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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions (Read 15990 times)
bohemianway
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WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Jan 27th, 2014 at 4:50pm
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WTF (Want to find) complete chamber or case dimension for 30-30 Wesson. I have the base, rim dia, length, but it would be useful to have the neck dimensions and taper dimensions to make a reamer. I have seen here information on smaller neck sizes for allowing tight fit and neck reaming.

Or, if someone has a used reamer to sell or rent.

Thank you,
Charles
  
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Deadeye Bly
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #1 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 9:07am
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Donnelly's Handbook of Cartridge Conversions lists the neck diameter at .329" and the body angle as .907 deg/side. It lists the 357 Max as the cartridge from which to make it. You need to measure your brass thickness to determine the actual neck diameter you need for your bullet.
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #2 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 12:13pm
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Unfortunately the 0.907 degrees per side does not work. It leaves a neck length of 0.060". For a guessed neck length of 0.5" and assumed .380" base and .330" neck gives a single side angle of 1.268 degrees.

Maybe someone can give suggestions on the range of neck lengths would make a great BS and fixed cartridge.

Thank you,
Charles
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #3 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 12:30pm
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Maybe I'm missing something but...
the .30-30 wesson is a straight case so it has no neck length.
I would think that with the base D. of .380 inch, the neck D. to fit your intended bullet, and the case length of 1.66 inch, it would be a matter of calculating the taper needed.
BTW, the loaded length is 2.50 inch. That should help with the design of the reamer as well.
  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #4 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 12:34pm
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I would suggest a neck of .320, that gives you one caliber with a little extra to trim or not.

Remember on your taper that you have end it at .200 forward of the case base. That area is solid and won't take a taper. If you have a .330 neck and a .376 case head, you need a included taper per inch (TPI) of .042 or 1.203 deg. per side over a distance of 1.11, from the solid case head to the start of the neck.

The 357 Max has a .010 neck thickness and I make my necks .330 for a .310 ID before firing, if your chamber neck is .330, after firing it will be .329, a perfect fit for a .309/.310 bullet.

This is a cartridge that I've wanted to use for about 3 years and that is the design that I would have made if I do one.

Frank
« Last Edit: Jan 28th, 2014 at 12:58pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #5 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 12:39pm
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Actually the case we are talking about would be the 30/40 Wesson, it's 1.63 long.

While true that the case would be considered a straight taper, in reality it has to have a cylindrical neck to hold the bullet. You can't size the case to hold the bullet w/o that.

Frank
  

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J Louis
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #6 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 2:47pm
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The 30-30 Wesson used a large rifle primer so the 357
Maximum would not replicate the original design.

From Cartridges Of The World
Case type - Tapered
Bullet dia. - .308"
Neck dia. - .329"
Base dia. - .380"
Rim dia. - .440"
Case length - 1.66"
C.O.L. - 2.50"
Twist - 12"
Primer - Large
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #7 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 3:11pm
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J Louis wrote on Jan 28th, 2014 at 2:47pm:
The 30-30 Wesson used a large rifle primer so the 357
Maximum would not replicate the original design.

From Cartridges Of The World
Case type - Tapered
Bullet dia. - .308"
Neck dia. - .329"
Base dia. - .380"
Rim dia. - .440"
Case length - 1.66"
C.O.L. - 2.50"
Twist - 12"
Primer - Large


Are you saying that it would not be legal as a tradition cartridge because it uses a LRP?

Frank
  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #8 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 3:34pm
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That is good question Frank and one for the ASSRA Schuetzen Meister to address not me and probably should be looked into if meeting the traditional class is also one of the goals. I was simply pointing out that the use of the Max. case would not be the correct choice for duplicating the original and I do not believe you could call it as such. It would simply be another new cartridge based off of the Max. case. We had a couple of our top competitors jump on the 30-30 Wesson for competitive use quite some time back and really gave them a run for the money but they just didn't pan out and I don't remember the parent case they were using to make their brass.

JLouis
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #9 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 3:45pm
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It might be interesting call and then if ruled against, it would also eliminate the use of small rifle primers in 32/40's and 38/50 Ballards or disallow the use of 30 American or small primer RMC cases in both those cartridges.

I've been using (as well as others) 30 American case for a very long time in both my 32/40's and 32/35's.

Frank

  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #10 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 4:01pm
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This is a great discussion! The intent would be for traditional otherwise I would simply ream it as a 327 Federal magnum and be done with it. That begs the question on how close does the dimensions have to be to be "traditional"? If they get out the micrometer I'd bet a high percentage of the "traditional" rifles out there would fail. Most of my originals have generous chambers nothing like the competition rifles of today.
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #11 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 4:16pm
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Charles, a reference for over 1400 caliber dimensions ...
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Your test in the morning ... what are the dimensions for Record No 118?  Wink
  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #12 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 5:32pm
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That is still the information we already have but does not help in the location of the transition from neck to taper or taper angle to draw the complete cartridge.
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #13 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 5:44pm
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Frank non-traditional actions used to build Tradional Rifles use to qualify for the first Coors Matches but that no longer holds true so why should there be an exception for the cartridges? In regards to minor variations in chambers I could not imagine Pope, Schoyen, Peterson, Zischang and all the then different current manufactures all being exactly the same in regards to their Schuetzen target rifles.

