Page Index Toggle Pages: [1]  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) cc johnson rifle (Read 3847 times)
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
cc johnson rifle
Jun 19th, 2017 at 12:18pm
Print Post  
Hello, I'm new to this site and have a few questions about this rifle that I recently bought. I sent an inquiry to JC Johnson about it and I have a few general questions I would like to post here. It is a Winchester High Wall with a heavy bull barrel that has M-BEE stamped on the barrel. The second line says CC Johnson in smaller letters. Is it correct to believe that the rifle is chambered for the Mashburn Bee?
The woodworking on the rifle is unique and I would not want to replace it, but would I devalue the rifle if I had it worked on to give it a better fit and finish? Right now woodwork doesn't come close to matching the metal work quality. I'm not sure yet what can be done. I bought this rifle because I liked the look of it and  want to keep it period correct. I'm new to collecting anything like this and I'm not sure how important originally is on a custom rifle from a renown gunsmith. Originality is important to me and I don't want to compromise it, but the woodwork is crude and I think it detracts from the rifle. What do you guys think?
I also would like to find out more about CC Johnson and the rifles he built. Were the rifles totally custom order or were they made up customized actions and then made to fit the buyer? I was thinking it would be interesting to see if there were other rifles made like this one.
Thanks for your thoughts and responses!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 8923
Location: The West of coarse
Joined: May 29th, 2006
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #1 - Jun 19th, 2017 at 12:33pm
Print Post  
Welcome to the forum. Without a picture we are blind.


           Joe.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Redsetter
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2019
Location: New York
Joined: Aug 6th, 2013
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #2 - Jun 19th, 2017 at 1:14pm
Print Post  
fullchoke wrote on Jun 19th, 2017 at 12:18pm:
...the woodwork is crude and I think it detracts from the rifle.


Sounds more like some previous owner's do-it-yourself job, in which case replacing the wood constitutes no crime.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
scharfe
Full Member
***
Offline


A good plan today beats
a perfect plan tomorrow.

Posts: 112
Location: ny / pa line
Joined: Dec 18th, 2006
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #3 - Jun 19th, 2017 at 2:47pm
Print Post  
welcome. lots of info here, and great people too.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Mike65
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 180
Joined: May 4th, 2004
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #4 - Jun 19th, 2017 at 4:00pm
Print Post  
Welcome.

I think that you'll find with a few searches here on the forum that CC seldom, if ever, did any woodwork at all and it was farmed out to others.  CC concerned himself with the metal work only and did lots of re-line jobs.

Mike
  

We are seldom as smart as we think nor as dumb as others believe.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cleanprone
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 22
Joined: Dec 17th, 2015
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #5 - Jun 19th, 2017 at 4:32pm
Print Post  
CC Johnson rifles are not common but Ohio probably has more than most areas.  A friend has two, Lo-Wall and Hi-Wall,  beautifully stocked in classic style.  My Lo-Wall Hornet has 4-groove cut rifled barrel, very heavy most likely by Charlie Diller, and very accurate.  The rifle has straight grain walnut in varmint style, probably Fajen.  Metal work superb.  Wood is plain and well fitted.  I'm using a 2 inch 12X Unertl Ultra-Varmint, calibrated head and get a lot of interest when I get to the range.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 7283
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #6 - Jun 19th, 2017 at 4:36pm
Print Post  
You'll never hurt any old gun by making amateurish wood fitting look better! If you can do so without replacing the stocks, you'll save money. But if you have to replace them, then it still wont hurt the value if they're poorly fitted.
The real value in the gun you own is the barrel and action. If the wood was nicely fitted, and high quality, then I'd say making repairs need to be done carefully to keep the gun's history. But sounds like that's not the case here.
  

Vall
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #7 - Jun 19th, 2017 at 6:29pm
Print Post  
Thanks guys for the welcome.
I have read online that the woodworking on CC Johnson rifles was noticeably inferior to the metal work. Maybe CC Johnson sold barreled actions and the stocking could be done by the customer. The metal work was prepared for the stock that is on it. I will try to get some pictures.

