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GT
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Pope tang sight
Sep 4th, 2017 at 1:45pm
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I'm making an attempt to finish a long overdue project - a Pope rear tang sight.  Does anyone happen to have an original they could give me some rough measurements from and maybe a couple of different views?  All I have is pictures from the Hartford book and few from the internet.  Running off proportions from dimensions I can assume - do make it a slow process.
Thanks,
Greg
  

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues." - Abraham Lincoln
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waterman
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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #1 - Sep 4th, 2017 at 5:18pm
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I have used both the original and a Parts Unknown copy on two rifles for gallery (winter matches) and at 100 & 200 yards.  They are fine if you are going to shoot at a fixed distance.  Windage is simple & sure with the original, sloppy with the PU.

BUT elevation with either is frustrating or beyond.  I finally figured out what settings I needed and use an old feeler gauge and my notebook to set elevation.

The Pope tang sight would be improved greatly with an ordinary elevation screw, maybe even one with clicks.
  
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GT
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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #2 - Sep 5th, 2017 at 12:59am
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Waterman,
I am aware of the frustration involved adjusting elevation, I have a small adjustment I plan to make in the form of a graduated rod.

In between client demands and honey-do's I managed a couple hours on the project today, still winging it for sizes...  Quite a bit of filing and fitting plus a couple of key parts but here's a few pictures.
Greg
  

"It has been my experience that folks who have no vices have very few virtues." - Abraham Lincoln
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westerner
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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #3 - Sep 5th, 2017 at 2:52am
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The proper method for sighting in a Pope windgauge sight is to adjust the powder charge. If the bullet is low raise the powder charge. If bullet hits to high lower the powder charge. I do it all the time. Bullets don't always hit the same mark from range to range or day to day.


               Joe.
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #4 - Sep 5th, 2017 at 5:47am
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I have a recollection that HM stated or wrote that he deliberately made it difficult to adjust because he thought that shooters were causing themselves to many problems by being to easily tinker with their elevation adjustments.  My memory is a bit unclear on where I read or heard that but it seems to fit his irascible personality.

  I've always wanted one of those sights---even the PU rendition.  Since I only shoot the 200 yd or less matches my long-tang Long range sights are sights are almost an inconvenience.
   I think a detailed "How to do it" illustrated article in the Journal on your project would be of value.
  

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GT
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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #5 - Sep 5th, 2017 at 12:18pm
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Joe, I was told this and tried it, what I noticed on the average was the group size was affected - probably because I'm not shooting the quality of barrel that HM had?

"I have a recollection that HM stated or wrote that he deliberately made it difficult to adjust because he thought that shooters were causing themselves to many problems by being to easily tinker with their elevation adjustments.  My memory is a bit unclear on where I read or heard that but it seems to fit his irascible personality."

I do recall hearing this same thing stated by HM, I've experienced it myself, make adjustment and adjustments and by the time I get settled in I'm back where I started... 

QM - I've slugged through a few articles in the past, they were very rewarding - with my current workload I'm not sure I could fit it in, just these posts are consuming.  Maybe in a year or two.
Greg


  

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westerner
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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #6 - Sep 5th, 2017 at 1:34pm
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Group size?  Makes no difference where the group forms in a group match.


           Joe.
  
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GT
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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #7 - Sep 5th, 2017 at 4:44pm
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Group size? There are some I find MOA is easily achieved and remains with the change, a few I have make minute of iron, but sometimes when I play with powder charge I get minute of hillside with the same everything, depending on the distance.
Reading F. Mann's book right now, wish I could say I'm learning something - some of his experiments have made things I thought were cut and dried - somewhat muddy.  Wished I'd have been more involved in this activity when I was in college, think of what it could do to a "young" engineer's mind.
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #8 - Sep 5th, 2017 at 4:58pm
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A  "young" engineer's mind?

