowed. Examples of traditional actions include, but are not limited to, the Ballard, Remington, Sharps, Stevens, Bullard, Maynard, Sharps-Borchardt, Remington-Hepburn, Winchester, Farrow, and Wesson.
Technology cutoff of circa 1917 as regards patents, sights, cartridges, loading techniques, and general configuration of the Schuetzen rifle.
Acceptable cartridges would be those manufactured by the above approved manufactures while still adhering to the 1917 rule. They both go hand in hand, a good example would be the 28-30 Stevens it being the only 28 manufactured by one of the above approved manufactures thus makes it the only acceptable 28 cartridge that would meet the rule.
No where does it state that a manufactured cartridge case meeting the above requirements can be reformed and or modified and still meet the rule. A good example would be to take the 30 Wesson case neck it down to 28 and then expect it to still be accepted, it does not work because Wesson never manufactured it for sale.

An other example would be to blow out the 25-35 WCF to 28 and then to call it a 28-38-50 Ballard in an attemp to make it acceptable of which will not work as Ballard never manufactured it and offered it for sale.

JLouis


The words that I highlighted in red are Johns OPINION they are not rules. It seems as though he does not want anyone to shoot this cartridge, period.

The Wesson cartridges have very unique primers, either the Wesson case or Wesson primers are available today. They were patented primers.

Continued
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 5831
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #29 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 6:58pm
Print Post  
The patented Wesson primer is to short to be used in a case made by any other manufactor and the Wesson primer pocket is to shallow to allow any standard primer to be used.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Scoll down to the Wesson primers

The following is actually in the ASSRA rule book:

The success of the Traditional Class depends upon the shooters themselves. Radical, fringe interpretations of the rules will not be productive towards preserving our Schuetzen heritage. Traditionally minded shooters have a common sense grasp of what was typical and/or appropriate for the pre-1917 competitor. It is not the intention of the Traditional Class to exclude or in any way restrict participation in the Schuetzen discipline. Since the inception of Traditional Class there have been many questions regarding what modern equipment is allowed.

The Blue highlighting, just doesn't apply to ASSRA or ISSA rules, It applys only to "Wildcating" 28 caliber cartridges, in the Traditional 28, non sanctioned matches. Again apples and oranges.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5
Send TopicPrint