Thanks again
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 7283
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #8 - Jun 19th, 2017 at 7:09pm
Print Post  
I had a CC Johnson High Wall in .22LR once, and the custom stocks were the nicest job I've ever owned on a custom single shot. Typical "varmint rifle" style of the 40's or 50's, but very high grade wood, and wonderful fleur de lis pattern, and finely checkered. I wish I'd never let it go, but I was transfixed on schuetzen style single shots, and it didn't fit my collection.
Unsure if CC Johnson did much stock work, but sure his nephew could answer that question.

What part of Oregon are you located? I'm in East Portland.
  

Vall
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #9 - Jun 19th, 2017 at 7:29pm
Print Post  
Tualatin area
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FITZ-G
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 71
Joined: Jun 4th, 2015
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #10 - Jun 19th, 2017 at 8:11pm
Print Post  
fullchoke, when CC Johnsons nephew showed up here announcing he had the Shop notes. He said what he needed was information stamped on the Barrel under the Forend. From this he could document year of change and caliber and some other matter that I do not recall at this time. I own two CC Jonson barreled
rifles, one a Borchardt in 22-3000 sleeved by him. I removed the sleeve and found it had been soldered into an original Sharps .45 caliber bore. It was or is bright and nearly perfect so we sleeved the Chamber back to .45 X 2 4/10" and it became a very good shooter. The other is also a 22-3000 but was a fresh barrel I have done nothing with yet. I am not sure but at some point I heard he had transferred his shop notes to the ASSRA archives. Worth asking the Archivist. He will generate copies of Data for a minimal price. HTH Regards,
FITZ-G. Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
uscra112
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1989
Location: SE Ohio Hill Country
Joined: May 7th, 2007
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #11 - Jun 19th, 2017 at 9:47pm
Print Post  
fullchoke wrote on Jun 19th, 2017 at 6:29pm:
Thanks guys for the welcome.
I have read online that the woodworking on CC Johnson rifles was noticeably inferior to the metal work. Maybe CC Johnson sold barreled actions and the stocking could be done by the customer. The metal work was prepared for the stock that is on it. I will try to get some pictures.
Thanks again


Reaching back into memory of articles I've read about Johnson, I have the impression that he did not do any woodwork himself.  Either farmed it out or left it to the customer. 

Charles Landis in his book "Twenty Two Caliber Varmint Rifles" mentions that, in the heyday of the .22 Lovell, he was putting out over 200 barrel jobs a year, so I'm inclined to think that he would not have had time to do wood as well.
  

Jack of All Trades - Retired
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cleanprone
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 22
Joined: Dec 17th, 2015
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #12 - Jun 19th, 2017 at 10:06pm
Print Post  
Nice article in ASSRA journal about ten years back re:  CC Johnson which states he did no wood work.  Not handy right now but will post date.  Believe grandson has shop notes and he follows this forum, he needs a work number from the rifle, mine is stamped on the bottom tang.  I believe the notes include date, work performed.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #13 - Jun 20th, 2017 at 12:33am
Print Post  
There is a number under the forearm. It includes numbers and letters. I sent that to JC Johnson. I was thinking it might be a date code of some sort. I don't see a serial # on the rifle. The number is normally on the lower tang on a High Wall, but that area was worked on and I don't see a complete number.
I'm glad the stock was not part of his work as I want that worked on or replaced.

Thanks
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 7283
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #14 - Jun 20th, 2017 at 9:38am
Print Post  
fullchoke,
We have our OAC collector gun show this coming Sunday morning, so if you get out early you could bring it by the show? It's 7:00 a.m. to 11:30 a.m.
I have a couple tables there every month, and will have a small Rolling Block display this Sunday. $3 entry, and free parking, so well worth the drive from Tualatin.
Directions can be found in the OAC link at the bottom of my posts.
  

Vall
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
westerner
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 8923
Location: The West of coarse
Joined: May 29th, 2006
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #15 - Jun 20th, 2017 at 10:18am
Print Post  
Gabi shooting her CCJohnson rifle.


           Joe.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schutzenbob
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1159
Location: Nightingale, California
Joined: Oct 24th, 2005
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #16 - Jun 20th, 2017 at 11:24am
Print Post  
C. C. Johnson from Halp's website;
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #17 - Jun 20th, 2017 at 4:35pm
Print Post  
The picture is great! So much more real than just his name. Thank you.

