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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Best twist for a Lyman 410663? (Read 1721 times)
martini79
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Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Aug 26th, 2017 at 7:57am
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Hi guys I am building a 40-70 single shot, I have the reamer and dies sorted.The bullet I plan on shooting is a Lyman 410663, possibly other designs of a similar length in the future.

What is the best twist for a bullet of that length, and I am talking about real world experience not stability calculators I have checked through those.
I have read of twists from 1:14 to 1:18.

Twists available to me are 1:13, 1:15, 1:16, 1:17 and 1:18. Shooting will be mostly at 200-300 and less often at 500 yards?

Theoretically 1:18 will work but is a 1:17 or 1:16 a safer bet, that's why I wanted actually experience. I plan on loads of around 1200-1300fps and no more.

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marlinguy
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #1 - Aug 26th, 2017 at 9:08am
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1:15" or 1:16" would both be fine. Probably the 16" for the distances you listed.
  

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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #2 - Aug 26th, 2017 at 10:11am
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I went 14" with my CPA 40-72 barrel because I wanted to be sure I'd stabilize  my Snovers (Lyman 410663) out to 1K yards.  Seemed to work well. I rang the 990 plate once I got the sight setting for my MVA tang sight.

I would think 15" and 16" would be fine.
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #3 - Aug 26th, 2017 at 11:17am
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I shoot a .40-65 in Midrange BPTR using a 400gr Money bullet that is a similar weight and length.   1:16 twist works well for me to 600 yards, but I shoot them at just over 1300 fps.   A little bit faster twist isn't going to hurt anything though. 

Chris.
  

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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #4 - Aug 26th, 2017 at 1:04pm
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faster twist causes more torque twist   16 twist is fine to 800 yds    art
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #5 - Aug 26th, 2017 at 4:32pm
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art_ruggiero wrote on Aug 26th, 2017 at 1:04pm:
faster twist causes more torque twist   16 twist is fine to 800 yds    art


Sometimes. But the Lyman is a 400 gr. bullet, and it might need a little more twist to stay stable at 800 yds. I've found a lighter 330-350 gr. bullet works excellent at 800 yds. with a 16" twist, but a 400+ gr. bullet begins to tumble at around 700 yds. with a 16" twist.
  

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martini79
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #6 - Aug 26th, 2017 at 6:10pm
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Hi guys, thanks for your great response. It seems consensus is that a 1:16 is probably best.

Not that its necessarily totally correct, but I decided to look at twist rates compared with velocity at a given distance to allow for worse case stability. Highly theoretical I know but potentially the minimum twist to guarantee stability a that distance.

Starting a 1300fps muzzle
200 yards 1:17
500 yards 1:16.5
800 yards 1:16
1 mile       1:15.5

These figures again in theory allow for a high SF, I guess its a case of yes some have done very well with a 1:18 twist, but if you don't want to spend $ on a barrel only for it to be a touch too slow it better to round down to the next fastest twist.

Thus at 500 yards a 1:16 would be the ticket, and there is a good chance it would work fine to a 1000. As I don't think I will ever shoot the mile a 1:15 is probably more than I need.
  
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beltfed
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #7 - Aug 26th, 2017 at 9:44pm
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Martini79,
You wanted examples rather than "theoretical"stability
for the 410663 "Snover" bullet vs twist for the 40-65.
Experience here with 16 twist 40-65s:
I and others have had good results with the Snover
up to midrange -600yds.
Now looking at longer distance: Long range.
The Snover in 16 twist 40-65 shot 'ok" at 800.
"Real Shaky" results at 900, and "Spray and Pray" at 1000yds.
This is only indirectly about Weight of the bullet.
It is particularly about Length of the bullet.
I did not have the option at the time to rebarrel to a faster twist:
SO, I decided to approach long range capablility and along the way better accuracy at all ranges than the Snover was giving me.
So I designed tapered Elliptical ogive Minigroove bullet that is about 50 thou shorter than the Snover. Steve Brooks cut the mold. Actual results: Bullet seated out over 70 gr Swiss 1.5, and clocking 1375fps has shot an 88/100 at 1000yds
and a 99-3X at 800yds at long range match from my custom 16 twist 40-65 HiWall.
Ditto for my encore now into Paper Patch bullet. Same design and length as my E-Mini, and now seated out farther
over 74.5 gr Swiss 1.5I get 1400fps out of it.  See attached pics of a group at 100yds and pic of the bullets/ctges. From right, Snover, E-Mini, E- PP bullets, and EPP loaded 40-65.
The other ctg and bullets on left are for my 40-72 with 12 twist barrel.
Using "reverse" logic, my suggestion to you is if you want to shoot that 410663 to its best, amongst your choices, choose the 15 twist.
beltfed/arnie
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #8 - Aug 26th, 2017 at 10:10pm
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Oh, forgot to give the lengths,wts of my bullets :
                  Length             Wt in 9+1WW/lino
Lyman 410663   1.367"         404gr
Elliptical Mini      1.322"         374 gr
DDEllipt PaperP   1.327"         370gr

beltfed/arnie
  
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alex henry two
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #9 - Aug 26th, 2017 at 11:45pm
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Well Ill throw this out there, Twist rate for bullet length?
Dia X 3 then by itself= answer
X twist by .07= answer
Then devide first answer by second =Bullet Length.
As we all know there are other factors involved
If you want to shoot from zero to 1000yds try it yes you can get longer bullets to do well to certain distances then fall in a heap. Just my Two cents worth. Vic



  
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martini79
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #10 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 1:53am
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Thanks for the replies keep the coming.

