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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions (Read 14625 times)
frnkeore
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #45 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:46pm
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So, can we safely say the the 30/30 Wesson, made from 357 Max, or 38 XL cases, qualifies for the Traditional class just as well as the thick side, large thread CPA?

Frank
  

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J Louis
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #46 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 11:49pm
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Frank absolutely no it would not be safe to say! Once again it is not my call to make nor is it yours, there are elected officials within each organization, ISSA and ASSRA that are charged with interpreting the true intent of the rules as they are currently written. With that being said I would not build a rifle with the intent of shooting the traditional class around a replacement cartridge that might not qualify? I am not trying to prevent the gentleman from doing any thing, I am simply saying it might not qualify per the rules to possibly save him from a very expensive disappointment.

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7groove
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #47 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 1:36am
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Gentlemen-
Are you also suggesting that only black powder be used in the traditional cartridges? Prior to 1912, ammunition available for sporting use was factory loaded with black powder and smokeless powder was not generally available for reloading. Originally smokeless powder was available as a bulk powder that was loaded to the same volumes as black powder. Huh  This is getting real close to your cutoff date, 1917.

  

The more ballistic research I do convinces me all the more Schoyen, Pope and Peterson had it right over 100 years ago.
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frnkeore
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #48 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 2:53am
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Quote:
I am not trying to prevent the gentleman from doing any thing, I am simply saying it might not qualify per the rules to possibly save him from a very expensive disappointment.


And what I'm saying is that there is more chance that the CPA "might not qualify" for the Traditional class if a official protest were lodge because of the thickside, large barrel thread and in many cases, the draw bolt but, you call these slight modifications? I call them major modifications. Much more intrusive than a primer size change, that could fall under the pre 1917 patent clause.

After all it is specifically addressed in the Quote:
" Currently there are no restrictions placed upon any equipment other than the rifles, sights, cartridges, and loading techniques" section.


Also, you never responded to my question on your thoughts about:

Quote:
It is not the intention of the Traditional Class to exclude or in any way restrict participation in the Schuetzen discipline.


OR:

Quote:
typical and/or appropriate for the pre-1917 competitor.


Would that include Pope, Zischang and other Golden age shooters?

I do agree that it not yours or mine to dictate what the rules mean but, your original post was that it would not qualify. I was pointing out what the sprit of the rules are and that because of the special Wesson primer, there could never be a cartridge made exactly like the Wesson. Also, that a pre 1917 shooter could very well have made 30/30-40 Wesson cartridges out of the 38 XL.

Frank

« Last Edit: Feb 1st, 2014 at 3:24am by frnkeore »  

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J Louis
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #49 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 12:08pm
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It is not the intention of the Traditional Class to exclude or in any way restrict participation in the Schuetzen discipline.

Frank to answer your above question that is why both Schuetzen organizations have two distinct seperate classifications in order to not restrict those who's equipment does not qualify for the Traditional class so that they may also participate per the above quoted rule.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #50 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 12:21pm
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7Groove interesting comment, would that fall under the loading techniques rule or the cartridge rule?

JLouis
  
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frnkeore
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #51 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 1:44pm
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Ok John,
That's your opinion on it but, the wording is about the Traditional class and says noting about the "open" class or suggesting they can go there to shoot a non conforming rifle or ammo or sights.

Now, how about my second question:


Quote:
typical and/or appropriate for the pre-1917 competitor.



Would that include Pope, Zischang and other Golden age shooters?

You suggested earlier in this thread that what Pope did has no bearing on the Traditional rules. Your quote follows:

Quote:
It does not matter what Pope or anyone else might think they did not have a hand in writing these rules. They are what they are and they need to be adhered to and accepted as such.


By the quoted rule above, I do believe the "golden Age" guy's did have a hand in forming the rules.

Frank
  

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J Louis
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #52 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 2:52pm
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Frank I will leave it to the governing powers that be from each organization to address your questions. My thoughts on the matter as are yours are really meaningless and without merit so I am done with with subject. I would suggest that you send in a written request of interpretation to both organizations and when you receive their written responses please scan and post the letters for all to review.

JLouis
  
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BP
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #53 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 3:24pm
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Quote:
...My thoughts on the matter as are yours are really meaningless and without merit so I am done with with subject. ...


JLouis,

Why would the thoughts of the members of an organization be "really meaningless and without merit" ?

