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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) remington hepburn help needed (Read 3862 times)
scharfe
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remington hepburn help needed
May 17th, 2017 at 10:25pm
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please help me understand what I am looking at here. mainly the stock configuration.
  
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oughtsix
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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #1 - May 18th, 2017 at 9:18pm
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Can't believe someone more knowledgeable the me has not responded.   My expertise says it  sure is pretty.

  According to Rowe's book,    The forearm is a high grade forearm  used on  B and C grades.  The shotgun buttstock  looks like short & midrange ( short range Creedmore) rifle.

The double set triggers, imho,  would be more consistent with an off hand rifle

What is the sight under the tape?  What caliber and  do the numbers on the stock, forearm , etc  match? What  is sticking out behind the trigger guard?

-06
« Last Edit: May 18th, 2017 at 9:23pm by oughtsix »  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #2 - May 18th, 2017 at 10:14pm
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rifle is in an auction this summer. the only additional info is that it is a .40 2 1/2. I too without rowe's book am at a loss. stocks seem "creedmoor like" triggers seem more offhand rifle like. if the numbers match maybe it was someone's idea of the ultimate bench gun ?
  
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marlinguy
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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #3 - May 23rd, 2017 at 4:28pm
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It appears to be a Midrange Creedmoor rifle, but with special order double set triggers. Since Creedmoor rifles had to have single triggers, it would not be legal for that, but it's a Hepburn, so they were too late for Creedmoor matches anyway.
It's also a pretty late Hepburn with that style forearm tip.
  

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scharfe
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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #4 - May 23rd, 2017 at 5:31pm
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thanks. I am a little weak on hepburns, I have only owned 1 and it wasn't anything like this.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #5 - May 23rd, 2017 at 6:13pm
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scharfe wrote on May 23rd, 2017 at 5:31pm:
thanks. I am a little weak on hepburns, I have only owned 1 and it wasn't anything like this.


Hope you win it! That style buttplate is much more comfortable than the standard buttplate! The std. plate hurts with anything slightly warm.
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #6 - Jun 6th, 2017 at 7:35am
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while the great creedmoor matches ended early, the long range style (800,900, 1nd 1000yds) continued until 1912.
the creedmoor range was long gone by this time.
sea girt was one of the last ranges where this happened.
the long range any rifle had to be under 10 lb with a single trigger no less than 3 lb i think.
not sure of mid range rifles.
the hepburn could have been used .
the 40 2 1/2 was a popular mid range chambering in many brands of rifle.
the rem loading was often referred to as the 40/65 rem, and loaded as described.
trajectories of American hunting rifles, open library describes such a rifle being tested, and it was shot dirty.
should you get this rifle, and its chamber be an original pp one, please do not destroy history by rechambering it to take greasers.
I have measured a chamber cast from an original Hepburn 40 2 1/2, and a groove diameter bullet would not chamber in fixed ammo.
it also had a 4 degree transition angle.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #7 - Jun 6th, 2017 at 9:52am
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thanks all ! bruce especially.
  
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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #8 - Jun 6th, 2017 at 10:23am
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bruce moulds wrote on Jun 6th, 2017 at 7:35am:
I have measured a chamber cast from an original Hepburn 40 2 1/2, and a groove diameter bullet would not chamber in fixed ammo.

bruce.


Have observed the same in several BP rifles, and read that use of an "undersized" (relative to groove dia.) bullet guaranteed reliable chambering even in a fouled chamber; when fired, the bullet was supposed to "bump up" to fit the grooves.  When shooting smokeless, such a bullet-fit mismatch obviously presents difficulties, and I had planned to have a Ballard I once owned rechambered like you warned against doing; but like a thousand other projects, I never got around to having it done. 
  
