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almat
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Soule sights
Aug 29th, 2017 at 12:11am
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Looking at two soule long range sights need pros and cons. Lee Shavers super soule(higher grade) or Ron Heilman? Or the Shavers econo? 1000yds won't be the norm but I would like to be able if the opportunity comes up. They will be going on a 45-70 rolling block used mostly for local BPCR, at least that is the intent at this time. I know I'll hear Baldwin,Hoke,Mva and Kelly. Those are around the 500 plus well out of my price range. Any other suggestion will be welcomed. Shavers and Heilman around 330 to 385.

Thank
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #1 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 12:17am
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The ones I got from Ron are tighter than my NBA it Riflesmith sights.  I highly recommend him.
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #2 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 9:54am
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I personally don't use tang sights with windage adjustment in them. at longer distances I find you simply chase the wind and spend too much time adjusting sights as the wind changes. I prefer fixed tang sights without windage.
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #3 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 10:16am
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I've had a couple of the Shaver deluxe Soule sights.  They work fine, but the windage marks on the base of the staff are difficult to read.  The sights work fine, but due to the difficult to read windage marks you can get lost easily if there are twitchy winds and you have a fair bit of windage on the sight.  I've since switched to MVA's on all of my competition rifles.

I'm the opposite of Marlinguy,  I'm a big fan of windage on the rear sight.  I can't imagine shooting Creedmoor or even midrange without it.

Chris.
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #4 - Aug 29th, 2017 at 12:10pm
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I can't either Chris.  When your 20 minutes of fame opens at Ottawa or Raton and the wind is making 10 minute or more shifts shot to shot, waiting it out or holding off aren't really options.  Having only a windgage front sight is a real P I A.
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #5 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 12:18am
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For several years now, I have used one these MVA sights:  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Before I got the MVA sight, I would wish my sight had more capability, but after I got my MVA, I have never ever wished my sight was shorter. 

Save your money up for a great sight and only buy it once.
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #6 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 1:49am
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Aug 29th, 2017 at 12:10pm:
I can't either Chris.  When your 20 minutes of fame opens at Ottawa or Raton and the wind is making 10 minute or more shifts shot to shot, waiting it out or holding off aren't really options.  Having only a windgage front sight is a real P I A.


In modern times a front windgauge sight is a PITA. Windgauge rear sights were very rare in the old days. Shooting was an important pastime, they often took the time to adjust the front sight. Now days, SS shooters want to get the shooting over by noon so they can have their afternoon snooze. Doesn't do much for high scores either.


            Joe.
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #7 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 2:36am
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almat,

These guys all make very valid arguments, like a lot of us on this forum, several of us have quite a few rifles and shoot the many different disciplines, with different rifles Smiley.   I know a couple that only have one rifle, one sight etc. beware of these guys, they spent the money on quality equipment and they shoot it well, their opinions are strong with justification.

Myself, I change guns, build something new, buy parts and change everything up before every shoot it seems, there is very little consistency in my world of shooting - but I have a lot of fun!  I have a few of Shaver's sights - on .22's, mid range rifles, and a couple I use for longer distances, one's a rolling block 45-70, it makes it to a 1000 yards with some to spare - for the dollar they get the job done.  It won't make 1200 without help and guesswork.
I have a MVA like previously mentioned on another rifle, it's a very good sight, it goes out to a mile with a little room to spare, if you plan to shoot this in the future, don't hesitate, save your $$ and get one. 
I am fortunate that I have the skills and the facility, wishing I had more time - I make sights for a hobby.  I've copied many, from Soule to Snover, from Hammond to Maynard, a dozen of my own design to something as simple as Steven's and  Pope's.   I have a fair understanding of what makes or breaks a sight but it's just an opinion and everybody has one.  The markings have to be clear, the motion has to be positive, the fit of mating parts have to be close and smooth.  The more money spent generally wins these characteristics.

The windage feature is great, front or rear, but unless one has an exceptional spotter, it tends to create havoc - for me.   A spotter that makes the call and really knows what going on down range - makes the shooter.  They are few and far between.   If I'm shooting without a spotter or someone that is marginal, I'll correct a minimal amount, study conditions, pay attention to the neighbors hits and misses and generally hold correction.  If I focus I do well.   
Good luck with your decisions.
G
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #8 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 2:51am
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Joe, I don't remember when Soule sights became the norm, but we didn't have them in Ottawa in 93  Cry  A lot can happen by the time you adjust the front and get back into position and fire  Grin
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #9 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 3:14am
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They have slowly become the norm since the 1980s. Wind is wind no matter when it happens. I still hold off.


          Joe.