I suspect that the answer to this question could change within reason depending on range. That for strict 200 yard shooting 1:18 may be the go, but at a mile 1:13 could be the best twist. 1:15 or 1:16 looks like the best all rounder.
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #11 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 2:52am
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vic,
not sure if i did it right, but i get a length of 1.1" for my 13" twist 40 cal.
it actually handles a 1.5" long bullet in all conditions i have shot in to 1000 yds very well.
using the stability factor on jbm it should easily handle a 1.550" bullet.
generally speaaking a stability factor of 1.8 to 2.00 will handle 1000 yds reliably if the nose shape is suitable.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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martini79
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #12 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 4:05am
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Hi the concept of the SF matching distance is directly related to twist.

Is a 1.5-1.6 optimal for 200 yard shooting?
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #13 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 4:43am
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Hi Bruce, I get 1.638" by my cal. Used groove dia of .407x3=1.221x1.221=1.490841"
13twist x .07= .91
1.490841 devide by .91= 1.638"  Hopes this helps. Vic
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #14 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 5:33am
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thanks vic.
i would not even try a bullet that long in that rifle at long range.
went from 1.55 back to 1.50 for reasons mentioned previously.
keep safe,
bruce.
  

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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #15 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 6:08pm
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Martini79, I shoot 1in18 40cal based on .348winchester case about 70g of 3f out to 900yds so far bullet length 1.180''grease groove. Vic.
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #16 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 8:53pm
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With the Lyman 410663 at 1,250 fps the gyroscopic stability factor for the twists you mentioned are:

13:1 twist Sg=3.22
15:1 twist Sg=2.42
16:1 twist Sg=2.13
17:1 twist Sg=1.88
18:1 twist Sg=1.68

For that bullet I would select the 16:1 twist which has a bit of overspin which will help it shoot better at longer distances.

I have a .40-65 Shiloh Sharps 1884 with a 16:1 twist barrel and I shoot very tight groups out to 800 meters with a 410 grain Money bullet:

Caliber      0.408      Inches            
Bullet Weight      410      Grains            
Bullet Length      1.44      Inches            
Barrel Twist      16      Inches/turn            
muzzle velocity      1250      fps            
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)            
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)            
                       
Sg =      1.86            

I have a .40-60 Maynard CPA Stevens 44 1/2 with a 16:1 twist barrel and I shoot better groups out to 800 meters with a 410 grain Creedmore Paul Jones bullet:

Caliber      0.408      Inches
Bullet Weight      410      Grains
Bullet Length      1.375      Inches
Barrel Twist      16      Inches/turn
muzzle velocity      1250      fps
Temperature      50      degrees Fahrenheit (59 is standard)
Pressure      29.92      inches of mercury (29.92 is standard)
           
Sg =      2.12      

The Lyman 410663 would not shoot groups as tight as the Paul Jones Creedmore bullet or the Boomer Money bullet in either of my rifles.
« Last Edit: Aug 27th, 2017 at 9:36pm by Schuetzendave »  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #17 - Aug 27th, 2017 at 9:59pm
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Martini79,
It will be interesting to learn of what twist you ended up with
AND, please report back to us your accuracy results with the 410663 ---and other bullets you may try. I do agree with Schuetzendave:  A tapered or two diameter bullet, from a quality mold cut by a custom moldmaker such as mentioned
and such as my PiCS show, will be worthwhile. The taper or two diameter designs will enable you to seat the bullets out and get in MORE POWDER/Higher Velocity. But it must be cut to an appropriate length for your twist for best accuracy. Such as 1.325" for a 16 twist.
beltfed/arnie
  
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martini79
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #18 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 7:39pm
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Again, thanks for the replies.

Let me ask another question all barrels except the 1:13 twist need to be imported to Australia. Will using a 1:13 twist be detrimental to accuracy in the 200-500 yards range if using 410663 or similar?
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #19 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 10:48pm
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A 13:1 twist will be grossly overspinning the bullet to the extent it will affect accuracy. Normally you select a twist so the weight and length of your bullet will provide a Sg between 1.4 and 2.0.

Less than 1.4 it does not spin the bullet enough and anything over 2.0 you are overspinning the bullet.
Long range shooters may overspin a bullet to about 2.4 but the 13 twist will give you a Sg of 3.22 which is way too much of  a spin.
  