JLouis
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #14 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 9:34pm
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We are talking apples and oranges here, John. Brass is a consumable rifles are forever. I don't understand your logic here. Brass cand conform quite a bit to  chambers that are a little different and as a matter of fact, I've never heard of a "brass" rule, is there such a thing?

Are my 30/40 Krag case that I swage to 32/40 legal? Are my 30 American case legal in 32/40 and 32/35? Are lathe turned or reduced capacity RMC cases legal? Are stortened 9.3x 74R or 35 Winchester cases legal for 40/63 Ballard? And last, if I open the 357 Max primer pockets to LRP size, will that then make them legal?

The Coors matches (god bless them) were never part of the ASSRA. ISSA may be a off shoot of Coors but, now a days, not really.  Since Coors ISSA and ASSRA has tried to make rules conform as best they can.

That said, you might be better off going to ISSA and trying to get them to allow FIX actions in the ISSA Traditional class.

Frank
  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #15 - Jan 28th, 2014 at 11:09pm
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Let me make something perfectly clear, I don't care if the FBW does not meet the traditional rule and I have tried to make that clear on several occasions yet it continually and unfairly continues to
arise as an on going personnel agenda on my behalf that does not even exist. The point I was trying to make was just because something has been acceptable / common practice in the past does not mean it has been grandfathered in and is now acceptable just because an individual and or certain individuals simply feel that is the way it should be. I don't really care what cases you or others use as parent cases to form into others as long as they meet the current rules. I cannot tell if they do or if they do not meet the traditional rules there are those holding positions within the governing organizations elected to make those determinations. I can tell you that the use of 357 Max. cases in order to replicate traditional 30-30 Wesson cases in my personnel opionion is indeed apples and oranges and they would not be traditional.
Chambers were mentioned briefly by another poster thus the prior comment.
JLouis
« Last Edit: Jan 28th, 2014 at 11:41pm by J Louis »  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #16 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:21am
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This has turned away from the original intent. Save yourself some time and do not read the following rant:

I remember the original reason I fell for the Schuetzen game was due to the simple original (Coor's for me) rules:

1) Plain based bullets only.
2) Weather appropriate clothing only (no cheater coats).
3) No bolt actions (I really wouldn't care if they were allowed, lets face it Bolt guns predate the 44 1/2 and why is the 44 1/2 allowed in BPCR it is ten years after smokeless came out).

Rules #1 and #2 set comfortable limits. Then came the ridicules Schuetzen pistol class followed by the Traditional class which created space races for meeting these new rules and those with means had the best equipment for each class so that no originals could really compete....It was never about winning but having fun. I always wondered why guys were traveling to all of the Coors regionals until I placed and I was supprised when they gave me a check (who knew?). Now I understood that for some it was the money. I think we should add rule #4 "Honorable mention only".  Thirty years ago we talked about using formed wads and boattails but dismmissed it because even polywads seemed wrong. Although I am a firm believer in advancing the science it is with some limitations.

Sorry for the rant,
Charles
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #17 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:39am
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I think the question has already been answered. For years people have been using the 30 American brass to make 32-40 in the belief that the small primer has more accuracy potential. To the best of my knowledge no one has ever protested it and so by president it is legal.
  Personally I would consider any honest attempt to recreate an obsolete case with the closest available commercial brass as being “Traditional”. For example if someone wanted to make up a modern .32 Ideal case out of .222 rimmed or 5.6 X 50R magnum brass I would consider that an honest attempt and allow it in Traditional class. Remember it is a Traditional class not Amish class.
  It is important to remember here that I am not the Schuetzenmeister and my opinion should in no way be construed as carrying any weight beyond that. It is completely within the schuetzenmeister’s purview to tell me I am wrong and, at that point, I am.

40 Rod
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #18 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 11:06am
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40-Rod based on the below traditional rules I would have to gracefully dissagee.

Technology cutoff of circa 1917 as regards patents, sights, cartridges, loading techniques, and general configuration of the Schuetzen rifle.

JLouis
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #19 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 11:23am
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What I do agree with is the use of a parent cartridge case to exactly replicate an original design for those cases that are no longer available / obsolete. For those that do not meet the criteria of the 1917 rule same as the rifles they would be more than welcome in the non traditional / modern class.

