Page Index Toggle Pages: [1]  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90? (Read 981 times)
martini79
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 22
Joined: Aug 23rd, 2016
Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Aug 22nd, 2017 at 2:49am
Print Post  
Hi guys I am looking to have a 50 caliber rifle built and am trying to decided between a 50-70 and 50-90.

I want to shoot heavy bullets, mostly for their higher BC. At the moment I am considering a design that will weigh in around 645 grains! The rifle will be heavy around #18, with a 28" barrel.

I never like to take these things by gospel, and value real experience above all theory; but from running Quickload to achieve by desired velocity of between 1300-1450 fps to keep pressure below 20kpsi I need to breech seat with the 50-70.

Whereas with the 50-90 I may be able to reach 1400-1500 fps using fixed ammo and possibly 1600fps with breech seating.

I am not saying that I have to drive them at 1500 fps, but asking if the 50-70 can satisfactorily drive a 645 grain bullet and do well at 300-500 yards or is a 50-90 needed?

I might add that I can only get a 20 twist, which is faster than ideal, but getting a 50 caliber barrel exported is hard out of America and the slowest in Australia I can get is 1:20 though I  think 1:26:would better.

I know that the 50-90 is more versatile, and I may be able to loan a reamer, but the brass is so much less available and so much more expensive than 50-70.

In short I am asking for advise on if the 50-70 is enough case for a large bullet.

Thanks
« Last Edit: Aug 22nd, 2017 at 8:47am by martini79 »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Statesrights
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 38
Location: Virginia
Joined: May 3rd, 2016
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #1 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 7:15am
Print Post  
I tried a 600 grain Paul Jones in a DZ .50-70 with no success. Did not try breech seating.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
nuclearcricket
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 490
Joined: Oct 15th, 2008
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #2 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 1:08pm
Print Post  
I am sure you will get some advice here but you may be better served over on the Shiloh rifle board (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) or (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
I know that there are shooters over on those sites that shoot the 50 and may be of more help. Granted most of them will be using black but am sure some have and do use white powder also.
Sam
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


ASSRA #10288 (Paid Feb
2019 - 2 Yrs)

Posts: 2530
Location: New Jersey
Joined: Feb 19th, 2006
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #3 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 3:04pm
Print Post  
Martini - think about the concept of breech seating any paper patch bullet
The bullet would be fully chambered in the leading bore lands all the way to the bullet base.  Accordingly - the paper wraps would be cut before you even pull the trigger
I know of no one in the BPCR community that breech seats PP bullets.  They are loaded in fixed cartridge reloads only with the wrap below  the bullet nose so as to not cut the paper
The choice between a 50-70 or 50-90 is a personal choice
  

Regards
John
Back to top
IP Logged
 
martini79
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 22
Joined: Aug 23rd, 2016
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #4 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 3:46pm
Print Post  
I am confused who said anything about paper patching?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
gunlaker
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1333
Location: lower mainland
Joined: Dec 13th, 2010
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #5 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 3:49pm
Print Post  
John you can definitely get breech seated, bore diameter, paper patched bullets to work very well.

I don't know of anyone who does this in competition, and I do not plan on it, but I have a few rifles that I shoot only in this manner ( with black powder of course ). 

The rifles I shoot in this way are .38's however, not .50's Smiley

Chris.
  

ASSRA member 11212
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GT
Full Member
***
Online



Posts: 101
Location: Northeast Wyoming
Joined: Jun 28th, 2015
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #6 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 8:14pm
Print Post  
Martini,
I have a 50-90 and I have shot 750's, 500's, 450's - they all shoot well loaded within the velocity range you're talking.  The 750's do quite well in the wind and longer ranges but there is a trade off - recoil, especially for that velocity.  My rifle has a 1:20 twist, barrel is 34" long and weighs in at 16.5 pounds- it still punishes the shooter when the velocity goes above 1200.   
A fellow shooter here has a 50-70 but when he tried some of the heavier bullets he couldn't get enough velocity, he hasn't tried BS that I know of, his twist was close to 1:20 but I'm making an assumption:  because of his velocity there wasn't enough spin to stabilize;  his heavier bullets tumbled-  He loaded 450 and 500 grain with good success.
All we were shooting was black in these, I'm assuming you're doing the same? If not, throw my comments out, you can load with smokeless in a 70 to achieve desired velocities and still not have to breech seat.
Greg
  

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues." - Abraham Lincoln
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
martini79
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 22
Joined: Aug 23rd, 2016
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #7 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 9:38pm
Print Post  
Thanks for that useful reply, I must admit that recoil is what has put me off a 50 cal before.

