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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Need opinions on rebluing or not (Read 1571 times)
marlinguy
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #15 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:30am
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boats wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 4:17pm:
It's all opinion and everybody is entitled to their own. I avoid most re-blues. So does the general market if you want to re-sell.

In a weak moment I bought a FN 16 G Hammer Shotgun about 1911 vintage that had been "Restored" with a bright blue re-blue.  Then bought a proper American Hammer 16 to replace it.  That dog sat for sale for a long time before a hunter that likes FN Auto Shotguns bought it from me for 75 % of what I paid. Real nice gun too, except for the re-blue job.

Give you another example, I have a S&W M 1905 Target in very good condition on sale at a on line consignment dealer. It was factory re-blued, Serial number has the * beside it which most S&W collectors consider factory reblue markings. He has it listed for half the price of the same gun also listed on his web site, not in Target configuration, fixed sights,  and my re-blue still has not sold. Should say I bought it 50 % of non re-blue value and it's listed for a bit more than I have in the gun.

Offends your eye ? wear dark glasses when you shoot, don't spend money to loose money re-bluing

Boats



Interesting info Boats, as I'd never heard of * meaning a factory reblued on S&W revolvers. I discussed this very subject with Roy Jinks many years ago, and he told me that S&W marked a small rectangle on the grip frame under the grip. For blued guns it was RFB in the rectangle, and for nickeled guns it was RFN. It additionally had a two letter date code for the year beside the rectangle. My New Model #3 had RFN 78 under the left grip frame.
« Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:09am by marlinguy »  

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Redsetter
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #16 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 1:40pm
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boats wrote on Aug 16th, 2017 at 4:17pm:
Give you another example, I have a S&W M 1905 Target in very good condition on sale at a on line consignment dealer. It was factory re-blued, Serial number has the * beside it which most S&W collectors consider factory reblue markings. He has it listed for half the price of the same gun also listed on his web site, not in Target configuration, fixed sights,  and my re-blue still has not sold. Should say I bought it 50 % of non re-blue value and it's listed for a bit more than I have in the gun.


If any further proof of the irrationality of collector prices was needed, this would be it:  how much more "original" can a refinish be than that done by S&W on one of their own products?  Such work ought to add to the history of the piece (someone taking the trouble to return it to S&W), rather than detract from the value. 
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #17 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 4:30pm
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Redsetter wrote on Aug 17th, 2017 at 1:40pm:


If any further proof of the irrationality of collector prices was needed, this would be it:  how much more "original" can a refinish be than that done by S&W on one of their own products?  Such work ought to add to the history of the piece (someone taking the trouble to return it to S&W), rather than detract from the value. 
[/quote]

It certainly didn't hurt my New Model #3 when I sold it! But I had a factory letter from Jinks describing the gun, it's history, and the documented factory refinish.
I think if Boats got a letter from S&W it would likely increase his gun's value. Without a letter, there's no way to know for sure it's factory refinished.
« Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:09am by marlinguy »  

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martin 1940D28
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #18 - Aug 17th, 2017 at 9:30pm
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I learned my lesson over 50 years ago.  Jay Y.
  
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40-82Hepburn
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #19 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 8:56am
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I have a Hepburn, converted to .22 and built as position/prone target rifle, I expect in the 30s or 40s. The bore looked very rough, showing lots of use. I fire-lapped it thinking what do I have to lose? I was quite surprised at how well it shot after the lapping. If this gun was mine I'd try deep cleaning/lapping before re-lining.
  
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #20 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 9:38am
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I like to use a very light glass beading and a hot blue. The surfaces are not changed and no metal is removed. Small imperfections and rust pits are cleaned out and are not noticeable after bluing. I need flat surfaces!
  
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boats
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #21 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 9:40am
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This is not a S&W site, but since we are talking re-blue and value will detail my S&W experience a bit more. As example for ASSRA members.

Opinions on originality vary among experts, and no standard on who is an expert.  These days all you need is a computer to be a “expert” When I bought that gun it was advertised as a factory re-blue. I referred to Supica and Nahas’s Standard Catalogue of Smith and Wesson, book I use often. They said “some” opinion is * indication of factory re-blue others including Jinks don’t think so.   I see the same different opinions on Parker Shotgun markings, diverse opinions on what they mean.

No matter, when I bought the gun it has sat unsold priced too high for some time, Collectors did not want to  pay original prices for re-blued. It’s a very nice re-blue and to my eye S&W work, and I have owned two dozen vintage Smiths looked at hundreds more. I did not pay factory original price when buying. Bought it substantially cheaper than all original S&W M 1905 Target gun.