JLouis
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #20 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 3:44pm
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John you have a valid point I don’t agree but that doesn’t make your point any less valid. Now I’m not busting your chops, I am curious as to how far tradition goes. If I am shooting a Ballard #8 with correct iron sights in 32-40 in a barrel that has a 1:14’ twist does that make it a non-traditional rifle? Ballards in 32-40 had 1: 16” barrels.

40 Rod
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #21 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 6:43pm
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40Rod there has to be a line drawn in the sand somewhere least we loose all hope of preservation per the mission statement as well as to honor the rules as they are currently written for the traditional class. If a traditional rifle using a traditional cartridge has a non traditional scope mounted on it, it no longer meets the traditional rules. Should a traditional rifle with a traditional scope using a non traditional cartridge then meet the rules? How does one define an original cartridge as meeting the 1917 rule? I would think one would use the same patent design criteria used to qualify a rifle. To address your twist question a 1-16 was indeed the standard twist for the 32-40 but during that point in time you could also custom order what you wanted.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Jan 29th, 2014 at 6:49pm by J Louis »  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #22 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 7:03pm
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yes, and you could order a 33-47 or any other chambering you could dream up. Short of new materials post 1917 nothing else is available now that was then.
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #23 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 7:15pm
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Quote:
To address your twist question a 1-16 was indeed the standard twist for the 32-40 but during that point in time you could also custom order what you wanted.


So then, in that same vein, you can also custom order your cartridges and brass from a custom cartridge maker. The same as ordering a modern Douglas or other maker in 15, 14, 12 or even a 10 twist barrel.

Or am I thinking out of the box?

Frank
  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #24 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 8:14pm
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I believe that I have the answer to this problem. The case that is pictured is out of my cartridge collection.

I believe it would be ok to use and would meet any "Traditional" rule, to make 30/30 or 30/40 Wesson cartridges out of original 38 XL cases or cases that are the same basic 38 XL size (read 357 Max).

The case head of this original 38 XL cartridge is .377, the body forward of the head and extending to the case mouth is .3805 and case is exactly 1.62 long.

Frank
  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #25 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:33pm
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Frank here are the rules and they are pretty specific as well as simple to understand.

Section 1.30:  Traditional Rifle Rules
Any single shot rifle, foreign or domestic, manufactured prior to 1917. Reproductions of pre-1917 patents are allowed. Examples of traditional actions include, but are not limited to, the Ballard, Remington, Sharps, Stevens, Bullard, Maynard, Sharps-Borchardt, Remington-Hepburn, Winchester, Farrow, and Wesson.
Technology cutoff of circa 1917 as regards patents, sights, cartridges, loading techniques, and general configuration of the Schuetzen rifle.
Acceptable cartridges would be those manufactured by the above approved manufactures while still adhering to the 1917 rule. They both go hand in hand, a good example would be the 28-30 Stevens it being the only 28 manufactured by one of the above approved manufactures thus makes it the only acceptable 28 cartridge that would meet the rule.
No where does it state that a manufactured cartridge case meeting the above requirements can be reformed and or modified and still meet the rule. A good example would be to take the 30 Wesson case neck it down to 28 and then expect it to still be accepted, it does not work because Wesson never manufactured it for sale. An other example would be to blow out the 25-35 WCF to 28 and then to call it a 28-38-50 Ballard in an attemp to make it acceptable of which will not work as Ballard never manufactured it and offered it for sale.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:46pm by J Louis »  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #26 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:46pm
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Quote:
No where does it state that a manufactured cartridge case meeting the above requirements can be reformed and or modified and still meet the rule. A good example would be to take the 30 Wesson case neck it down to 28 and then expect it to still be accepted, it does not work because Wesson never manufactured it for sale.

JLouis


?
What does a 30/30 Wesson, necked down to 28 caliber have to do with this discussion? Are you confusing the "Traditional 28" rules with the ISSA or ASSRA Traditional rules?

Are you saying that the rules would prevent reforming the 38 XL to 30/30 or 30/40 Wesson?

What would Pope have said about that?

Frank
  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #27 - Jan 29th, 2014 at 10:42pm
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Frank what I am saying is read the traditional rules as they are currently written and they are the same to my knowledge for both the ISSA and the ASSRA. It does not matter what Pope or anyone else might think they did not have a hand in writing these rules. They are what they are and they need to be adhered to and accepted as such. If you can't seem to accept them then I would make a request to have them revised but I am not sure how that could be accomplished without also revising the ASSRA 1948 Mission statement in regards to preservation. I did not make the rules, I am simply pointing out what they are saying so please don't take it personnel as if they are only being directed to you. If the rules are actually saying something other than what I am reading please specificaly point it out.

