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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) cc johnson rifle (Read 4703 times)
j_c_johnson
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #45 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 9:10am
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As Charles C Johnson's grandson I will try and clarify some things.
First, CCJ did not make stocks. He occasionally fitted factory replacement stocks and semi inletted bolt action stocks. 
He fitted barrels in a wide variety of calibers, but only relined .22  rimfire or .22 centerfire calibers.
The most popular caliber was .22-3000 and the 2R Lovell, followed by .218 Bee and Mashburn Bee, .219 Donaldson Wasp, and .22 Hornet.
As to compiling the records, they are on 3X5 cards and sorted into envelopes by year from 1932 to 1972 and averge 300 + jobs per year. Some cards are missing due to mice , but they are now in a mouseproof container.
One of my goals is to input the iinformation into a searchable database. Life keeps getting in the way of doing so.
Respectfully,
Jerry C Johnson
« Last Edit: Jul 5th, 2017 at 2:10pm by j_c_johnson »  
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marlinguy
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #46 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 10:47am
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Thanks Jerry! Confirms what I suspected.
  

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fullchoke
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #47 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 12:03pm
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It would be interesting to see the 22 cartridge development, based on the popularity of each, by how many he built over those 40 years.
I haven't looked into values of CC Johnson's rifles, but seeing that they are being counterfeit, must indicate a premium is being sought. Because of everything being faked these days, provenance adds value and becomes necessary. That provenance can be charged for, there would be demand for this service. Like I said, I don't know the increase in value a rifle has by CC Johnson having worked on it, but depending on that premium, Jerry Johnson stand to make some money for this service. I for one would pay for an official letter. I think it would be cool to have. Being reimbursed for your efforts may give motivation to compiling those records. Good luck and Thanks again!
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #48 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 4:35pm
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Jerry's text says that his granddad fitted barrels for a wide variety of cartridges but ONLY relined for the ,22s    so that 32-40 and others might well have been a re-barrel job and not counterfeit.
  

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j_c_johnson
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #49 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm
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Statesrights indicated his rifle was relined from .38-55 to .32-40.
Additionally the number under the barrel begins with  73 which would be 1973 a year after CCJ ceased business due to health issues. It also has a consecutive number about 500 higher than the highest annual job number ever done by CCJ. I have been told there was a C  C JOHNSON (no relation )  doing gunsmithing in Bakersfield  CA. Might be one of his.
  
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fullchoke
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #50 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 7:02pm
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If we knew what value a CC Johnson rifle commands over another rifle that's similar and unmarked, we could then see if there is any reason to attempt a counterfeit. A marginal difference  would not be worth the trouble, but I think that since the name CC Johnson is respected today and the fact that my rifle was special ordered from someone in California in 1947 makes me think that CC Johnson's work was respected back then too. We are in the collecting ss rifles forum, can someone who collects customized single shots give their opinion.

Thanks
  
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j_c_johnson
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #51 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 7:22pm
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Among CCJ's customers was James Grant who wrote the "Single Shot Rifles" series of books and J Bushnell Smith. He had customers in most of the lower 48, and advertised in the American Rifleman classifieds.
His photo and a short comment about him appeared in the late 1940'S "Wildcat Cartridges" (a different book than the current two volume one).
  
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marlinguy
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #52 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 10:24am
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As a fancier of custom built schuetzen rifles, I couldn't begin to put a price premium on any custom built gun, regardless of the maker. There's just too many variables to say it's a certain amount, or percentage. Every custom has to be examined and appraised for the total of it's features, condition, and what provenance comes with it beyond who made the barrel or gun.
Wish it was as simple as saying a CC Johnson, Pope, Schoyen, Zischang, etc. had a particular percentage added to it's value.
I would add that anyone owning any custom maker's gun(s) should do as much homework as possible to document the gun and the maker! The thicker your file is on the maker, the gun, or previous owners, the higher it's value will be now and in the future. I've seen many desirable guns that left owner's hands with little or no provenance ever acquired! I've spent months or even years documenting some I own, and was puzzled why previous owners didn't think enough of a gun with a maker or owner's name on them to take the time to document it?