Lets ask the question more simplisticly, with a 1:20 twist have fast do you think a 645 grain bullet needs to be going to do well at 300 yards? Could it do well at 1000?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J Louis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3209
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #8 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 10:05pm
Print Post  
If I may ask why are you stuck on such a heavy bullet for only 300yds, increased accuracy, in hopes of beating the wind or just personal preferance while also breech seating to get the most accuracy out of it and counter producitive unless I am missing some thing.

JLouis
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
martini79
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 22
Joined: Aug 23rd, 2016
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #9 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 10:32pm
Print Post  
Hi are you saying that at 300 yards that the extra BC will be of no advantage? I guess its not like a 1000 yards and a high BC probably isn't necessary.

Are you also saying that breech seating a bullet for higher velocity coupled with extra recoil is detrimental to accuracy? I can't argue with that!

So would your recommended a cartridge more like a 45-70, 40-65 or a 38-55 for breech seating?

I have no real need for a 50 just an itch I guess, my 38-55 does well without breech seating, perhaps I would be better with that or a 38-56!
« Last Edit: Aug 22nd, 2017 at 10:42pm by martini79 »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GT
Full Member
***
Online



Posts: 101
Location: Northeast Wyoming
Joined: Jun 28th, 2015
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #10 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 10:41pm
Print Post  
If you access a ballistics program  spend time working through it, it will give you an idea what velocity is required to stabilize a given bullet in a given twist. (computer simplified versions of Greenhill and Miller) To some of us mediocre computer literate individuals it requires a lot of picking and cussing,  my right hand man, who also happens to be my son, helps me through most of the trouble areas.  Life is about broadening your horizons so dive in.
I don't have a mold in that grain size, only the 750.  I have never shot this one (according to a Chrony) slower than 1380 MV.   Had it on paper at 800, there may have been just a little tipping starting at that point but it may have been from the angle they were coming in at too.  The group wasn't remarkable, 10 shots probably 18" and that could have been mostly me, recoil is easily anticipated...
I have new toys to play with now - doppler radar chronograph, so I may eventually go back to experimenting with this and push it out to 1000, maybe even the mile (my intentions when I started building it) but it's quite a ways down on the list.
Keep me posted on the 645g, what nose design are you thinking?
I shoot the NEI 600g, single grease groove in my 45-90, recoil on that is substantial but if I bear down and focus it shoots 1000 and 1200y better than anything I've ever touched.  It only shoots fair at 600y and less - explain that.
Here's a picture of it centered on the scale, the one in front is the 750g, .513" and in the background is yet another I made a mold for - drops just shy of 1000g.  Haven't shot it yet, not sure I ever will - don't know what twist I'll need and my barrel operations have a ways to go yet. 
G
  

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues." - Abraham Lincoln
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Hiwall55
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 197
Location: Quincy,Il
Joined: Jun 30th, 2012
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #11 - Aug 22nd, 2017 at 10:43pm
Print Post  
My 26 twist 50-90 will do what you want with smokeless or Black, but will punish you with the high velocity loads. the 515 grain RCBS that will weigh in at 540 grains is the one that my rifle likes to 300 yards, going out farther I switch to a 610 bullet with 110 grains of BP, don't know what its running at but it is accurate to the Ram line. I have a buddy that has a pair of 50's and he cant get his 50-70 to keep up with his 50-90.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
martini79
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 22
Joined: Aug 23rd, 2016
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #12 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 4:57am
Print Post  
I have not ordered the barrel yet, I am thinking maybe I should move up from 1.55 to 1.75" taking total weight of the rifle to around #22.