This subject almost replicates the liberals approach to the 2nd. amendment, change the true meaning until it fits a particular need.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #28 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 6:37pm
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J Louis wrote on Jan 29th, 2014 at 9:33pm:
Frank here are the rules and they are pretty specific as well as simple to understand.

Section 1.30:  Traditional Rifle Rules
Any single shot rifle, foreign or domestic, manufactured prior to 1917. Reproductions of pre-1917 patents are allowed. Examples of traditional actions include, but are not limited to, the Ballard, Remington, Sharps, Stevens, Bullard, Maynard, Sharps-Borchardt, Remington-Hepburn, Winchester, Farrow, and Wesson.
Technology cutoff of circa 1917 as regards patents, sights, cartridges, loading techniques, and general configuration of the Schuetzen rifle.
Acceptable cartridges would be those manufactured by the above approved manufactures while still adhering to the 1917 rule. They both go hand in hand, a good example would be the 28-30 Stevens it being the only 28 manufactured by one of the above approved manufactures thus makes it the only acceptable 28 cartridge that would meet the rule.
No where does it state that a manufactured cartridge case meeting the above requirements can be reformed and or modified and still meet the rule. A good example would be to take the 30 Wesson case neck it down to 28 and then expect it to still be accepted, it does not work because Wesson never manufactured it for sale.

An other example would be to blow out the 25-35 WCF to 28 and then to call it a 28-38-50 Ballard in an attemp to make it acceptable of which will not work as Ballard never manufactured it and offered it for sale.

JLouis


The words that I highlighted in red are Johns OPINION they are not rules. It seems as though he does not want anyone to shoot this cartridge, period.

The Wesson cartridges have very unique primers, either the Wesson case or Wesson primers are available today. They were patented primers.

Continued
  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #29 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 6:58pm
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The patented Wesson primer is to short to be used in a case made by any other manufactor and the Wesson primer pocket is to shallow to allow any standard primer to be used.

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Scoll down to the Wesson primers

The following is actually in the ASSRA rule book:

The success of the Traditional Class depends upon the shooters themselves. Radical, fringe interpretations of the rules will not be productive towards preserving our Schuetzen heritage. Traditionally minded shooters have a common sense grasp of what was typical and/or appropriate for the pre-1917 competitor. It is not the intention of the Traditional Class to exclude or in any way restrict participation in the Schuetzen discipline. Since the inception of Traditional Class there have been many questions regarding what modern equipment is allowed.

The Blue highlighting, just doesn't apply to ASSRA or ISSA rules, It applys only to "Wildcating" 28 caliber cartridges, in the Traditional 28, non sanctioned matches. Again apples and oranges.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #30 - Jan 30th, 2014 at 9:42pm
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Frank if you would have posted the rest of the rules beyond where you opted to stop
as it would also have included the following very specific and restrictive information.

Currently there are no restrictions placed upon any equipment other than the rifles, sights, cartridges, and loading techniques.

Please do not falsely use me to push your agenda as it is becoming quite obvious that you do not agree with the current rules and would like to establish your own by the very liberal portion of the rules you posted while leaving out the four very specific restrictions that are not so liberal. It is clear that our forefathers who included cartridges as one of the restrictions clearly felt an important need for them to do so. It possibly could have been to insure preservation or possibly something other than. The bottom line is the rules do exist, are specific in restricting four defined categories and cartridges is one of them and it surely has nothing to do with me but it must have been extremely important to them!

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #31 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 8:31am
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John
Pope offered a 28 based on a necked down 32 Ideal and Zischang offered a 28 based on a necked down 32-35. Extending your logic on barrel twist both of these cartridges would be "Traditional"

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #32 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 1:06pm
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John,
What I posted was The Sprit of the Rules. Here they are again, highlighting and underlining are mine:


The success of the Traditional Class depends upon the shooters themselves. Radical, fringe interpretations of the rules will not be productive towards preserving our Schuetzen heritage. Traditionally minded shooters have a common sense grasp of what was typical and/or appropriate for the pre-1917 competitor. It is not the intention of the Traditional Class to exclude or in any way restrict participation in the Schuetzen discipline. Since the inception of Traditional Class there have been many questions regarding what modern equipment is allowed.

Now I ask you. What is the diffinition of cartridge? Is it not devise of ASSYMBLED, case, primer, powder and bullet? Will you now require people to shoot only a cartridge in traditional matches as that is what the rules say and stipulate by your diffinition of them.

I really believe the people that put the rules together ment that the chamber had to be original (common since).

typical and/or appropriate, I believe that this statement would cover what we've been talking about and doesn't hold any part or the Traditional rules as "hard and fast". Anyone in our sport (with maybe one exception) would think that it is reasonable for golden age shooters to adapt any case (w/o changing the chamber) to their needs if they had that case in hand and wanted to shoot it, because of availablity or any other reason.