I would like to make it to the show but this weekend doesn't look too good.

Thanks
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4077
Location: Berrien Springs, MI
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #18 - Jun 21st, 2017 at 7:44pm
Print Post  
Jerry has his grandfathers shop records and is usually happy to try to research rifles with the data submitted to him. 
There was another---  Johnson;  Eric, who was a top tier competitive 22 rimfire rifle shooter and builder.  If my memory is correct HIS records are the ones in the ASSRA archives.

CC did not usually build stocks and when he did they were functionally utilitarian but not of the quality that equals his metal work.  When you see a finely stocked CC Johnson rifle it was done by someone else. after all he was a highly skilled metal worker.   In the Springfield OH shooting club CC belonged to there was also a local guy who was a highly skilled amateur stock builder who produced really elegant stocks for a small number of CC's rifles for some of their fellow club members.

If it were me  .  .  .  .  .    VBG !!!
   I'd consider preserving the original stock as it is; and completely restocking the rifle with a replacement stock that will suit your own needs and tastes.
Replacement stocks are available in unfinished form from a number of vendors. Most can be completed without too much difficulty using common tools with a bit of elbow grease and personal commitment.  I'm sure our fellow members can make recommendations

EDIT:    ANY GUESS WHAT KIND OF RIFLE CC IS WORKING ON IN THAT PHOTO???

« Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2017 at 12:25pm by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

sacred cows make the best burger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schutzenbob
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1159
Location: Nightingale, California
Joined: Oct 24th, 2005
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #19 - Jun 22nd, 2017 at 10:50pm
Print Post  
C. C. Johnson's shop;
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bent_Ramrod
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 806
Location: Southern Arizona
Joined: Feb 8th, 2006
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #20 - Jun 23rd, 2017 at 11:36am
Print Post  
Wow!  I'm green with envy! Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 7283
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #21 - Jun 23rd, 2017 at 3:10pm
Print Post  
Great shop picture! Love the common shaft, and the cleanliness of his shop!
  

Vall
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #22 - Jun 24th, 2017 at 9:41am
Print Post  
To actually see the place, the machinery, along with the builder of my rifle.....now that is special!

Great Picture!! Thank you Schutzenbob for posting it!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
calledflyer
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1507
Joined: Mar 9th, 2015
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #23 - Jun 24th, 2017 at 1:26pm
Print Post  
For grins, you could enlarge the calendar on the far wall and learn the time the photo was taken and compare it to the info you may receive from the grandson. Who knows, it may be when your rifle was in the shop and..  well, you get the idea. Have fun.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bill Lawrence
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 207
Joined: Mar 17th, 2014
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #24 - Jun 24th, 2017 at 2:39pm
Print Post  
The photo is captioned "January, 1948" and a Google-check establishes that the wall calendar corresponds to that date.  Thanks for the suggestion calledflyer.

Bill Lawrence
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
calledflyer
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1507
Joined: Mar 9th, 2015
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #25 - Jun 24th, 2017 at 2:47pm
Print Post  
Heh,heh.... maybe I ought to do a little sleuthing of my own. Like, reading the stuff on the pages here.  Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4077
Location: Berrien Springs, MI
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #26 - Jun 24th, 2017 at 9:09pm
Print Post  
Thats about the time My CC Johnson gun was in the shop.  its a beautifully stocked martini by that local craftsman, with a CC worked over action, and carefully fitted PH 22rf match barrel.  It was built for a local dentist, and the barrel has some interesting platinum wire inlays the dentist/owner probably did.
  