GT how is the recoil on 750@1380?
I think a 1:20 twist will just about stablise anything to 800 grains quite easily.

Staterights did you try the 600 grainer with BP or smokeless?

For me the jury is still out on whether to use BP or smokeless, if I want to go BP I think the 50-90 is the go for versatility. If I use smokless and keep pressure in the 15k to 20k range then with smokeless a 645 out of the 50-70 should be able to do 1300 with the right powder and that's probably as fast as it needs to go.

On a slightly different note I found data for a 700gn in a contender with a 1:10 isn't that way too fast and talk about recoil!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bruce moulds
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 205
Location: the antipodes
Joined: Mar 14th, 2015
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #13 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 6:50am
Print Post  
bore diameter pp bullets can be breech seated with no problem whatsoever.
generally when the correct airgap is found, accuracy will exceed that of fixed ammo.
if anything, the paper is less cut than with fixed ammo, suggesting that the airgap uses enough energy to reduce the strength of bumpup compared to the bullet directly on the powder as in fixed ammo.
this suggests that confettii is created by the slicing motion of the rifling as the bullet travels forward.
breech seating bore diameter pp bullets became the main act of long range sometime between 1880 and 1900, leaving fixed ammo to the grunts.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

ventum est amicus meus
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LRF
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 318
Location: MN
Joined: May 8th, 2010
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #14 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 7:36am
Print Post  
Below is a chart showing the twist and desired bullet length for that twist. (Dimensions in inches)

Twist      BL 50 cal
20      1.97
21      1.87
22      1.79
23      1.71
24      1.64
25      1.57
26      1.51
Remember a shorter bullet will shoot in a faster twist, to a point.

The question I have is why would anyone want a 50 cal rifle shooting such a heavy bullet. Hasn't anything to do with range, accuracy, etc, but more a waste of lead and powder. I know everyone can do as they wish but the only reason here is bravado. IMHO
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
martini79
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 22
Joined: Aug 23rd, 2016
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #15 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 8:08am
Print Post  
That is why before I pull the trigger so to speak on a project I tend to ask a bunch of questions as I know there are a lot of people out there who know better than I do.

You are certainly right in it be a load of extra powder and lead going up in smoke. Thats why not fully happy with the 32-40 the miller and dell were born.

Also a twist of around 1:30 would be optimal too faster twist especially with lead can hurt accuracy.

My initial motivation for large cases is too achieve the same velocity with lower pressure.
« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2017 at 8:31am by martini79 »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GT
Full Member
***
Online



Posts: 101
Location: Northeast Wyoming
Joined: Jun 28th, 2015
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #16 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 11:28am
Print Post  
Martini,
The recoil for this is Brutal!  Noticeable on the first 10, but give it 20 maybe 50 shots like a gong match and you don't want any more.  The amount of powder and lead consumed shooting this is absurd.  I built mine and did all the experimenting  with it, because I can, I tend to go down these rabbit holes just for the sake of science!?? I had to have one at least and would never let it rest until I had one in my gun safe.  If you are having one built and spending your hard earned money and it's going to be you're only big gun for long distance? go to the 45-90 or similar.  It reaches 1000 yds. comfortably, it's economical in comparison, you won't dread pulling the trigger.  You will get velocity within the pressure range you desire.  I have no regrets on any of the 45-90's I've built or purchased other than I think I have enough.
BUT, if you're like me and have to have one, make it a 50-90, anything less will make you wish you had bigger... Wink
G
  

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues." - Abraham Lincoln
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
frnkeore
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 5817
Location: Central Point, OR 97502
Joined: Jun 16th, 2010
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #17 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 12:12pm
Print Post  
GT wrote on Aug 23rd, 2017 at 11:28am:
Martini,
The recoil for this is Brutal!  Noticeable on the first 10, but give it 20 maybe 50 shots like a gong match and you don't want any more.  The amount of powder and lead consumed shooting this is absurd.  I built mine and did all the experimenting  with it, because I can, I tend to go down these rabbit holes just for the sake of science!?? I had to have one at least and would never let it rest until I had one in my gun safe.  If you are having one built and spending your hard earned money and it's going to be you're only big gun for long distance? go to the 45-90 or similar.  It reaches 1000 yds. comfortably, it's economical in comparison, you won't dread pulling the trigger.  You will get velocity within the pressure range you desire.  I have no regrets on any of the 45-90's I've built or purchased other than I think I have enough.
BUT, if you're like me and have to have one, make it a 50-90, anything less will make you wish you had bigger... Wink
G


I have to whole heartedly agree with GT!