Frank
  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #33 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 1:29pm
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40Rod the key word in the rules used to describe acceptable Rifles and Actions is "Manufactured" and of course the date. In responce to twist rate it was under the assumption one could what ever he wanted from Win., Stevens, etc. when placing an order with custom options. Is it your opionion that the restrictions on the cartridges do not fall under the same manufacturing guidlines as do the Rifles and Actions and of course this would include the 1917 timeline as well. Would not Zischang and Popes 28's then be considered to be wildcats? There is a definite intent in the cartridge restriction rule, exactly what that intent was is hard to get a handle on but it appears to point back to that key word
manufactured? I am not trying to be arguementive nor I am trying to start a pissing match I am trying to grasp the true intent of the restriction. I would really think it beneficial to get more than a couple interpretations and would hope others would jump in with theirs after taking the time to read through the rules in there entirety and not to simply pick and choose.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #34 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 2:04pm
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Obviously another thread evolved into a pissing match between Louis and Frank. Referee'd by 40-Rod.


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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #35 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 2:21pm
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frnkeore wrote on Jan 31st, 2014 at 1:06pm:
John,
What I posted was The Sprit of the Rules. Here they are again, highlighting and underlining are mine:


The success of the Traditional Class depends upon the shooters themselves. Radical, fringe interpretations of the rules will not be productive towards preserving our Schuetzen heritage. Traditionally minded shooters have a common sense grasp of what was typical and/or appropriate for the pre-1917 competitor. It is not the intention of the Traditional Class to exclude or in any way restrict participation in the Schuetzen discipline. Since the inception of Traditional Class there have been many questions regarding what modern equipment is allowed.

Now I ask you. What is the diffinition of cartridge? Is it not devise of ASSYMBLED, case, primer, powder and bullet? Will you now require people to shoot only a cartridge in traditional matches as that is what the rules say and stipulate by your diffinition of them.

I really believe the people that put the rules together ment that the chamber had to be original (common since).

typical and/or appropriate, I believe that this statement would cover what we've been talking about and doesn't hold any part or the Traditional rules as "hard and fast". Anyone in our sport (with maybe one exception) would think that it is reasonable for golden age shooters to adapt any case (w/o changing the chamber) to their needs if they had that case in hand and wanted to shoot it, because of availablity or any other reason.

Frank


I don't see anything wrong with Frank's post. Why don't you address his post, Louis?

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #36 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 3:06pm
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Also, by your strick inturputation of the Traditional rules, the CPA would not be legal.

Since it was not made by Stevens, or by modifing a Stevens, the barrel thread would disqualify it. Breech block safety measures have been done to  original Stevens but, I do not know of any Stevens receiver ring ever being bore out and rethreaded to a larger thread diameter.

Frank

« Last Edit: Feb 1st, 2014 at 3:16am by frnkeore »  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #37 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 3:23pm
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Frank I believe you are missing the main point. The written restriction in regards to cartridges follows the spirit of the rules and would thus. take precedence. It makes those four restrictions very clear, the question at hand is what is the true meaning and what was the intent. One cannot look at what they did in the golden years of Pope etc. and the spirit there of as these specific rules were written and adopted after that point in time. The question at hand still is what was the intent while taking the key word manufactured into consideration?

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #38 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 3:37pm
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I'm not missing the point in anyway. You are trying to make a perfectly legal and traditional chambering unavailable to compete in matches. Is that the intent of the governing bodys? Tell me what the following quote  means and most of all tell if the CPA meets the Traditional rules as YOU put them forth.

Quote:
It is not the intention of the Traditional Class to exclude or in any way restrict participation in the Schuetzen discipline.


Also tell me what this quote means in your opinion:

Quote:
typical and/or appropriate for the pre-1917 competitor.


Would that include Pope, Zischang and other Golden age shooters?

Frank

PS
Don't forget your opinion on the CPA. I believe it clearly doesn't conform to your diffinition.

  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #39 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 5:36pm
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Frank in your opionion should the 32 Miller Short qualify under the current rule and please explain why.

Frank I am not trying to stop anyone from doing anything but you just can't seem to grasp that so please stop making those false accusations. It was my hopes that we the group could have a gentleman's conversation on the subject and I don't want to see the moderators stepping in to end.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:27pm by J Louis »  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #40 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:09pm
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Can someone please explain what is 30 American brass ? tia
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #41 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:11pm
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Quote:
Frank in your opionion souls the 32 Miller Short qualify under the current rule and please explain why
.

If it can be varified that the 32 Miller Short was used prior to 1917, then the answer is yes, if not, the answer is no. If someone came up with a documented pre 1917 record of a 32 caliber based on the 38 XL or 30/30-40 Wesson, I wouldn't have a problem with that either.

I see no reason that a Zischang or Pope cartridge will not qualify for traditional. I would be very upset if I bought a clearly pre 1917 Pope or Zischang and wasn't allowed to shoot it in Traditional.