  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #10 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 4:38am
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Thanks for all your advice. It appears I am probably ruling out Lee Shaver at this point and with MVA being out of my price range, at 500+. It looks like Heilman is going to be my direction of travel. But it's still going to be a couple months before I am ready for sight. I still have barrel and stock work that needs done. Agian thanks for our advice. More will be welcomed.
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #11 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 6:54am
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Baldwin
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #12 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 1:16pm
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I've got some MVAs but prefer a Hoke.
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #13 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 1:17pm
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westerner wrote on Aug 30th, 2017 at 3:14am:
They have slowly become the norm since the 1980s. Wind is wind no matter when it happens. I still hold off.


          Joe.



I remember one afternoon at KD22 at Fort Lewis the hold off was the adjacent target frame  Grin We were using every other frame since we had plenty of them. Only one shooter out of 6 or 8 was getting any hits on his own target  Roll Eyes   That hold off was about 22 MOA  Undecided
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #14 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 1:55pm
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I never held off that far. Maybe a quarter of the bull at the most.  At Cody one year I held, with a scope, on the right edge of the target frame to the left of mine to get a 23. I was using a .55 caliber 700 gr bullet and a hundred grains BP. The wind, she was blowing that day.


          Joe
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #15 - Aug 30th, 2017 at 10:42pm
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At $299 you might also consider the Browning BPCR sights.  Some guys give them a bad rap but I can tell you from experience that they are good vernier sights.  There were some minor problems with the sights that came with earlier 1st year (1996) rifles but they were corrected in the later sights.  The guy that's selling them (see eBay listing below) bought the remaining inventory from the manufacturer that made the sights for Browning. There are many Browning & other rifle shooters that have used the sights to win lots of matches around the country.  I shoot with several of them and have used the sight myself prior to switching to a scope due to eye issues.

The one problem may be fitting your roller tang hole spacing.  The Browning sight has a 2.190" center-to-center spacing & comes with 10-32 mounting screws.

I know there are Browning shooters on this forum.  Maybe some can offer comments - good or bad.

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #16 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 10:59am
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I remember reading somewhere that there were quite a few fatal shootings of riflemen in the old days adjusting their windage adjustable fronts...I found it hard to swallow.  Few years later, I was out first time with my Axtel 77' Sharps .40-70 2 1/2".  I had just shot a very small group and jumped up wanting to center remaining rounds on the bull...I was adjusting micrometer and focused on the lines when my left eye happened to glance down  the side of that long 34" barrel...to see the hammer on full cock..and I'm remembering theres a loaded round in chamber!  Talk about being drenched in a cold sweat!  That muzzle was pretty much aligned right between my eyes.
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #17 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 12:46pm
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I agree with Texasmac
The Browning sight is a good one for the $300 the guy is asking on ebay.  (just checked- he has 4 left.) Ihave been using several to good satisfaction on my Brgs, Win Hi Walls and   even two Ruger No 1s.
BUT, as Wayne pointed out, there is the hole spacing
on the base. AND also, the angle of the Brg sight
will not be exactly correct for a Roller. It is noted that I had ordered my sights direct from AMT the manufacturer of the Brg Sight with bases for the particular rifles.
The Brg sight base has hole space of 2.185", and angle of 18degrees. An orig. Rem roller base hole space is 1.938 and angle of staff at 20 degrees.
If you at building a roller from a non D&T military , the hole spacing will not matter. But, you might have a little issue
with the angle.
beltfed/arnie
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #18 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 1:15pm
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.22-5-40 wrote on Aug 31st, 2017 at 10:59am:
I remember reading somewhere that there were quite a few fatal shootings of riflemen in the old days adjusting their windage adjustable fronts...I found it hard to swallow.  Few years later, I was out first time with my Axtel 77' Sharps .40-70 2 1/2".  I had just shot a very small group and jumped up wanting to center remaining rounds on the bull...I was adjusting micrometer and focused on the lines when my left eye happened to glance down  the side of that long 34" barrel...to see the hammer on full cock..and I'm remembering theres a loaded round in chamber!  Talk about being drenched in a cold sweat!  That muzzle was pretty much aligned right between my eyes.

