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waterman
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Black rifles
Sep 9th, 2017 at 9:01pm
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I'm an elderly flatulent who does not even own a camo jacket.  I have never shot a black rifle, just swore at the black rifle shooters who pelted me with hot empties.  But now I want to learn about them.  I decided to ask you guys because I am sure that somebody on this forum has the answers I am looking for.

Specifically, what does it take to make one?  I assume that they are intended to be made on CNC-controlled machinery.  How much does the software cost?  What sort of metal is needed?  Where do the barrels come from?
  
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westerner
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #1 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 9:12pm
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I held one once but only because it's really a percussion muzzle loader.  Chuck kept bugging me to pose with it.  I did it but I didn't like it.  As he was taking the picture I kept saying , hurry up hurry up. Then I went to the creek and washed my hands.



               Joe.   Smiley
  
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nuclearcricket
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #2 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 9:16pm
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Barrels are available from many sources, as are the rest of the parts. The lower receivers are available as an 80% finished part that can be finished on a conventional mill. Probably the easiest way to go would be to purchase a complete upper along with a lower parts kit and if you have the skills and tools, an 80% lower and finish it. Then have it anodized in the color of your choosing. Assembly is not hard but there are a lot of small springs and detents that you kind of have to be careful of not loosing any of.
They are also available in a variety of calibers other than the standard 5.56/.223. They can be quite accurate and very pleasurable to shoot. They are, however, a pain in the behind to clean. The military standard is to clean it every day for 3 days to get all of the carbon out of it.
Hope this helps you some.
Sam
  
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OkeyMaple
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #3 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 10:36pm
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Some of the BR set at my club have seriously challenged results achieved by custom bolt guns. Les Baer will sell you a competitive rifle for $2,700.00 +-. Most of the guys are assembling pieces/parts from a variety of sources for less $. .223 is most popular. 6.5 Creedmore coming on strong. All depends on what range you want to shoot. 100-200 most common. 300 - 600 - 1000 ....... you name it. Whatever floats your boat.
I'm happy with s.s.

  

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uscra112
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #4 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 11:27pm
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Only about a zillion web sites about ARs.  Discussion sites, brag sites, self-help sites, commercial sites.  Take you years to take it all in. 

Just don't get taken in by the plastic receiver crowd.  Yes, there are molded resin 80% receivers on the market.  They are junk.

My advice:  Buy a cheap ready-made one and get it out of your system.  We'll forgive you.
  

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Re: Black rifles
Reply #5 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 11:28pm
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nuclearcricket,
Cleaning the carbon out of the carrier has long ago evolved since the ammo was no longer loaded with high calcium chloride burn rate deterent. Early days of our shooting ARs, we had been loading with Win 748 and every match we had to cut the carbon out of our bolt carriers with a drill.
But then we switched to Hodgdon's Varget-a short stick powder w/o all that deterent coating.  Viola!.
We can now shoot hundreds of rounds in a couple days of practice , or all week at Perry w/o having a bolt carrier foul out and giving problems.
beltfed/arnie
  
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uscra112
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #6 - Sep 9th, 2017 at 11:39pm
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Trivia:  It was calcium carbonate, and they added it to soak up any residual acid from the nitrating process. They still do, but not as much now.  They don't want to take the time to wash it properly, I guess. 

+1 on Varget.  Better numbers and less muzzle flash.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #7 - Sep 10th, 2017 at 10:09am
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Considering how inexpensive the AR style rifles are at this time, it makes no sense to make one. My last Cabelas ad came a couple days ago and they had AR15's for $429 after a $50 rebate. You can't build one for that price.
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #8 - Sep 10th, 2017 at 11:35am
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marlinguy wrote on Sep 10th, 2017 at 10:09am:
Considering how inexpensive the AR style rifles are at this time, it makes no sense to make one. My last Cabelas ad came a couple days ago and they had AR15's for $429 after a $50 rebate. You can't build one for that price.

I don't really pay a lot of attention to them,  but it seems like my casual observations out of the corner of my eye saw them around 1000 to 1500 not too long ago.  What happened? Obama/Hillary concerns fade out with Trump's election crashing the market?
  