So, you will not adderess the issue of the CPA qualifing for Traditional? It clearly doesn't. I have no issue using a CPA but, I'm sure that you must.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #42 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:12pm
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30-30 brass with small primer pocket. I think.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #43 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:20pm
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Quote:
Can someone please explain what is 30 American brass ? tia

In the late 1980's they came about because it was thought that with a small rifle primer, in a American case similar in size to the PPC case, a  competitive American cartridge might be found.

They were produced by Federal and didn't last to long. I got mine in 1987 and have used them since for 32/40 and to make 32/35 Stevens cases.

I don't always use them, even in 32/35 but, as a tool to find accuracy.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #44 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:26pm
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Frank I have never said that the CPA did not qualify, I simply questioned the slight modifications. I received clarification from the powers that be and I am good with it. I might add that all of my Traditional Class honors over the years were shot with my CPA so why in the world would I want to shoot myself in foot!

Questioning the rules is healthy, if our mission statement is preservation it is our duty to see that it does indeed remains preserved. Whether or not someone agrees with the rules is neither here nor there but it is critcal as good stuarts to insure that they are being adhered to as the are written. I might also add that I never said that I agree with the cartridge rule as I read it you took it upon yourself to make that determination.

JLouis

  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #45 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 6:46pm
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So, can we safely say the the 30/30 Wesson, made from 357 Max, or 38 XL cases, qualifies for the Traditional class just as well as the thick side, large thread CPA?

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #46 - Jan 31st, 2014 at 11:49pm
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Frank absolutely no it would not be safe to say! Once again it is not my call to make nor is it yours, there are elected officials within each organization, ISSA and ASSRA that are charged with interpreting the true intent of the rules as they are currently written. With that being said I would not build a rifle with the intent of shooting the traditional class around a replacement cartridge that might not qualify? I am not trying to prevent the gentleman from doing any thing, I am simply saying it might not qualify per the rules to possibly save him from a very expensive disappointment.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #47 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 1:36am
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Gentlemen-
Are you also suggesting that only black powder be used in the traditional cartridges? Prior to 1912, ammunition available for sporting use was factory loaded with black powder and smokeless powder was not generally available for reloading. Originally smokeless powder was available as a bulk powder that was loaded to the same volumes as black powder. Huh  This is getting real close to your cutoff date, 1917.

  

The more ballistic research I do convinces me all the more Schoyen, Pope and Peterson had it right over 100 years ago.
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #48 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 2:53am
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Quote:
I am not trying to prevent the gentleman from doing any thing, I am simply saying it might not qualify per the rules to possibly save him from a very expensive disappointment.


And what I'm saying is that there is more chance that the CPA "might not qualify" for the Traditional class if a official protest were lodge because of the thickside, large barrel thread and in many cases, the draw bolt but, you call these slight modifications? I call them major modifications. Much more intrusive than a primer size change, that could fall under the pre 1917 patent clause.

After all it is specifically addressed in the Quote:
" Currently there are no restrictions placed upon any equipment other than the rifles, sights, cartridges, and loading techniques" section.


Also, you never responded to my question on your thoughts about:

Quote:
It is not the intention of the Traditional Class to exclude or in any way restrict participation in the Schuetzen discipline.


OR:

Quote:
typical and/or appropriate for the pre-1917 competitor.


Would that include Pope, Zischang and other Golden age shooters?

I do agree that it not yours or mine to dictate what the rules mean but, your original post was that it would not qualify. I was pointing out what the sprit of the rules are and that because of the special Wesson primer, there could never be a cartridge made exactly like the Wesson. Also, that a pre 1917 shooter could very well have made 30/30-40 Wesson cartridges out of the 38 XL.

Frank

« Last Edit: Feb 1st, 2014 at 3:24am by frnkeore »  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #49 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 12:08pm
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It is not the intention of the Traditional Class to exclude or in any way restrict participation in the Schuetzen discipline.

Frank to answer your above question that is why both Schuetzen organizations have two distinct seperate classifications in order to not restrict those who's equipment does not qualify for the Traditional class so that they may also participate per the above quoted rule.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #50 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 12:21pm
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7Groove interesting comment, would that fall under the loading techniques rule or the cartridge rule?

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #51 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 1:44pm
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Ok John,
That's your opinion on it but, the wording is about the Traditional class and says noting about the "open" class or suggesting they can go there to shoot a non conforming rifle or ammo or sights.

Now, how about my second question:


Quote:
typical and/or appropriate for the pre-1917 competitor.



Would that include Pope, Zischang and other Golden age shooters?

You suggested earlier in this thread that what Pope did has no bearing on the Traditional rules. Your quote follows:

Quote:
It does not matter what Pope or anyone else might think they did not have a hand in writing these rules. They are what they are and they need to be adhered to and accepted as such.