I also had a burning desire to build a 50/90-100. I've forgotten the exact case I wanted but, it was based on the 348 Winchester case.
I had bought molds for it, over the years that I coveted it, the last one a NEI 600 gr GC mold (I was going to ream the GC off). Before I bought the barrel, I had got a 500 gr 45 cal bullet for my 45/70 (had been shooting a 409-430 gr) and took it to a BP, BR, 200 yard match. In that match, I shot 65 rounds, BSed with 70 gr FG and 15 gr of 296 as a duplex load. All the ase would hold.


I had been shooting my 45/70 for 9 years at that point but, that load was responcible for tearing my should up, so I couldn't shoot for approx. the next 12 years. A heavy price to pay!!! I had said to myself that the recoil wouldn't hurt me and that it was just what I had to endure to shoot those 45/70's that I HAD to have.

So, I sold off my 50 cal molds and gave up my plans to build a 50.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
Back to top
YIMAIM  
IP Logged
 
craigd
Oldtimer
*****
Online



Posts: 895
Location: midwest
Joined: Feb 22nd, 2009
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #18 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 5:19pm
Print Post  
If you build the 50, and you have access to a 50/90 reamer, I think I would go with 50/70. As long as you're sure the 50/70 chamber isn't unusually oversized somewhere, it may not be a big project to lengthen the chamber if you want.

Frank, sorry to read of that shoulder mishap, hope it's a thing of the past. Back to the 50 at three hundred yards. If it were me, I'd try, just to see what happens, a lower velocity with that relatively fast twist and the bullet weight you want to use. Unfortunately, I'm gathering odds and ends for my some day 50  rifle, but there're other more interesting projects that come up for me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fogman
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 10th, 2016
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #19 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 8:15pm
Print Post  
I can't imagine why anyone would want to put smokeless in a BP cartridge. Not sure the fixation on velocity either. Fill the case as full of powder as you can and still seat and chamber the bullet. The velocity is what it is. And recoil is not a factor whatsoever if you buy a leather slip on recoil pad for $38. Looks good feels good no problem.
I have a 50-90 that I am working up loads for with 98 grains of Swiss and a 600 grain bullet. So far it is more accurate than with a 550 grain bullet. I killed a buffalo with this rifle and I am glad to have done it with a BP load in this Shiloh Sharps 50-90. It weighs 13 pounds and that's enough. You don't need to build a rifle that you can't lift.  My 45-70 carbine will kick the snot out me with 69 grains of powder and no recoil pad but the 50-90 with 98 grains and the recoil pad is much more pleasant to shoot. Go to the Shiloh forum and ask some questions there - look at their website for building a rifle. I went to auction sites and looked at actual buffalo rifles from past auctions and made my own "picture book". This gave me some ideas on what was historically accurate in the old rifles. For instance - a lot of the old Sharps buffalo rifles were 30" barrels because anything longer cost more money. The pictures are free.  I love my 50-90. Good luck.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fogman
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 10th, 2016
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #20 - Aug 23rd, 2017 at 8:43pm
Print Post  
A couple of you guys need to check out this site:

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Why tear up a shoulder?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ssdave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1219
Location: Eastern Oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2004
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #21 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 12:35am
Print Post  
Can't answer your original question about breechseating and the 50-70 vs the 50-90, but will give you some anecdotal information about my experience with 50's. 