sacred cows make the best burger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #27 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 8:37pm
Print Post  
Sorry it took so long to get a few pictures, but life got in the way. I wanted to clean up the rifle first, but no time. I took off the forearm to get the code for JC Johnson, but he hasn't replied yet. The rifle is packed with grease that I want to clean out and it should look a lot better. I like the sights, which is what drew me to the rifle in the 1st place. The rear says Lyman. I didn't see anything on the front, but I didn't look too hard. I would bet they are a set.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #28 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 8:38pm
Print Post  
no2
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #29 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 8:39pm
Print Post  
no3
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #30 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 8:39pm
Print Post  
no4
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #31 - Jun 28th, 2017 at 8:42pm
Print Post  
no5  Seems to only let me post 1 photo at a time, but I'm a newb here.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
cleanprone
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 22
Joined: Dec 17th, 2015
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #32 - Jul 1st, 2017 at 12:23pm
Print Post  
Fullchoke- that should clean up well, nice with the close coupled triggers.  That is the identical two piece stock set that is on my ccjohnson Hornet.  Out of curiosity what is you barrel length?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #33 - Jul 1st, 2017 at 4:29pm
Print Post  
My inquiry to JC Johnson was answered today. Thank you! The rifle was accepted 10/8/1947 and sent out 6/21/1948. My rifle was in the shop when the shop picture(posted here in this thread) was taken in 1/1948. How cool is that! It was re-barreled to 218 Mashburn Bee with a 1 1/16x 7/8x 26" 16 twist Buhmiller blank. The cost was $45. It was shipped to Pacific City, CA. CC Johnson must have had a reputation that went coast to coast. This is very interesting to me as this is my 1st and only custom gun.
« Last Edit: Jul 1st, 2017 at 5:01pm by fullchoke »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 7283
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #34 - Jul 1st, 2017 at 5:35pm
Print Post  
Great info, and always neat to have a gun that has traceable provenance. But now you're going to be looking for similar guns forever!
I love old single shots by custom gun makers!
  

Vall
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Statesrights
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 39
Location: Virginia
Joined: May 3rd, 2016
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #35 - Jul 2nd, 2017 at 10:18pm
Print Post  
Interesting thread to me. I've got a Johnson rifle, highwall.  Would like to contact JC Johnson and see what he can tell me. Would share his response on this thread, but I don't have his contact info. Would one of you be so gracious as to provide that?

Thanks.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #36 - Jul 3rd, 2017 at 2:43am
Print Post  
I PM'ed him. He is JC Johnson on this site. I followed his instructions in a thread he posted on this site. There should be a number under the  hand guard on the bottom of the barrel. It was under the spring on mine. It is very nice of him to do this.

I looked up Buhmiller and he was an accomplished barrel maker and african hunter. I feel very fortunate to know this about my rifle. Thanks to JC Johnson!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Statesrights
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 39
Location: Virginia
Joined: May 3rd, 2016
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #37 - Jul 3rd, 2017 at 7:59am
Print Post  
Thank you. He contacted me and I've sent him the info. I agree.  It is generous of him to provide this service. Hopefully satisfying to know that his grandfather's work is still so appreciated.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Statesrights
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 39
Location: Virginia
Joined: May 3rd, 2016
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #38 - Jul 4th, 2017 at 3:28pm
Print Post  
Through a couple very courteous exchanges, Mr. J.C. Johnson informed me that my highwall was not the work of his grandfather.  The five digit number under the forearm is not consistent with work records and the caliber marking, "32-40", is neither as neatly done as that of CCJ nor is it a caliber he ever provided.

Hmmmm.  Well, I guess it's kind of like a dog I didn't buy for its pedigree (I just liked the looks of it) and it's been with me a while.   It shoots OK, I enjoy it and will pack it along tomorrow as I head to Etna Green.

My thanks to Mr. JC Johnson.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 7283
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #39 - Jul 4th, 2017 at 4:15pm
Print Post  
I'm always a bit leery of any CC Johnson marked barrel that's not in some .22 RF or CF caliber. Seems all I've seen so far were some sort of .22 caliber barrel. May have done others, I just haven't seen any.
  