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George Babits
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #9 - Sep 10th, 2017 at 4:42pm
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I sure as heck hope it never comes to the point where I'll need one.  But, I think that if I ever have a use for one, I'll be able to pick one up off the street that someone dropped running away.  Probably lots of ammunition too. 

George
  
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waterman
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #10 - Sep 10th, 2017 at 5:02pm
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George Babits wrote on Sep 10th, 2017 at 4:42pm:
I sure as heck hope it never comes to the point where I'll need one.  But, I think that if I ever have a use for one, I'll be able to pick one up off the street that someone dropped running away.  Probably lots of ammunition too. 

George


Those were my thoughts, George, except that I am a one-legged pessimist.  The black rifles have been with us as civilians for something like 50 years.  How many are in the hands of civilians?
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #11 - Sep 10th, 2017 at 7:21pm
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I've owned 3 of them over 35-40 years. Every time I saw one cheap I bought it. Then when things went nutty I sold them at big bucks. Might be time to buy again. When I saw the various prices at Cabelas flyer, there were others in the $750 and under range, and all were name brands.
I think the market is flooded with every rifle and pistol maker getting into the AR15 clone business, so that and the election means a glut of them!
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #12 - Sep 10th, 2017 at 8:23pm
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Sounds like time to buy, post some Hillary for president signs and sell  Cheesy
  

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Re: Black rifles
Reply #13 - Sep 10th, 2017 at 8:28pm
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I have several connections with the ammunition and arms industries and my advice is "wait". This is only the beginning of a long slide in prices. They are predicting a 50% decrease in .22rf prices and there is a stockpile building rapidly of ammo and firearms.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #14 - Sep 10th, 2017 at 8:37pm
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bohemianway wrote on Sep 10th, 2017 at 8:28pm:
I have several connections with the ammunition and arms industries and my advice is "wait". This is only the beginning of a long slide in prices. They are predicting a 50% decrease in .22rf prices and there is a stockpile building rapidly of ammo and firearms.


Can't imagine they'll get below the $429 price that Cabelas has. They do have a certain cost involved in manufacturing, and wont sell below that.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #15 - Sep 10th, 2017 at 8:55pm
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I was wrong! They can be cheaper! Just looked at the Anderson AR 15 that is the company selling all the $50 lowers for guys who want to build them up. Cabelas has those for under $400.
MODEL:    AM15 OPTRDY .223 30R    |    ITEM:    IK - 292740
So I'm having one shipped to my local store for pickup next week. I'll leave it NIB, and when things go nuts I can sell it for a profit NIB. Plus I had Cabelas Club points that brought it down even farther, and used my Cabelas card to add back more points!!! I pay it off monthly, so it gives me an excuse to check gunpowder prices!
  

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waterman
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #16 - Sep 11th, 2017 at 2:06am
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if I guessed the number out there was 15 million, would I be high or low?
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #17 - Sep 11th, 2017 at 10:48am
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waterman wrote on Sep 11th, 2017 at 2:06am:
if I guessed the number out there was 15 million, would I be high or low?


There were approximately 2 million built between 2000-2010, and considering the total years offered to the public of AR15 style rifles, I think your guess might be a bit high for just AR15 types.
  

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Re: Black rifles
Reply #18 - Sep 11th, 2017 at 10:57am
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The thing that fascinates me the most is the number of calibers available for these rifles.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #19 - Sep 11th, 2017 at 11:13am
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possible wrote on Sep 11th, 2017 at 10:57am:
The thing that fascinates me the most is the number of calibers available for these rifles.


Had to go do a search, as I was unfamiliar with the calibers available. Here's the list I found:

•5.45×39mm.
•5.56×42mm(5.56-6.8)
•5.56×45mm NATO - Original AR-15A2 caliber: can also safely fire .223 Remington.
•FN 5.7×28mm.
•6.5X40.
•6×45mm.
•6×6.8 (BHW)
•6mm Hagar.
  