I remember most guys looked down the muzzle adjusting  them.  I only do it going from offhand and to rest setting and vice versa.  Knowing the MOA for 1/4 revolution, adjusting it reaching forward and being aware of the backlash in the threads just seemed to be a better way to go. 
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #19 - Aug 31st, 2017 at 2:03pm
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the heilman sites are a good value,  have one over 10 yrs   art
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #20 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 12:52am
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beltfed wrote on Aug 31st, 2017 at 12:46pm:
I agree with Texasmac
The Browning sight is a good one for the $300 the guy is asking on ebay.  (just checked- he has 4 left.) Ihave been using several to good satisfaction on my Brgs, Win Hi Walls and   even two Ruger No 1s.
BUT, as Wayne pointed out, there is the hole spacing
on the base. AND also, the angle of the Brg sight
will not be exactly correct for a Roller. It is noted that I had ordered my sights direct from AMT the manufacturer of the Brg Sight with bases for the particular rifles.
The Brg sight base has hole space of 2.185", and angle of 18degrees. An orig. Rem roller base hole space is 1.938 and angle of staff at 20 degrees.
If you at building a roller from a non D&T military , the hole spacing will not matter. But, you might have a little issue
with the angle.
beltfed/arnie


Arnie,
I had forgotten to point out the angle difference.  Thanks for pointing it out.  I doubt 2 degrees will make a significant difference but the front of the base can be shimmed if necessary.  It won't take much. 

Also, AMT the manufacturer of the sights, still has some parts including bases for various rifles the last time I spoke with them, but it's been some time.  They also have/had complete front sights for Sharps (0.454" dovetails) and some windage adjustable front sights (do not remember the dovetail dimensions).  If anyone is interested, AMT can be reached at 800-691-1233.  Ask for Dennis Taylor.

Wayne
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #21 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 10:53am
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Correcting 2 degrees of tang angle difference, at 2.185", will require just a little bit more then a shim of .038" thickness.
Calculation would be Distance *  SIN(2 degrees) in this case 2.185" * .0349" = shim thickness
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #22 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 10:56am
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As the sight elevation raises, that 2 degrees forward wont mean much. In fact it might work better as the sight elevation gets higher.
  

Vall
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #23 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 11:03am
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Vall however 18 degrees on a 20 degree tang would mean the sight leans backwards, doesn't it? Or am I getting old
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #24 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 12:58pm
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I have 2 Shavers and 1 Heilman. The Shavers are both economy grade so the finish doesn't match the Heilman, but they are good quality. I think Shaver's represent a good value (or I wouldn't keep buying them). I also have a couple of his front sights which I like.
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #25 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 1:00pm
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LRF wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 11:03am:
Vall however 18 degrees on a 20 degree tang would mean the sight leans backwards, doesn't it? Or am I getting old


LRF,

You're correct, the shim would have to be located under the rear of the base, my mistake, and a shim of 0.076" to correct the angle would be significantly thicker than I thought.  I made that age old mistake of assuming.

Wayne
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #26 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 1:03pm
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LRF wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 11:03am:
Vall however 18 degrees on a 20 degree tang would mean the sight leans backwards, doesn't it? Or am I getting old


No, you're correct Lynn. Which means it would get worse, not better as it was raised.
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #27 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 1:36pm
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That angle is easily corrected by careful filing.  I had to make my heel sights stand up straight; none commercially available.
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #28 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 2:12pm
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texasmac wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 1:00pm:
LRF wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 11:03am:
Vall however 18 degrees on a 20 degree tang would mean the sight leans backwards, doesn't it? Or am I getting old


LRF,

You're correct, the shim would have to be located under the rear of the base, my mistake, and a shim of 0.076" to correct the angle would be significantly thicker than I thought.  I made that age old mistake of assuming.

Wayne

Wayne, I think you doubled the shim thickness, actually .038" would be required at a minimum. See my earlier post with the calculation required.
I have had these Browning sights and they are okay but if I was trying to use one I would make a new base. An option not always a possibility to all. The truth is just buy what you need to fit and be done with it. However everyone gets to choose their own medicine.
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #29 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 5:32pm
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LRF wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 2:12pm:
texasmac wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 1:00pm:
LRF wrote on Sep 1st, 2017 at 11:03am:
Vall however 18 degrees on a 20 degree tang would mean the sight leans backwards, doesn't it? Or am I getting old


LRF,

You're correct, the shim would have to be located under the rear of the base, my mistake, and a shim of 0.076" to correct the angle would be significantly thicker than I thought.  I made that age old mistake of assuming.

Wayne

Wayne, I think you doubled the shim thickness, actually .038" would be required at a minimum. See my earlier post with the calculation required.
I have had these Browning sights and they are okay but if I was trying to use one I would make a new base. An option not always a possibility to all. The truth is just buy what you need to fit and be done with it. However everyone gets to choose their own medicine.


After checking I agree with the formula you stated as follows: "Calculation would be Distance *  SIN(2 degrees) in this case 2.185" * .0349" = shim thickness".  When I do the math 2.185 X .0349 = .0763" shim.