I had a 50-70 with 36 twist, it would only shoot the 450 grain gov't bullet.  Anything longer wouldn't stabilize.  Bought a 50 alaskan rolling block, had a lot of different molds with it, mostly for smokeless, and the fellow before me had loaded it to absurd levels, wonder it didn't blow up.  It had a brass crescent buttplate!!!!!! and was brutal to shoot, light weight, poor stock design and the buttplate.  I passed it on and kept most of the molds.  I built a 50-110 with a 36" 1 1/4" 20 twist round barrel, and it was a very mild shooter and I only used 750 grain bullets in it and a full case of black, as I recall about 107 or 108 grains of 2f express goex for about 1275 fps.  It was quite accurate, out to 1000 yards.   I built a light weight 50 Alaskan on a rolling block after that, using another 20 or 22 twist barrel in a sporter taper.  It is quite accurate, using 550 to 750 grain bullets and about 90 grains of black.  Good hunting rifle.
I built another 50-110 with a 1 1/4" x 20 twist tapered octagon barrel, 32" long.  It is accurate with the 750 grain bullet and recoil is quite manageable.   

The mystique of the 50's is just that.  It's just another cartridge, works the same, has the same ballistics and same characteristics of any big bore blackpowder caliber.  The ballistics of the 750 grain 50 are about the same as the ballistics of a 525 grain 45 bullet.  The recoil is about 1.5 times that of my .45-90. 

As far as motivation to own one?  For me, it's about interesting cartridges and building them.  Same reason I have a .270 REN, 22 K Hornet, .338-06, 375-06, 429 express, 25-20, .32-20, .375-405, 458 mag, 458 Lott, 40-70 SS, .38-72, .450 Nitro Express, .222 Remington and a few others.  I enjoy building something other than the standard .270, or 308 or .223 or 7mm mag or .45-70 and enjoy shooting them, regardless of how big or how small they are.

On my to do list are a few other unusuals that I want to complete:  a .375-21/4" nitro express english style rifle, a .500 ultra mag, a 6.5-06, a 6mm-.223.

I'd go for the .50 if you want it, and use the larger case and black powder.  I found the .50-70 to be pretty limited on the two I experimented with.  Larger case and heavier bullet at 1200 to 1300 fps were the best successes I had with 50's.

   
« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2017 at 12:40am by ssdave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OLReliable
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 151
Location: Massachusetts
Joined: Jul 14th, 2004
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #22 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 5:46pm
Print Post  
I try to stay away from velcro. I bought these for $60 apiece from an outfit called The Leatherman:

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  

OLR
wyyyyyyy iiiyyyyyy awwwttta ......
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
GT
Full Member
***
Online



Posts: 101
Location: Northeast Wyoming
Joined: Jun 28th, 2015
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #23 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 6:54pm
Print Post  
OLR,
Thanks for that, I purchased a couple of the velcro pads mentioned earlier in this post a few years ago, the velcro does take away some from the classic look, ordering the buckle style now. 
G
  

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues." - Abraham Lincoln
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J Louis
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 3209
Joined: Apr 8th, 2009
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #24 - Aug 24th, 2017 at 7:20pm
Print Post  
If anything takes away from the charm of a rifle for one to be able to shoot it, it might just be a bit more rifle than one really needs. Two real nice folks in our group ended up with detached Retinas apparently from shooting such rifles and maybe something else one might want to take into consideration if really not needed or even if possibly so.

JLouis
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Fogman
Junior Forum Member
**
Offline



Posts: 29
Joined: Mar 10th, 2016
Re: Breech seating a 50-70 or 50-90?
Reply #25 - Aug 25th, 2017 at 8:00pm
Print Post  
I bought a couple of lace-up all leather recoil pads from some guy in the Ukraine for $9 on EBay. What the heck $9? They work great and would do for hunting because they won't get loose and possibly slip off like the velcro pad. I like the velcro pad for the range because it takes no time at all to change the pad to another rifle. Just put 27 rounds through my 50-90 today checking sight settings out to 500 yards - no problems. My little 10 pound rolling block Creedmoor kicks almost as hard in 44-77.
OBTW I breech seat a paper patch bullet in the Creedmoor just like they did at the Creedmoor matches. It's chambered to do exactly that.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 
Send TopicPrint