Vall
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FITZ-G
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 71
Joined: Jun 4th, 2015
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #40 - Jul 4th, 2017 at 5:59pm
Print Post  
marlinguy, never thought about CC Johnson and ,22 Caliber but you are right I think. I have not run into any CC Johnson rifle that was not a .22 Cal. I have one that I bought from Florida that was an all original Winchester HiWall in 32-40. Full Deluxe Schuetzen 3X wood and all the bells and whistles. He had Re-Barreled it in .222 Rem in about 1953, Neat floating Extractor
using a spring loaded plunger on the side to engage the Rimless cartridge. Worked fine. I was able to find a NOS Winchester #3 Barrel and restore it back to original configuration. Shoots really good. Regards, FITZ-G. Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
oneatatime
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 699
Location: Rocky Mountains
Joined: Oct 30th, 2011
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #41 - Jul 4th, 2017 at 6:04pm
Print Post  
Maybe Statesrights has one by the other Johnson.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Statesrights
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 39
Location: Virginia
Joined: May 3rd, 2016
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #42 - Jul 4th, 2017 at 6:04pm
Print Post  
Mr. J.C Johnson told me that there are no records for other than .22 RF and CF done by CCJ.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #43 - Jul 4th, 2017 at 11:48pm
Print Post  
That is interesting... only 22's. Did he advertise?
It would also be interesting so see what was popular in 22 cal back then, if a list of his work could be compiled.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Statesrights
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 39
Location: Virginia
Joined: May 3rd, 2016
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #44 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 7:38am
Print Post  
oneatatime wrote on Jul 4th, 2017 at 6:04pm:
Maybe Statesrights has one by the other Johnson.


Mine is marked "C.C. Johnson", thus counterfeit. Bought it from Florida maybe ten years ago from a guy who ran the website "Cobwebs."  Forgot his name.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
j_c_johnson
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline


C C Johnson's grandson

Posts: 86
Location: northeast Indiana
Joined: Sep 16th, 2004
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #45 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 9:10am
Print Post  
As Charles C Johnson's grandson I will try and clarify some things.
First, CCJ did not make stocks. He occasionally fitted factory replacement stocks and semi inletted bolt action stocks. 
He fitted barrels in a wide variety of calibers, but only relined .22  rimfire or .22 centerfire calibers.
The most popular caliber was .22-3000 and the 2R Lovell, followed by .218 Bee and Mashburn Bee, .219 Donaldson Wasp, and .22 Hornet.
As to compiling the records, they are on 3X5 cards and sorted into envelopes by year from 1932 to 1972 and averge 300 + jobs per year. Some cards are missing due to mice , but they are now in a mouseproof container.
One of my goals is to input the iinformation into a searchable database. Life keeps getting in the way of doing so.
Respectfully,
Jerry C Johnson
« Last Edit: Jul 5th, 2017 at 2:10pm by j_c_johnson »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 7283
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #46 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 10:47am
Print Post  
Thanks Jerry! Confirms what I suspected.
  

Vall
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #47 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 12:03pm
Print Post  
It would be interesting to see the 22 cartridge development, based on the popularity of each, by how many he built over those 40 years.
I haven't looked into values of CC Johnson's rifles, but seeing that they are being counterfeit, must indicate a premium is being sought. Because of everything being faked these days, provenance adds value and becomes necessary. That provenance can be charged for, there would be demand for this service. Like I said, I don't know the increase in value a rifle has by CC Johnson having worked on it, but depending on that premium, Jerry Johnson stand to make some money for this service. I for one would pay for an official letter. I think it would be cool to have. Being reimbursed for your efforts may give motivation to compiling those records. Good luck and Thanks again!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
ASSRA Board Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4077
Location: Berrien Springs, MI
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #48 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 4:35pm
Print Post  
Jerry's text says that his granddad fitted barrels for a wide variety of cartridges but ONLY relined for the ,22s    so that 32-40 and others might well have been a re-barrel job and not counterfeit.
  

sacred cows make the best burger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
j_c_johnson
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline


C C Johnson's grandson

Posts: 86
Location: northeast Indiana
Joined: Sep 16th, 2004
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #49 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 5:40pm
Print Post  
Statesrights indicated his rifle was relined from .38-55 to .32-40.
Additionally the number under the barrel begins with  73 which would be 1973 a year after CCJ ceased business due to health issues. It also has a consecutive number about 500 higher than the highest annual job number ever done by CCJ. I have been told there was a C  C JOHNSON (no relation )  doing gunsmithing in Bakersfield  CA. Might be one of his.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #50 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 7:02pm
Print Post  
If we knew what value a CC Johnson rifle commands over another rifle that's similar and unmarked, we could then see if there is any reason to attempt a counterfeit. A marginal difference  would not be worth the trouble, but I think that since the name CC Johnson is respected today and the fact that my rifle was special ordered from someone in California in 1947 makes me think that CC Johnson's work was respected back then too. We are in the collecting ss rifles forum, can someone who collects customized single shots give their opinion.