By the quoted rule above, I do believe the "golden Age" guy's did have a hand in forming the rules.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #52 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 2:52pm
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Frank I will leave it to the governing powers that be from each organization to address your questions. My thoughts on the matter as are yours are really meaningless and without merit so I am done with with subject. I would suggest that you send in a written request of interpretation to both organizations and when you receive their written responses please scan and post the letters for all to review.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #53 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 3:24pm
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Quote:
...My thoughts on the matter as are yours are really meaningless and without merit so I am done with with subject. ...


JLouis,

Why would the thoughts of the members of an organization be "really meaningless and without merit" ?

  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #54 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 5:07pm
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BP they are actually key and very critical to keeping things in check thus I laid mine on the table with hopes others would do the same. Unfortunately in this instance it has now become meaning less and without merit and seems to be in need of an official interpretation from the powers that be. I would sure enjoy hearing your thoughts on the matter after fully reading and analyzing the rules as well as those from others. I have had enough of the current one and I am done with it but new ones would be quite refreshing to hash around.


JLouis
« Last Edit: Feb 1st, 2014 at 5:22pm by J Louis »  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #55 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 7:47pm
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Don't know about all the previous info but I built one a few years ago using a Dave Kiff supplied reamer with dims. from a Steve Garbe build. I am also in the process of a low wall build so if you come up with a reamer would you chamber mine as well? Mine will be a plinker and general purpose lead bullet gun for fun. Kiff has the reamer drawing and I don't know where Steve Garbe got his dims. from. I use 357 max brass and 4d dies.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #56 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:04pm
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Quote:
Acceptable cartridges would be those manufactured by the above approved manufactures while still adhering to the 1917 rule.


JLewis,

If you have issues with the various primer sizes that could be used, then if you are shooting traditional class, and following along with what I seem to be hearing is your line of reasoning, everyone had better submit chamber casts from their rifle to the Schuetzenmeister before competing in that class to verify that their chamber and throating fully comply with the original Manufacturer’s specifications per the 1917 rule.
If someone has used a throating reamer to modify the chamber from the Manufacturer’s specs, do you feel the rifle can no longer be used in traditional class?
Is this where you really want to take things?

I agree with 40 Rod’s comment that traditional class does not equate with Amish class.

Easy way to solve the issue seems to be that if something is not already accepted as conforming with the 1917 rule, and you desire to use it in Traditional class, then do your research and provide your documentation supporting your position to the Schuetzenmeister for a decision about compliance.

PS: Don't think it would hurt things if you are planning on building a rifle (or having one built) to be used for traditional class, to submit your plans to the Schuetzenmeister to confirm compliance or for any needed revisions to your plans before spending a big chunk of change.

« Last Edit: Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:11pm by BP »  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #57 - Feb 1st, 2014 at 9:16pm
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I will stick with chizeling Willies historic recommendation.  If the rifle is on the bench and it looks like a traditional rifle and it smells like a traditional rifle and no one questions whether it's a traditional rifle. It falls under the "don't ask don't tell" policy. I say nothing.   Lips Sealed

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #58 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:15am
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BP I no longer compete in the Traditional Class by my choice in equipment, all though both of my rifles  are in the Traditional style my choice of action and cartridge for the 28 do not meet the rules and I use a non traditional scope on my 52 CPA 32-40 as well as the 28. What I was trying to do was to determine the intent of the cartrige rule in the traditional class based on both the manufacture requirement and the pre 1917 criteria as spelled out in the rules. In other words I would like to know where the line in the sand has been drawn to insure that we can properly preserve this class and it's history for future generations. The rules have become so liberal that last year a rifle that did not fit the design criteria took first place honors in the traditional class at the National event. As you might know by reading some of the posts here by some of those who were elected or have volunteered to over see the health and wefare of this organization have stated that the Traditional class our roots and the organizations mission statement in there opinion is nothing more than a token class now. All though I choose not to shoot in the class it is imperative that the rules be stringently adhered to, to insure that our true heritage is preserved. If we do not question what the true intent of the four specific rules are it will go from a token class to being historically incorrect and then non-existant and we are rapidly moving in that direction.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Feb 2nd, 2014 at 12:31am by J Louis »  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #59 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 7:13am
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John,

I agree that the traditional class is fading, so it's highly likely the roots of this sport will wither just as fast, and the shooters who pursue it are fading too. Our eyes are getting weaker, so we have to break away from traditional class and mount Targetspots, Unertls and other high resolution scopes to still attempt to score reasonably well and grab a possible win while we still can. The few remaining traditionally equipped rifles will outlast us all anyway. And since we don't seem to bring in young blood who can boost traditional class participation, well, there we are.
Guess it's human nature to accept the view that traditional will be a token class when fewer feel they can successfully participate in it.