Best results are usually achieved  with the advantages of naive innocence and beginner's luck  Grin
  

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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #9 - Sep 5th, 2017 at 7:57pm
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GT, I am not sure but it looks like you are locking your elevation by turning the two nuts against each other. This is not what Pope planned. In the Pope sights I have the two nuts are spaced apart so you do not have to fight to get them loose. They are locked against the Top and Bottom of the slot. His instruction was to Rotate one by one Hole and then lock it by rotating the other one to fetch up on it's locking surface. To use a Pope sight successfully you have to be using it regularly.
They are a pain in the a$$ to keep right in your mind depending on which one you loosen first and then fetch up with the other one. His thread pitch was such that indexing one hole in the wheel to an edge would give 1/2 Minute elevation. I need to think about that as I am working from memory here. I some where have a Pope flyer that describes this method. If I can find it I will find a way to get it to you just as he describes. I can tell you that as many times as I have tried I have not been happy with it. As he said shooters are too quick to make changes rather then admit to themselves it was just not a good shot. HTH Regards, FITZ-G Smiley
  
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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #10 - Sep 5th, 2017 at 8:01pm
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GT, By the way that is some nice clean Machine work you are doing. Nice and clean looking with no visible chatter or over cuts. What is the Material? Patience does work. Regards, FITZ-G Smiley
  
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peterson2520ss
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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #11 - Sep 5th, 2017 at 9:51pm
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After seeing the last post I got my Stevens-Pope out and did a little measuring. The  hole in the stem is .317 tall and the nuts are .125 thick. That leaves  just over 1/16 inch between them.  One hole on the  nuts moves the staff .0025 inches. On my rifle with 32 1/4 sight spacing it equal just over 1/4 minute.
To use it loosen the top nut and tighten the bottom will move sight up.
Det
  
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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #12 - Sep 6th, 2017 at 1:36am
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Fitz-G,
Thanks for the details, I noticed the space in the pictures and read some of the directions as per HM's literature in the Hartford book.  I do need a little more space between the nuts so they don't get jammed together - right now it's about .008" - need a little more.  It's far easier to remove more material than try to add it. Smiley 
The material was a scrap of 4142 I had from some previous job, not my first choice for for gun or sight parts but it saved me time digging through my mess.  One of my smaller lathes, an 18" Monarch 61 eats this stuff like it's candy, and the little Bridgeport handles it fairly well.  Contrary to most thoughts, it doesn't take me very long to make or destroy these parts - both instances happen frequently (depends on my interruptions).  Back when I was beginning in the trade, my mentor told me I could worry my way through a part, potentially still scrap it or smash and bash, trust your machine, your skills and arrive at the same point in far less time... sometimes make two or three in the time it takes the average schmuck to make one.  Wink
If it's a part for me, I tend to push quite hard.  This one has a few of my "signatures" as I tell my employees.  Those are the little oops one has when they rough things a little close, and finishing doesn't clean them up Wink it's only cosmetic... 

Det, 
Thanks for the dimensions, using proportions from the photos I had, I made my dials 1/2" diameter, and 1/8" thick, I'll widen the opening. The difference I'm getting from some other responses is I made the screw on mine #12-40 thread vs. a #12-24, so each rev moves elevation .025" and I drilled 5 holes vs. 8 around the circumference.   The rifle I'm building for this sight will have a sight radius of 36" or close to it so any extreme distance changes will be a pain but I can make corrections closer than I can shoot - a one minute adjust would have been plenty.  Grin
  

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waterman
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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #13 - Sep 6th, 2017 at 1:57am
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westerner wrote on Sep 5th, 2017 at 2:52am:
The proper method for sighting in a Pope windgauge sight is to adjust the powder charge. If the bullet is low raise the powder charge. If bullet hits to high lower the powder charge. I do it all the time. Bullets don't always hit the same mark from range to range or day to day.


               Joe. 


Both rifles were .22 rimfires, an original Stevens-Pope and my Farrow.
  
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Re: Pope tang sight
Reply #14 - Sep 6th, 2017 at 2:18am
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The proper way to change POI when using .22 ammo with a Pope windgauge sight is to change brands of ammo.   Roll Eyes


        Joe.
  
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