  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #54 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 5:07pm
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BP they are actually key and very critical to keeping things in check thus I laid mine on the table with hopes others would do the same. Unfortunately in this instance it has now become meaning less and without merit and seems to be in need of an official interpretation from the powers that be. I would sure enjoy hearing your thoughts on the matter after fully reading and analyzing the rules as well as those from others. I have had enough of the current one and I am done with it but new ones would be quite refreshing to hash around.


JLouis
« Last Edit: Feb 1st, 2014 at 5:22pm by J Louis »  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #55 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 7:47pm
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Don't know about all the previous info but I built one a few years ago using a Dave Kiff supplied reamer with dims. from a Steve Garbe build. I am also in the process of a low wall build so if you come up with a reamer would you chamber mine as well? Mine will be a plinker and general purpose lead bullet gun for fun. Kiff has the reamer drawing and I don't know where Steve Garbe got his dims. from. I use 357 max brass and 4d dies.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #56 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:04pm
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Quote:
Acceptable cartridges would be those manufactured by the above approved manufactures while still adhering to the 1917 rule.


JLewis,

If you have issues with the various primer sizes that could be used, then if you are shooting traditional class, and following along with what I seem to be hearing is your line of reasoning, everyone had better submit chamber casts from their rifle to the Schuetzenmeister before competing in that class to verify that their chamber and throating fully comply with the original Manufacturer’s specifications per the 1917 rule.
If someone has used a throating reamer to modify the chamber from the Manufacturer’s specs, do you feel the rifle can no longer be used in traditional class?
Is this where you really want to take things?

I agree with 40 Rod’s comment that traditional class does not equate with Amish class.

Easy way to solve the issue seems to be that if something is not already accepted as conforming with the 1917 rule, and you desire to use it in Traditional class, then do your research and provide your documentation supporting your position to the Schuetzenmeister for a decision about compliance.

PS: Don't think it would hurt things if you are planning on building a rifle (or having one built) to be used for traditional class, to submit your plans to the Schuetzenmeister to confirm compliance or for any needed revisions to your plans before spending a big chunk of change.

« Last Edit: Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:11pm by BP »  

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westerner
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #57 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:16pm
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I will stick with chizeling Willies historic recommendation.  If the rifle is on the bench and it looks like a traditional rifle and it smells like a traditional rifle and no one questions whether it's a traditional rifle. It falls under the "don't ask don't tell" policy. I say nothing.   Lips Sealed

       Joe.
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #58 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:15am
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BP I no longer compete in the Traditional Class by my choice in equipment, all though both of my rifles  are in the Traditional style my choice of action and cartridge for the 28 do not meet the rules and I use a non traditional scope on my 52 CPA 32-40 as well as the 28. What I was trying to do was to determine the intent of the cartrige rule in the traditional class based on both the manufacture requirement and the pre 1917 criteria as spelled out in the rules. In other words I would like to know where the line in the sand has been drawn to insure that we can properly preserve this class and it's history for future generations. The rules have become so liberal that last year a rifle that did not fit the design criteria took first place honors in the traditional class at the National event. As you might know by reading some of the posts here by some of those who were elected or have volunteered to over see the health and wefare of this organization have stated that the Traditional class our roots and the organizations mission statement in there opinion is nothing more than a token class now. All though I choose not to shoot in the class it is imperative that the rules be stringently adhered to, to insure that our true heritage is preserved. If we do not question what the true intent of the four specific rules are it will go from a token class to being historically incorrect and then non-existant and we are rapidly moving in that direction.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:31am by J Louis »  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #59 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 7:13am
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John,

I agree that the traditional class is fading, so it's highly likely the roots of this sport will wither just as fast, and the shooters who pursue it are fading too. Our eyes are getting weaker, so we have to break away from traditional class and mount Targetspots, Unertls and other high resolution scopes to still attempt to score reasonably well and grab a possible win while we still can. The few remaining traditionally equipped rifles will outlast us all anyway. And since we don't seem to bring in young blood who can boost traditional class participation, well, there we are.
Guess it's human nature to accept the view that traditional will be a token class when fewer feel they can successfully participate in it.

As far as determining the intent of the cartridge rule in regards to the traditional class requirements, you've put the question forward, so we're pretty much stuck waiting for an official response from the powers that be. It's in their hands now, along with the rest of the ball of wax so to speak.

  

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