Wayne
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #30 - Sep 1st, 2017 at 6:58pm
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I stand corrected! Smiley
What I was trying to say was shimming was a ugly solution and you certainly punctuated that. Thanks
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #31 - Sep 18th, 2017 at 1:53pm
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If you use a traditional target scope (Lyman, Unertl, etc) for the scope matches on your rifle, the Baldwin is definitely worth the extra.  He uses a left hand thread for the adjustments, which means that the directions are the same as the thimbles on the scope.  I used an original Soule for years - loved it, but had to think which way to go each time for the correct direction.  Have two Baldwins on my currect match rifles and am very happy with them.

Jerry
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #32 - Sep 18th, 2017 at 2:57pm
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Baldwin for a few reasons, but this is not to disparage other quality sights.
1. It is substantial.
2. Witness marks are relatively easy to see.
3. Good tolerances.
4. "Right hand rule" adjustments (same as scope).  The fingers of the right hand point the direction of adjustment.  The thumb indicates the direction change of bullet impact.
5. Economy: As so many have indicated (we know because we've done otherwise), buy the best sight the first time.
  
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #33 - Sep 18th, 2017 at 2:57pm
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sloshooter wrote on Sep 18th, 2017 at 1:53pm:
If you use a traditional target scope (Lyman, Unertl, etc) for the scope matches on your rifle, the Baldwin is definitely worth the extra.  He uses a left hand thread for the adjustments, which means that the directions are the same as the thimbles on the scope.  I used an original Soule for years - loved it, but had to think which way to go each time for the correct direction.  Have two Baldwins on my currect match rifles and am very happy with them.

Jerry


I asked that question a few times and was told it wouldn't work.  Guess they were either too lazy or couldn't figure it out  Roll Eyes
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #34 - Sep 18th, 2017 at 4:41pm
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Sep 18th, 2017 at 2:57pm:
sloshooter wrote on Sep 18th, 2017 at 1:53pm:
If you use a traditional target scope (Lyman, Unertl, etc) for the scope matches on your rifle, the Baldwin is definitely worth the extra.  He uses a left hand thread for the adjustments, which means that the directions are the same as the thimbles on the scope.  I used an original Soule for years - loved it, but had to think which way to go each time for the correct direction.  Have two Baldwins on my currect match rifles and am very happy with them.

Jerry


I asked that question a few times and was told it wouldn't work.  Guess they were either too lazy or couldn't figure it out  Roll Eyes


Interesting comments.  I did not appreciate the windage reverse threads in my Browning soule rear sight until I switched, due to aging eyes, to a period-style Fecker scope with Unertl-style adjustments.  The Browning sight uses reverse threads for windage, i.e. rotating the knob clockwise moves the sight to the left, same as the scope adjustment.  But unfortunately Browning did not use reverse threads on the elevator (elevation adjustment).  Turn it clockwise & the sight moves up - the reverse of a Unertl-style adjustment.

Just wondering how the Baldwin elevation adjustment works?

BTW, I do have a very well-made Kelly rear sight I plan to mount on a new Shiloh Sharps I should receive in a few weeks.  Clockwise adjustment of the windage knob moves the sight to the right.  And clockwise adjustment of the elevation knob moves the sight up.

Wayne
  

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Re: Soule sights
Reply #35 - Sep 18th, 2017 at 5:35pm
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A number of the top single-shot shooters use Hoke tang sights. They are based on a period design that is not a Soule and are of very high quality. I have a couple of them and think they are great. Especially like that they are marked in such a way that one doesn't have to refer to the vernier to reset. Want to go up 1MOA then make a full turn of the knob, etc.
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Just checked the equipment list for the 2017 BPCR Raton Iron-sight Nationals. There were 4x MVA, 2x Hoke, 2x Baldwin & 2x Kelley in the top-10. Winner was a Hoke shooter, but don't think that was the difference.

Schuetzenmiester wrote on Sep 18th, 2017 at 6:29pm:
I very seldom looked at my scale on either the windgage or tang sights during a match. I had the minutes calculated by the rotation of the knobs.  The scales were used for initial settings or if I went backwards and needed to rezero  Shocked

Yep. That's the way to do it. But, you would be surprised how may folks still read the vernier when they adjust. Waste of time (when in a timed event) and not as accurate as "knowing your knob".
« Last Edit: Sep 18th, 2017 at 6:33pm by SSShooter »  

Glenn
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Soule sights
Reply #36 - Sep 18th, 2017 at 6:29pm
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I very seldom looked at my scale on either the windgage or tang sights during a match. I had the minutes calculated by the rotation of the knobs.  The scales were used for initial settings or if I went backwards and needed to rezero  Shocked
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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