Thanks
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
j_c_johnson
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline


C C Johnson's grandson

Posts: 86
Location: northeast Indiana
Joined: Sep 16th, 2004
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #51 - Jul 5th, 2017 at 7:22pm
Print Post  
Among CCJ's customers was James Grant who wrote the "Single Shot Rifles" series of books and J Bushnell Smith. He had customers in most of the lower 48, and advertised in the American Rifleman classifieds.
His photo and a short comment about him appeared in the late 1940'S "Wildcat Cartridges" (a different book than the current two volume one).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 7283
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #52 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 10:24am
Print Post  
As a fancier of custom built schuetzen rifles, I couldn't begin to put a price premium on any custom built gun, regardless of the maker. There's just too many variables to say it's a certain amount, or percentage. Every custom has to be examined and appraised for the total of it's features, condition, and what provenance comes with it beyond who made the barrel or gun.
Wish it was as simple as saying a CC Johnson, Pope, Schoyen, Zischang, etc. had a particular percentage added to it's value.
I would add that anyone owning any custom maker's gun(s) should do as much homework as possible to document the gun and the maker! The thicker your file is on the maker, the gun, or previous owners, the higher it's value will be now and in the future. I've seen many desirable guns that left owner's hands with little or no provenance ever acquired! I've spent months or even years documenting some I own, and was puzzled why previous owners didn't think enough of a gun with a maker or owner's name on them to take the time to document it?

But having two CC Johnsons making guns and marking them similarly throws a wrench in the works. Those that JC Johnson can check and confirm provenance to his grandfather, will obviously garner more money, but can't say how much more.
  

Vall
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #53 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 1:40pm
Print Post  
Marlinguy, everything you say makes total, logical sense.
The gun Statesrights bought could have been worked on by a different CC Johnson, thus not considered a fake, but if it was faked and without any provenance attached..... What I'm asking is without anything except the name stamped on the barrel, is there enough reason to do it?

When I bought my rifle, I foolishly didn't think anything about counterfeiting. I do think having CC Johnson on the rifle made it more attractive to me, it implied higher quality. I bought it on more of an impulse that it was worth it, and if it wasn't I still liked it. If there is counterfeiting people like me would be a target.

Has anyone run across any other counterfeit CC Johnson rifles?

Thanks
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Posts: 7283
Location: Oregon
Joined: Feb 2nd, 2009
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #54 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 2:50pm
Print Post  
No offense meant to CC Johnson, as I'm a big fan of the barrel work he did! But at this point in time I believe that his name on a barrel will add a little to the value, but not like the added value of the most famous barrel or gun makers of earlier times.
I think if all things are equal, a CC Johnson marked barrel, that JC Johnson can document, will certainly be worth more than a no name barrel. I know I'd pay some extra for equal guns with one being a CC Johnson. But it would have to be a .22 or I wouldn't give it a 2nd look.

As for fakes. There are numerous cases of fakery in old guns with famous maker's names. Most can be identified quickly to an experienced eye, as they rarely get the rifling correct, or mess up on barrel markings. A close examination of the markings can often reveal they are engraved, and not rollstamped. All the famous makers had their own rollstamp, so an engraved marking is suspicious. It may be the marking was restored, but I'd still be suspicious, and hesitant to pay much for it.
  