As far as determining the intent of the cartridge rule in regards to the traditional class requirements, you've put the question forward, so we're pretty much stuck waiting for an official response from the powers that be. It's in their hands now, along with the rest of the ball of wax so to speak.

  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #60 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 8:34am
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We are back to the same old argument how Traditional is Traditional enough. If we keep going down the rabbit hole where only black powder is Traditional then what’s next? Is Goex not legal because it wasn’t manufactured in 1917? How bout those non-mercuric primers? SPG, no way bub.
  This usually boils down to “my way is Traditional yours isn’t.”
  What we need is an ASSRA Inquisition where a traveling auto du fe’ is held at each member local club. We could have sinners tearfully come forward confess their sins and toss their Millers in the bonfire. Followed by an execution or two.
Purity above practicality

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #61 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 11:57am
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Very well said BP, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #62 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 1:06pm
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40Rod it was a simple question that needs to be addressed, the organization made the rules and it should take the time to clearly define them. If they need to be revised to preserve the class then revise them least we loose the class all together. It is not a matter of my way or hit the hi way by individual thought nor by the discretion of each individual Schuetzen Meister. Its a matter of the organization stepping up to the plate to clearly define the rules in a manner that is clearly understood, without question or debate. Is that really asking to much from those that pay their dues and support the organization?

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #63 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 2:40pm
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WOW,
All this over a simple little primer and trying to get a handle on "the sprit of the rules"!

Yet, I hear no indignation regarding the CPA  Lips Sealed You realize that only three basic parts will interchange between a 44 1/2 and a CPA. The beech block, hammer (if you can even call that a basic part) and the lower tang/trigger.

I'm not against the CPA's use in Traditional but, it is clearly NOT a 44 1/2, rifle, as defined in the 4 catagorys that John always refers to. But, I do think it should have a clause in the rules like the scopes do. Even then, if that were done, the draw bolt stock mounting shouldn't be allowed.

Frank
« Last Edit: Feb 3rd, 2014 at 12:21pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #64 - Feb 2nd, 2014 at 4:28pm
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40_Rod,

To my way of thinking, the best way to keep from having to repeatedly go down a rabbit hole is to not have ever allowed the hole to get dug in the first place.
       Wink

  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #65 - Feb 3rd, 2014 at 1:07am
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BP again very well said.

Unfortunatly I can't help but think that hole might be a safe heaven from those issues, opps arguments that keep popping up as mentioned in 40Rods last post. I kind of got a kick out of his comments on BP, Goex, SPG, Non-Mercuric Primers and topping it off by saying "No Way Bub". Does that mean there might be a real issue with the rules or that he's above them? He spoke his peace on the mattet as he should but he should not look at others doing the same as being whiners. He also continues to think there are no issues and that everything is hunky dory with the T Class rules yet he might have just pointed out several that he would have issues with.

I am not sure what the burning of the Millers, Confessing Of Sins, Purity and Execution comments were all about but they do seem to make a mockery of the issues at hand or maybe it's us?

JLouis




  
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frnkeore
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #66 - Feb 3rd, 2014 at 4:08pm
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During this discussion, the small rifle primer issue was brought up regarding it's use in 32/40. Another forum member advised me that Marlin had small rifle primer cartridges made for their rifles, in 32/40, 38, 40 and 45 calibers. So, if there was any consern of the legality of using 30 American case for 32/40 here is the 1887 article written by Marlin to customers. Lots of other reading to be had also Smiley

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BP
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #67 - Feb 3rd, 2014 at 4:56pm
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Frank,

Thanks for the link.
Nicely done finding the info confirming that both primer sizes were used for some common cartridges prior to the 1917 rule cut-off date.
Should help the Schuetzenmeister to be able to issue a final decision and to provide for any updates needed for rules revision/clarification.
      Smiley

  

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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #68 - Feb 3rd, 2014 at 8:30pm
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I have some really old 32 Win Special cases with the small rifle primer which I use to make 32/40  and  32/35 cases.   Ledball
  
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Mal
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #69 - Feb 4th, 2014 at 1:08am
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Bohemian way,
                     G'day Charles , did you ever find out where you can get your hands on a reamer for the 30/30 Wesson? I seem to think you original question got rather lost!! CH4 have the loading dies in stock,Let me know if you find a reamer.Im hoping to build one on a small Martini,I have a breach seating system that works quite well on them.
      
        Cheers From Aust, Mal.
  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #70 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 11:14pm
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Ouch! and I suspect that is with a fixed pilot.

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I think John Holland is/was also looking for one.

HTH

  
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Re: WTF 30-30 Wesson dimensions
Reply #71 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 11:01am
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LIKE:  "How many Angels will fit on the head of a pin"
beltfed/arnie
  
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