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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #9 - Jun 6th, 2017 at 10:38pm
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redsetter,
please don't be a heathen vandal.
doing so would be paramout to supping with the devil.
just learn to shoot bp and pp like it was designed to do.
failing that replace the barrel and keep the old one.
we are merely the custodians of these rifles, and they deserve better than to be butchered biy infidels.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #10 - Jun 23rd, 2017 at 2:13pm
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Sold for $1400  + ~20%+ shipping and taxes if applicable.   Hope it is going to a good home.
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #11 - Jun 23rd, 2017 at 2:45pm
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Not a bad price on either end of the transaction. Will be a nice hunting rifle, but the original twist will likely be too slow. "Might" stabilize a 400gr bullet, which would be enough.
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #12 - Jun 23rd, 2017 at 3:08pm
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I wonder what that brass looking addition is on the barrel in the front sight dovetail area? Maybe some adapter to allow a owner to put a 3/8" dovetail sight in there? Or a scope mount, muzzle rest????
Guessing whatever it was, it kept the price down for bidders.
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #13 - Jun 23rd, 2017 at 4:20pm
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I think that was tape  holding the sight on,  RIA  said it was missing a spring  and had the wrong screw in the tang.  Hopefully it looked better than the description, but overall description was "poor.... metal  deeply pitted...."    I'm sure it will look good  when redone,  or we'll see parts on ebay
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #14 - Jun 23rd, 2017 at 6:48pm
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The "OG" code rating on condition is not specific. It doesn't necessarily have all those things wrong with it or I'm sure RIA wouldn't bother with it.
I think this rifle rated such as it needs a screw, a rear sight elevator, and whatever problem the front sight has.
It's no beauty, but onsite bidders had a good look and more than one thought it has some value.
Interesting configuration.
Aaron
« Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2017 at 6:57pm by Rebel »  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #15 - Jun 23rd, 2017 at 7:18pm
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The screw protruding through the lower tang told me it likely was missing, and someone put a smaller screw through the hole and likely a nut on the bottom. If the threads were good, that would be an easy fix.
Front sight might be a windage adjustable, and the globe missing. So maybe the tape was to retain the base and adjusting screw together?
Hard to see a double set trigger in that configuration, and not think it was a bargain for under $1700 total out the door.
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #16 - Jun 24th, 2017 at 9:37am
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Should not be a problem for parts. Looks like Numrich has the repro windage-adjust front sight back in stock (might have to buy all the parts and put together yourself - not a big deal) and DZ Arms will have all the needed screws (that's whatever they came up with for the main-spring screw sticking out of the lower tang - looks to be much smaller than the original, so there is hope for the threads) and any other parts required. Looks like it will clean up into a beautiful rifle.
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #17 - Jun 24th, 2017 at 10:50pm
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SSShooter wrote on Jun 24th, 2017 at 9:37am:
Should not be a problem for parts. Looks like Numrich has the repro windage-adjust front sight back in stock.


But are those new front sights the same wide dovetail the originals had? Or did they go standard 3/8" on the new sights?
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #18 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 7:54pm
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"Sold for $1400" - someone got a very good deal.
  
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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #19 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 8:09pm
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marlinguy wrote on Jun 24th, 2017 at 10:50pm:
SSShooter wrote on Jun 24th, 2017 at 9:37am:
Should not be a problem for parts. Looks like Numrich has the repro windage-adjust front sight back in stock.


But are those new front sights the same wide dovetail the originals had? Or did they go standard 3/8" on the new sights?

Not sure. Mine is with Steve Durren to be installed on the new barrel he is fitting to one of my Hepburns. It is supposed to be an accurate repro, but a call to Numrich might get you the answer. Think Deadeye Bly (John) also has one. You could ask him.
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #20 - Jun 29th, 2017 at 9:27am
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I bought quite a few NOS Numrich parts from the Rolling Block late 1990's parts they got from Remington. Building a pistol grip RB using the parts, and so far the parts are all correct for early BP Rolling Blocks. They were listed as "out of stock" on some front sight parts, and I got the last set of tang sight parts. Hopefully they kept the front sight the same as old dovetail size, but I'm betting they went 3/8".
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #21 - Jun 29th, 2017 at 1:20pm
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It looks like the base might be present.
Aaron
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #22 - Jun 29th, 2017 at 1:35pm
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marlinguy wrote on Jun 29th, 2017 at 9:27am:
Hopefully they kept the front sight the same as old dovetail size, but I'm betting they went 3/8".

