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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions (Read 14578 times)
J Louis
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #30 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:42pm
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Frank if you would have posted the rest of the rules beyond where you opted to stop
as it would also have included the following very specific and restrictive information.

Currently there are no restrictions placed upon any equipment other than the rifles, sights, cartridges, and loading techniques.

Please do not falsely use me to push your agenda as it is becoming quite obvious that you do not agree with the current rules and would like to establish your own by the very liberal portion of the rules you posted while leaving out the four very specific restrictions that are not so liberal. It is clear that our forefathers who included cartridges as one of the restrictions clearly felt an important need for them to do so. It possibly could have been to insure preservation or possibly something other than. The bottom line is the rules do exist, are specific in restricting four defined categories and cartridges is one of them and it surely has nothing to do with me but it must have been extremely important to them!

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40_Rod
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #31 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 8:31am
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John
Pope offered a 28 based on a necked down 32 Ideal and Zischang offered a 28 based on a necked down 32-35. Extending your logic on barrel twist both of these cartridges would be "Traditional"

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frnkeore
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #32 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 1:06pm
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John,
What I posted was The Sprit of the Rules. Here they are again, highlighting and underlining are mine:


The success of the Traditional Class depends upon the shooters themselves. Radical, fringe interpretations of the rules will not be productive towards preserving our Schuetzen heritage. Traditionally minded shooters have a common sense grasp of what was typical and/or appropriate for the pre-1917 competitor. It is not the intention of the Traditional Class to exclude or in any way restrict participation in the Schuetzen discipline. Since the inception of Traditional Class there have been many questions regarding what modern equipment is allowed.

Now I ask you. What is the diffinition of cartridge? Is it not devise of ASSYMBLED, case, primer, powder and bullet? Will you now require people to shoot only a cartridge in traditional matches as that is what the rules say and stipulate by your diffinition of them.

I really believe the people that put the rules together ment that the chamber had to be original (common since).

typical and/or appropriate, I believe that this statement would cover what we've been talking about and doesn't hold any part or the Traditional rules as "hard and fast". Anyone in our sport (with maybe one exception) would think that it is reasonable for golden age shooters to adapt any case (w/o changing the chamber) to their needs if they had that case in hand and wanted to shoot it, because of availablity or any other reason.

Frank
  

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J Louis
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #33 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 1:29pm
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40Rod the key word in the rules used to describe acceptable Rifles and Actions is "Manufactured" and of course the date. In responce to twist rate it was under the assumption one could what ever he wanted from Win., Stevens, etc. when placing an order with custom options. Is it your opionion that the restrictions on the cartridges do not fall under the same manufacturing guidlines as do the Rifles and Actions and of course this would include the 1917 timeline as well. Would not Zischang and Popes 28's then be considered to be wildcats? There is a definite intent in the cartridge restriction rule, exactly what that intent was is hard to get a handle on but it appears to point back to that key word
manufactured? I am not trying to be arguementive nor I am trying to start a pissing match I am trying to grasp the true intent of the restriction. I would really think it beneficial to get more than a couple interpretations and would hope others would jump in with theirs after taking the time to read through the rules in there entirety and not to simply pick and choose.

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westerner
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #34 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 2:04pm
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Obviously another thread evolved into a pissing match between Louis and Frank. Referee'd by 40-Rod.


            Joe.

  
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westerner
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #35 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 2:21pm
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frnkeore wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 1:06pm:
John,
What I posted was The Sprit of the Rules. Here they are again, highlighting and underlining are mine:


The success of the Traditional Class depends upon the shooters themselves. Radical, fringe interpretations of the rules will not be productive towards preserving our Schuetzen heritage. Traditionally minded shooters have a common sense grasp of what was typical and/or appropriate for the pre-1917 competitor. It is not the intention of the Traditional Class to exclude or in any way restrict participation in the Schuetzen discipline. Since the inception of Traditional Class there have been many questions regarding what modern equipment is allowed.

Now I ask you. What is the diffinition of cartridge? Is it not devise of ASSYMBLED, case, primer, powder and bullet? Will you now require people to shoot only a cartridge in traditional matches as that is what the rules say and stipulate by your diffinition of them.