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martini79
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #20 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 11:01pm
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That is what I suspected, but I wanted to check, just because it would be the easiest, cheapest and quickest barrel to get.

In order to get anything else I will need to import. The advise from experience here seems to be a 1:15 or 1:16 twist, I am tempted to go for a 1:17, due to the fact that I can not see me using the rifle past 500 yards. I really want to get the most out of it at 200-300 yards!

Is an SG of 1.7 a good stability factor for 200 yards?
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #21 - Aug 28th, 2017 at 11:15pm
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Schuetzendave wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 8:53pm:
The Lyman 410663 would not shoot groups as tight as the Paul Jones Creedmore bullet or the Boomer Money bullet in either of my rifles.


I've had similar experiences with the Lyman Snover 410663 in a 16-twist, .409 groove dia. Browning BPCR.  After extensive testing it will not shoot as well as a Paul Jones Creedmoor, BACO 409400M4 or 410401M3 Money bullets.  But I was using a blow tube and don't believe it holds sufficient lube for the typical dry & hot summer condition found in central Texas.  So it may work better when wiping between shots.

Wayne
« Last Edit: Aug 28th, 2017 at 11:21pm by texasmac »  

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Schuetzendave
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #22 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 8:52am
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An Sg of 1.7 will work great out to at least 500 Meters.

Long distance shooters try to overspin their bullets to compendate for drag over long distances (1,000 yards) and look for a Sg just over 2.0.
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #23 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 10:07am
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beltfed wrote on Aug 27th, 2017 at 9:59pm:
Martini79,
It will be interesting to learn of what twist you ended up with
AND, please report back to us your accuracy results with the 410663 ---and other bullets you may try. I do agree with Schuetzendave:  A tapered or two diameter bullet, from a quality mold cut by a custom moldmaker such as mentioned
and such as my PiCS show, will be worthwhile. The taper or two diameter designs will enable you to seat the bullets out and get in MORE POWDER/Higher Velocity. But it must be cut to an appropriate length for your twist for best accuracy. Such as 1.325" for a 16 twist.
beltfed/arnie


I think that past 200 yards that is the ticket.  The Buffalo Arms money bullets that I'm using for midrange + silhouette have three bore diameter driving bands and are 1.4" long.  They also have mini-grooves for reduced drag.  The BC is about 0.475 which is better than the .45 cal Creedmoor designs, and it's no problem to push them past 1300 fps to minimize vertical dispersion at distance.

I have a faster twist .40-65 coming very soon from Shiloh and will try the 420gr version of this bullet.  A well known fellow I shoot with sometimes uses this combo and it's worked quite well for him.

Chris.
  

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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #24 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 11:59am
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I have used the 410-663 very successfully in a 20 twist.  Also works well in a 40-70 BN with 20 or slower twist. Not a super long bullet.


             Joe.
  
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martini79
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #25 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 4:57pm
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Thanks Joe what range were you shooting to?
  
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westerner
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #26 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 6:30pm
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200 to 385 meters. Turkey distance, whatever that is.  BP fixed only. Good old bullet.


             Joe.
  
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martini79
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #27 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 6:47pm
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Theoretically unstable till a 1:18 twist! But it worked fine out to 400 odd yards. What did you use for rams?
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #28 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 9:04pm
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For rams I used a Ron Long 400 gr tapered spitzer. 55 gr Swiss 1 1/2. Have shot it to 600 with the RL spitzer but was not competitive. Just plain ran out of gas at that distance.


          Joe.
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #29 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 5:32pm
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Guess I should have read scientific ballistics books and stuff more. After the xray glasses caper, didn't believe everything I read.  Hoping someday they figure out how to make those glasses work.


           Joe.
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #30 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 5:37pm
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westerner wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 5:32pm:
Guess I should have read scientific ballistics books and stuff more. After the xray glasses caper, didn't believe everything I read.  Hoping someday they figure out how to make those glasses work.


           Joe.

Mine worked but, I wore them out in the first month  Smiley

You should have sent them back for a replacement pair!!!

Frank
  

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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #31 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 5:45pm
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I never thought of sending them back. I thought it was just a way to get a dollar from me.  Wow, what have I missed? Nita Perez for one. Dang!



              Joe.  Cry
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #32 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 9:08pm
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Mine worked fine, but the gals had 'em too- I couldn't stand them snickering at me when they looked, so I stayed indoors until they wore 'em out like Frank's.  Cool
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #33 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 8:57am
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Hoping someday they figure out how to make those glasses work.

Seem to work great for the Homeland Security guys working at the airport.
  
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Re: Best twist for a Lyman 410663?
Reply #34 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 9:44am
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westerner wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 5:45pm:
I never thought of sending them back. I thought it was just a way to get a dollar from me.  Wow, what have I missed? Nita Perez for one. Dang!
      Joe.  Cry


Should have sent them the full $1.99 and got the good ones!
  

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