Call or PM Steve Durren and ask. Feel sure he wouldn't mind measuring the dovetail on mine as long as you are not in a hurry. He has to cut the dovetail in my barrel over the next several weeks, so not a big deal for him (says the guy who doesn't have to dig it out and measure). They are sold as 'original', so would be interesting to know.
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #23 - Jun 29th, 2017 at 2:04pm
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Would someone post a link to the sight parts please?
Aaron
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #24 - Jul 1st, 2017 at 4:38pm
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Would someone post a link to the sight parts please?
Aaron
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #25 - Jul 1st, 2017 at 5:31pm
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Rebel wrote on Jul 1st, 2017 at 4:38pm:
Would someone post a link to the sight parts please?
Aaron


The sight parts aren't separated out Aaron. They can be found here under the #1 Rolling Block parts. Items #24 thru #32.:

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #26 - Jul 1st, 2017 at 8:47pm
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I bought one of the sights in parts and got it assembled OK. It's kinda tight but I figure it will work loose. It's the large dovetail, about .450". I can't measure it, it's on a barrel already. I've got several sight inserts ordered from Distant Thunder. I've been told they were the Axtell sights???
  
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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #27 - Jul 1st, 2017 at 9:16pm
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Thanks guys,
Aaron
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #28 - Jul 2nd, 2017 at 11:08am
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Originals can vary a fair amount in Remington rifles! Mine are anywhere from .451" to .461"! So if it's the smaller end of the spectrum, do a careful check before spending the money!
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #29 - Jul 2nd, 2017 at 2:49pm
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If a bit too small a little bit of work with a file and some shim-stock will will make it fit nice & tight.
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #30 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 7:33pm
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Sold for $1400  + ~20%+ shipping and taxes if applicable.   Hope it is going to a good home

I hope so too, I bought it and it arrived today.
It seems to be an honest midrange Creedmoor, according to what I read in Rowes book.
The barrel, receiver (actually lower tang) forearm and buttstock all match, SN# 5086.
The forearm has a hard rubber tip and the buttplate is also hard rubber, which is correct according to Rowe.
If it was just a shotgun butt, the plate would be metal, Rowe says.
The caliber is marked correctly for a Midrange Creedmoor, 40 x 2 1/2
The wood cleaned up very well, the checkering if fairly smooth though. The buttplate is un-marred.
The trigger return spring was installed on top of, instead of underneath the main spring. (see Pic).
The screw is too long and undersized, but when I assembled it "correctly" it holds. Luckily, the tang hole seems to have good threads and should be ok with the right screw.
The front sight dovetail is butchered, looks like Farkenparker cut it lower to try to make an unknown object that looks like a sight base with a 3/8" dovetail fit. (pics of dovetail and object)
The finish on the rifle isn't as bad as it looks in the zoomed pic.
If you know what that object is, please post.
He also put a 3/8" dovetail in the barrel for what looks like a pre-64 Win 70 rear sight, missing elevator.
Took off the forearm, Parkenfarker kluged a kind of leaf spring to substitute for the missing lever spring.
Pic below of the markings, Rowe says the V&W mean vernier and windgage sights, which is also correct for a Midrange Creedmoor B grade.
I don't know what the S.T. means, but he other markings are the rub.
The barrel has been re-rifled, probably by EKT & Co, maybe it's 41.
The shiny beautiful rifling is a clone of Pope, left hand, narrow grooves, ETC. I'll try to get a pic. The twist is very slow, round ball slow.
More later, Aaron
« Last Edit: Jul 28th, 2017 at 5:02am by Rebel »  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #31 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 7:42pm
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Rowe says 50 -100 Midrange Creedmores were made, he's heard of 20.
None of the ones in his book are full octagon or DST, so this one is rare and perhaps unique.
I can fix it ok, but should I reline? Or reline and re-finish?
Have to give this some thought. With all it's problems, I'm still very happy to have such a rare gun.
poor pics of rifling below.
Aaron
« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2017 at 7:59pm by Rebel »  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #32 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 8:22pm
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Re-Barrel it and set the original barrel aside one could never get another original to the rifle and it might add some future value to the rifle or at a minimum keep it all original it not already having been screwed with. If so no future harm can be done by your choice so then go for what ever your heart might desire.