Am not a “expert” just liked the gun and don’t give a hoot about originality.  Have it listed and priced as I think it is, Factory Reblued and just a bit higher than I paid 10 years ago. The market who is the ultimate value setter will probably agree with me on its value.

Advice remains the same, Any re-blue means money spent  and value lost that won’t be returned on re-sale

Boats
  
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #22 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:27am
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I am leaning toward just cleaning up the exterior of the barrel as well as possible. Thanks Boats et al. I do plan to line the barrel as the bore is still rough even after using lead cleaner and a lead removal cloth. I do plan to shoot this rifle and I believe it was Warren Page who said " Only accurate rifles are interesting".  I'd like to thank all the contributors for their opinions and information.  Thanks,     Dave
  
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boats
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #23 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 10:42am
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To be honest, I have 4 Marlins that I shoot in Lever Silhouette class.

One 39a is as I  bought it when I was 12 years old. Many different sight and scope mounts over the years, drilled and filled

Other 39A was the roughest one I had ever seen, I rebuilt it my self including polishing out rust and pitts having the blue done. Refinishing the stock adding target sights. Even weighted the Magazine tube reducing capacity adding weight forward. It's full race while meeting NRA rules.

M 1894 38/40 had a terrible bore, Re-lined now and a great shooter. Looks all Factory except the MVA tang sight in factory tang holes

M 1994 .25/20 in nice shape except for the stock which has been butchered and I will replace.  MVA in factory tang holes.

Fact is I have altered all 4 and will not get out of them what I have in them due to the alterations. No matter then are used for matches and you can't win one with a unaltered Lever Action.  I would never buy a collector gun for heavy use match shooting.

Boats

  
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #24 - Aug 18th, 2017 at 4:43pm
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"Only accurate rifles are interesting" by Col Townsend Whelen, I believe.
  
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #25 - Aug 19th, 2017 at 1:29am
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40/82... I believe you're right.    Dave
  
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #26 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 10:20am
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My rule with antique guns is never refinish.  It's  not just that the "value" diminishes.  It's that the factory and finishers that made it are long gone, dead for generations.  Too many guns over the decades were reblued sometimes very poorly, in the layman's belief that shiney and new showed wealth, but worn showed you were poor. 

When BPCR came out many rifles were rebarreled, re-case hardened, and newly stocked.  The range at Raton looked right out of 1880 with factory new rifles. But all their real history was lost.

On rough bores, one of my most accurate rifles is a 1898 Krag, with a rough bore.  Another is a Colt Bisley with huge pits in the bore.  That one I shot in Cowboy Action. 

Don't look in the bore and decide if you should reline it.  SHOOT the gun, after some serious cleaning, and try different loads.  Rebluing and relining should never be the first option.  To me....
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #27 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 2:13am
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AZshot wrote on Aug 22nd, 2017 at 10:20am:
My rule with antique guns is never refinish.   Rebluing and relining should never be the first option.  To me....


I can't agree with a statement like "never". There are guns with history that should never be refinished, regardless of condition. But there are others with no special history that can be refinished if they reach the point where there's little value as they are.
Case in point. Many years ago I came across a Ballard #4 Perfection that was a first year gun. It also had a rare 34" half octagon barrel, and was unusual enough to save it. But the stocks were junk, and the barrel had a '03 Springfield .30 caliber barrel turned down and stuffed into it as a liner. Then they chambered it for .30-30, and used an electric engraver to write, ".30-30 Black Powder" across the top flat.
I bought it for $250, and began a restoration. I kept it all as it would have been done when it left Marlin, and it's a gorgeous gun. Much better than the abused old Ballard I found originally, and a perfect example of one that deserved to be restored.
  

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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #28 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 9:30am
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marlinguy wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 2:13am:
...the barrel had a '03 Springfield .30 caliber barrel turned down and stuffed into it as a liner.


How was the Spfd. brl stretched to 34"?  It was right to restore it, though doing so deprived the Museum of Cob-jobbing of a prize exhibit.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Need opinions on rebluing or not
Reply #29 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 11:24am
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Redsetter wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 9:30am:
marlinguy wrote on Aug 24th, 2017 at 2:13am:
...the barrel had a '03 Springfield .30 caliber barrel turned down and stuffed into it as a liner.


How was the Spfd. brl stretched to 34"?  It was right to restore it, though doing so deprived the Museum of Cob-jobbing of a prize exhibit.


That was a big issue too! The Springfield barrel was 22", so stopped way short of the muzzle on the .45-70 bore! The gun had Harlow's work all over it!
  

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