I really believe the people that put the rules together ment that the chamber had to be original (common since).

typical and/or appropriate, I believe that this statement would cover what we've been talking about and doesn't hold any part or the Traditional rules as "hard and fast". Anyone in our sport (with maybe one exception) would think that it is reasonable for golden age shooters to adapt any case (w/o changing the chamber) to their needs if they had that case in hand and wanted to shoot it, because of availablity or any other reason.

Frank


I don't see anything wrong with Frank's post. Why don't you address his post, Louis?

    Joe.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #36 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 3:06pm
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Also, by your strick inturputation of the Traditional rules, the CPA would not be legal.

Since it was not made by Stevens, or by modifing a Stevens, the barrel thread would disqualify it. Breech block safety measures have been done to  original Stevens but, I do not know of any Stevens receiver ring ever being bore out and rethreaded to a larger thread diameter.

Frank

« Last Edit: Feb 1st, 2014 at 3:16am by frnkeore »  

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J Louis
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #37 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 3:23pm
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Frank I believe you are missing the main point. The written restriction in regards to cartridges follows the spirit of the rules and would thus. take precedence. It makes those four restrictions very clear, the question at hand is what is the true meaning and what was the intent. One cannot look at what they did in the golden years of Pope etc. and the spirit there of as these specific rules were written and adopted after that point in time. The question at hand still is what was the intent while taking the key word manufactured into consideration?

JLouis

  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #38 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 3:37pm
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I'm not missing the point in anyway. You are trying to make a perfectly legal and traditional chambering unavailable to compete in matches. Is that the intent of the governing bodys? Tell me what the following quote  means and most of all tell if the CPA meets the Traditional rules as YOU put them forth.

Quote:
It is not the intention of the Traditional Class to exclude or in any way restrict participation in the Schuetzen discipline.


Also tell me what this quote means in your opinion:

Quote:
typical and/or appropriate for the pre-1917 competitor.


Would that include Pope, Zischang and other Golden age shooters?

Frank

PS
Don't forget your opinion on the CPA. I believe it clearly doesn't conform to your diffinition.

  

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J Louis
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #39 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 5:36pm
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Frank in your opionion should the 32 Miller Short qualify under the current rule and please explain why.

Frank I am not trying to stop anyone from doing anything but you just can't seem to grasp that so please stop making those false accusations. It was my hopes that we the group could have a gentleman's conversation on the subject and I don't want to see the moderators stepping in to end.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:27pm by J Louis »  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #40 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:09pm
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Can someone please explain what is 30 American brass ? tia
  
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frnkeore
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #41 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:11pm
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Quote:
Frank in your opionion souls the 32 Miller Short qualify under the current rule and please explain why
.

If it can be varified that the 32 Miller Short was used prior to 1917, then the answer is yes, if not, the answer is no. If someone came up with a documented pre 1917 record of a 32 caliber based on the 38 XL or 30/30-40 Wesson, I wouldn't have a problem with that either.

I see no reason that a Zischang or Pope cartridge will not qualify for traditional. I would be very upset if I bought a clearly pre 1917 Pope or Zischang and wasn't allowed to shoot it in Traditional.

So, you will not adderess the issue of the CPA qualifing for Traditional? It clearly doesn't. I have no issue using a CPA but, I'm sure that you must.

Frank
  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #42 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:12pm
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30-30 brass with small primer pocket. I think.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #43 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:20pm
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Can someone please explain what is 30 American brass ? tia

In the late 1980's they came about because it was thought that with a small rifle primer, in a American case similar in size to the PPC case, a  competitive American cartridge might be found.

They were produced by Federal and didn't last to long. I got mine in 1987 and have used them since for 32/40 and to make 32/35 Stevens cases.

I don't always use them, even in 32/35 but, as a tool to find accuracy.

Frank
  

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J Louis
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #44 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:26pm
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Frank I have never said that the CPA did not qualify, I simply questioned the slight modifications. I received clarification from the powers that be and I am good with it. I might add that all of my Traditional Class honors over the years were shot with my CPA so why in the world would I want to shoot myself in foot!

Questioning the rules is healthy, if our mission statement is preservation it is our duty to see that it does indeed remains preserved. Whether or not someone agrees with the rules is neither here nor there but it is critcal as good stuarts to insure that they are being adhered to as the are written. I might also add that I never said that I agree with the cartridge rule as I read it you took it upon yourself to make that determination.

JLouis

  
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