JLouis
  
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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #33 - Jul 27th, 2017 at 9:03pm
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Interesting old Hepburn Aaron! I'd use a mill to open up the dovetail a little larger to clean up Bubba's work, and then either fill it and cut a common 3/8" dovetail into the filler. Or make a filler that sits into the newly cleaned up dovetail, and above the top barrel flat, with a 3/8" dovetail in it. I have one of these I found at a gun show to go from a .467" dovetail to a 3/8" dovetail.
The previous method I mentioned is what I did to my Rolling Block that Bubba cut with a hacksaw to a nearly 3/4" dovetail!
Here's a picture of the repaired Bubba'd front dovetail:
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I personally wouldn't change the barrel too quickly, as I'd want to see if I could find out who "EKT & Co." might be? Provenance of these old guns is important, even as changed, if it's done long ago.
I'd start with the book, "American Gunsmiths" and look for gunsmiths with names ending in "T" and the initials EK or names starting in E with middle initial K.  Might help narrow the search, and then find out those who did reboring later than the Hepburn's birth date.
« Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2017 at 9:16pm by marlinguy »  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #34 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 7:21am
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Congrats Aaron,  After hearing your assessment of it I wish I had stayed in the bidding.  Look forward to seeing some Class II scores posted with it.   

-06

  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #35 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 7:59am
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Thanks guys,
I ordered a copy of American Gunsmiths.
I sure do miss having machine tools, but transporting a Bridgeport from Connecticut just wasn't possible. I'll find someone competent in Florida I hope. Shoulda bought a bigger house.
I tried to measure the rifling with a dial verniers last night, .405 lands and .430 grooves, (measured from muzzle) does that seem possible?
I'll find a .429 (44 cal) pistol bullet and slug it through. A piece of 40-60 Maynard brass won't quite chamber.
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #36 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 11:00am
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I had a bad experience when slugging a bore decades ago using bullets Aaron. Since then I only slug them using pure lead muzzleloader balls. A box is pretty cheap, and once I slug a bore the ball goes back in the box to use in a smaller bore later. Once I use it on something like a .32-40, then it goes in my lead pot to melt down.
The soft lead balls are very easy to slug bores with. I place them on the muzzle and tap them down with a brass hammer. Once they start in a bit, I use a brass punch to get them the rest the way into the bore. Then just tap them out with a cleaning rod and measure.
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #37 - Jul 28th, 2017 at 2:01pm
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Thanks Vall,
I have some round balls from a Ruger Old Army, I'll use those if I can find them.
Aaron
  

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #38 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 3:24pm
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Looks like the E.K.T. &Co might be Edward K Tryon Jr., pretty famous gunsmith family, and later retailers.
My info is sketchy as to when the stopped the gunmaking and just did retail and marketing, I have a book coming from Cornell that might help.
Aaron
  

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marlinguy
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Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #39 - Aug 13th, 2017 at 6:49pm
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That's great Aaron!
  

Vall
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SSShooter
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Re: remington hepburn help needed
Reply #40 - Sep 7th, 2017 at 11:17am
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Rebel wrote on Jul 28th, 2017 at 7:59am:
Thanks guys,
I sure do miss having machine tools, but transporting a Bridgeport from Connecticut just wasn't possible. I'll find someone competent in Florida I hope.
I tried to measure the rifling with a dial verniers last night, .405 lands and .430 grooves, (measured from muzzle) does that seem possible?
I'll find a .429 (44 cal) pistol bullet and slug it through. A piece of 40-60 Maynard brass won't quite chamber.

Get in touch with Tom Klinger, who posts here infrequently. He is outside of Orlando and can likely help, even if only to put you in touch with a good gunsmith/machinist in FL. Great looking Hepburn.
  

Glenn
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