Vall
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
j_c_johnson
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline


C C Johnson's grandson

Posts: 86
Location: northeast Indiana
Joined: Sep 16th, 2004
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #55 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 4:27pm
Print Post  
Another thing to consider is that an individual may have purchased a CCJohnson rifle for the action and sold the barrel which someone then used on their own project without removing the CCJ markings.
I have had several instances where the job number on the barrel came back to a different serial action or completely different action type.
Provenance is most helpful if you are selling a custom rifle.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Rebel
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Happiness is a warm gun.
J.Lennon

Posts: 1898
Location: Daytona
Joined: Mar 9th, 2015
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #56 - Jul 6th, 2017 at 6:33pm
Print Post  
This may be of interest to this discussion.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Aaron
« Last Edit: Jul 6th, 2017 at 6:39pm by Rebel »  

WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and supporting factual or anecdotal evidence.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #57 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 11:13am
Print Post  
I'll summarize what I think this thread has told me and you guys can correct me if need be. CC Johnson was a very respected gunsmith from the 40's-60's. I have not heard of anyone more renown building 22 cal custom rifles of this time period. His name was known coast to coast. Another gunsmith may have tried to capitalize on his reputation, by using CC Johnson on their work, but it was not an effort to counterfeit, but more of an effort to tailgate and possibly confuse customers to obtain more business. There may be a premium on valid customized 22 cal rifles by CC Johnson but it is not sufficient to attract any interest from counterfeiters. Collectibility is possible and could be enhanced by the fact that his build records are known. With that provenance the collectibility of his name and work as a 22 cal gunsmith could be built upon, and not fade away.
I would like to again thank everyone who has contributed. Those pictures are especially interesting.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
j_c_johnson
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline


C C Johnson's grandson

Posts: 86
Location: northeast Indiana
Joined: Sep 16th, 2004
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #58 - Jul 13th, 2017 at 11:46am
Print Post  
As CCJ's grandson, I find it somewhat amazing that 45 years after his final retirement and 41 years after his death there is a small but regular interest in him and his work. I receive around 25 requests a year for info on one of his rifles and 5 to 10 for info about him.
Pope, Niedner, Ackley and Eric Johnson are much more widely known, but CCJ did have a loyal following.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fullchoke
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 19
Location: oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2017
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #59 - Jul 14th, 2017 at 12:28pm
Print Post  
Taking myself as an example, I became interested in finding out about CC Johnson because I had a rifle with his name on it. He was rather prolific, he had a niche in 22 cal, and he did quality work, many of his examples remain, so there is interest in him. The interest could be someone trying to promote additional value in a piece or someone with a curiosity in what they have. In my situation the stock is loose and the screws attaching it are not. So I need to figure out how much I should spend to correct this problem and keep the rifle as original as possible at the same time. In my case the rifle's value comes into consideration. I think that if his work appreciates in value, there will be less dismantling of his rifles, whether for parts, remodeling, rechambering, etc., because they will become collectible. They represent a certain period in customizing the 22 cal wildcats and they are HIS work.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Green_Frog
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


"It ain't easy being green"

Posts: 3103
Location: Lynchburg, VA
Joined: Apr 18th, 2004
Re: cc johnson rifle
Reply #60 - Jul 15th, 2017 at 9:43am
Print Post  
My path has intersected with the CCJ tradition a few times starting with a high wall varmint gun I bought back in the early '90s.  At first glance it had one of the two ugliest stocks I've ever seen on a high wall, which of course he had no hand in.  He had built a round 22 R barrel (not a reline) along with a no-safety-notch, speed locked, single set trigger, and it worked quite well except the bore was solidly blocked about midway through and irreparable.  I just used the action with recovered original wood and original 38-55 bbl I found to build a shooter for a friend of mine. I wish I could have exterminated a few VA groundhogs with it in varmint trim, but that was never to be.

Then I got interested in the Red Head presses which nicely complemented my vintage little Lyman stuff, and I bought one of those.  Kinda cool and in the range built by CCJ.

Finally, I got really lucky and ran into Jerry Johnson at Etna Green at a Nationals, and really was able to connect with the CCJ tradition in a big way. Jerry shared his time and memories with me, showing me "family guns" from his father and grandfather as well as the work files he mentioned previously and some goodies from the Red Head project as well.

Charles C Johnson was a fascinating man, very talented and contributing a great deal to our sport with both his gun work and his manufacture of affordable reloading equipment as well.  I've enjoyed getting to "know" him, even second handedly.

Froggie
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 
Send TopicPrint