But having two CC Johnsons making guns and marking them similarly throws a wrench in the works. Those that JC Johnson can check and confirm provenance to his grandfather, will obviously garner more money, but can't say how much more.
  

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fullchoke
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #53 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 1:40pm
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Marlinguy, everything you say makes total, logical sense.
The gun Statesrights bought could have been worked on by a different CC Johnson, thus not considered a fake, but if it was faked and without any provenance attached..... What I'm asking is without anything except the name stamped on the barrel, is there enough reason to do it?

When I bought my rifle, I foolishly didn't think anything about counterfeiting. I do think having CC Johnson on the rifle made it more attractive to me, it implied higher quality. I bought it on more of an impulse that it was worth it, and if it wasn't I still liked it. If there is counterfeiting people like me would be a target.

Has anyone run across any other counterfeit CC Johnson rifles?

Thanks
  
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marlinguy
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #54 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 2:50pm
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No offense meant to CC Johnson, as I'm a big fan of the barrel work he did! But at this point in time I believe that his name on a barrel will add a little to the value, but not like the added value of the most famous barrel or gun makers of earlier times.
I think if all things are equal, a CC Johnson marked barrel, that JC Johnson can document, will certainly be worth more than a no name barrel. I know I'd pay some extra for equal guns with one being a CC Johnson. But it would have to be a .22 or I wouldn't give it a 2nd look.

As for fakes. There are numerous cases of fakery in old guns with famous maker's names. Most can be identified quickly to an experienced eye, as they rarely get the rifling correct, or mess up on barrel markings. A close examination of the markings can often reveal they are engraved, and not rollstamped. All the famous makers had their own rollstamp, so an engraved marking is suspicious. It may be the marking was restored, but I'd still be suspicious, and hesitant to pay much for it.
  

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j_c_johnson
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #55 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 4:27pm
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Another thing to consider is that an individual may have purchased a CCJohnson rifle for the action and sold the barrel which someone then used on their own project without removing the CCJ markings.
I have had several instances where the job number on the barrel came back to a different serial action or completely different action type.
Provenance is most helpful if you are selling a custom rifle.
  
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #56 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 6:33pm
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This may be of interest to this discussion.

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Aaron
« Last Edit: Jul 6th, 2017 at 6:39pm by Rebel »  

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and supporting factual or anecdotal evidence.
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fullchoke
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #57 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 11:13am
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I'll summarize what I think this thread has told me and you guys can correct me if need be. CC Johnson was a very respected gunsmith from the 40's-60's. I have not heard of anyone more renown building 22 cal custom rifles of this time period. His name was known coast to coast. Another gunsmith may have tried to capitalize on his reputation, by using CC Johnson on their work, but it was not an effort to counterfeit, but more of an effort to tailgate and possibly confuse customers to obtain more business. There may be a premium on valid customized 22 cal rifles by CC Johnson but it is not sufficient to attract any interest from counterfeiters. Collectibility is possible and could be enhanced by the fact that his build records are known. With that provenance the collectibility of his name and work as a 22 cal gunsmith could be built upon, and not fade away.
I would like to again thank everyone who has contributed. Those pictures are especially interesting.
  
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j_c_johnson
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #58 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 11:46am
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As CCJ's grandson, I find it somewhat amazing that 45 years after his final retirement and 41 years after his death there is a small but regular interest in him and his work. I receive around 25 requests a year for info on one of his rifles and 5 to 10 for info about him.
Pope, Niedner, Ackley and Eric Johnson are much more widely known, but CCJ did have a loyal following.
  
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Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #59 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 12:28pm
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Taking myself as an example, I became interested in finding out about CC Johnson because I had a rifle with his name on it. He was rather prolific, he had a niche in 22 cal, and he did quality work, many of his examples remain, so there is interest in him. The interest could be someone trying to promote additional value in a piece or someone with a curiosity in what they have. In my situation the stock is loose and the screws attaching it are not. So I need to figure out how much I should spend to correct this problem and keep the rifle as original as possible at the same time. In my case the rifle's value comes into consideration. I think that if his work appreciates in value, there will be less dismantling of his rifles, whether for parts, remodeling, rechambering, etc., because they will become collectible. They represent a certain period in customizing the 22 cal wildcats and they are HIS work.
  
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