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nuclearcricket
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #20 - Sep 11th, 2017 at 5:51pm
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you missed the .300 black out and I think there are some available in 7.62 x 39 but I am not sure how well they work.  There are also some models available in pistol calibers such as 9mm.
Sam
  
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #21 - Sep 20th, 2017 at 10:12pm
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Schuetzen is my first love, no question about it, but the AR-15 is the greatest rifle ever invented. What other rifle can offer this:
1)excellent target accuracy,2) available in about 48 chamberings 3) buy one lower and as many uppers as you want and change caliber/weight etc in under five minutes with no special tools required
4) infinitely customizable: dozens of grips, forends, buttstocks,triggers  and sights on the market, no special tools required, 5) with the proper chambering, can be used to hunt any North American game, large , small and in between. 6) reliable, (did not used to be but is now),7)also great for home defense 8) the foundation for a great military rifle which has been in service for about 50 years. No other rifle comes close. Joe S
PS: comes in any color you want including black or walnut wood stock if you prefer.
  
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #22 - Sep 20th, 2017 at 10:35pm
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As a Marine in Nam they made us turn in our M-14s and draw an M-16. We had the ones with all the problems. Shoot them full auto and ultimately the gas tube would become fouled and they ceased to function. We put drops of solvent down the gas tube and use C-rats box wire trying to clear them. Move on to 1986, I am a civilian shooting the DCM Matches at Perry. They required us to shoot an M-16. First time I ever shot an M-16 on a KD range.  Move on to 1995, the Marines  & the Army have tuned an  M-16.  Sierra has made bigger bullets, the twist rate has gone to 1-8. An 80gr Sierra can hold it own with an Sierra .30 cal 168gr at 600yds. I started shooting this rifle xcross the course.  AR-15 300yd rapidfire prone.   
« Last Edit: Sep 20th, 2017 at 10:43pm by Kurt_701 »  

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marlinguy
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #23 - Sep 21st, 2017 at 9:01am
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My fiasco at Cabelas yesterday involved buying a new AR-15 rifle. Definitely not my area of interest for rifles, but it's tough to not want one when prices for new quality AR-15's goes under $400!
Probably wont shoot it a lot, but it is cheap fun, and that's why they're so popular these days.
  

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Re: Black rifles
Reply #24 - Sep 21st, 2017 at 5:43pm
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I own eighteen rifles, all single shots.
My Army experience was limited to a jungle 303 and a Bren Gun.
Yep I'm that old!
Talking to a guy at the range a few weeks back about his black plastic wonder and about how good it was shooting and as to how the prices were pretty reasonable compared to a few years ago.
His advice was to go for an AK with a piston and not a blow back AR because of the fouling.
Or have I got it all wrong?


  
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #25 - Sep 21st, 2017 at 6:00pm
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If you want a combat rifle, AK is hard to beat. If you want a rifle that is a great combat rifle, a great target rifle, and a great hunting rifle, the AR is the way to go. You cannot make a match rifle out of an AK. You cannot swap uppers, or customize an AK the way an AR-15 can be customized.
Joe S
  
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #26 - Sep 21st, 2017 at 6:45pm
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"His advice was to go for an AK with a piston and not a blow back AR because of the ...

The AK has a piston system.  He may have meant get an AR in 7.62x39 but with a piston system.

Now with the new BCG coating, cleaning is very easy, NiB, EXO™, NP3™, Nickel Boron Nitride, etc.  Obviously, he would never shoot BP.  Also, the jury is still out on ARs with a piston system.  If it was such a great system the industry would have switched over, to include U.S. military.

I agree with Joe_S, he's on the mark.

BTW - I have a LW, 2 HWs, and 3 ARs (M4-gery 5.56, .223Rem Varmint, and 6.8 SPC Hunter).
  
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #27 - Sep 21st, 2017 at 6:59pm
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Vall,
I'll forgive you that AR15 if you put a Pope barrel on it.
Aaron
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #28 - Sep 21st, 2017 at 8:09pm
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The AR-15 is certainly not one of my beloved single shots! And it wont ever take the place of even my least favored single shots. But they are a real bargain, and do what they're designed to do very well. I doubt the US military would still be using them 50 years later if the bugs weren't worked out, and they weren't any good.
As mentioned, the AR15 platform can be extremely reliable, and extremely accurate, which is unusual for a semiauto rifle. Having ammo drug from a magazine, and bashing bullet tips into feed ramps, is not conducive to accuracy normally, but the AR's show they can do so, and still hit at very long distances. They're not just a spray and pray gun like the AK47.
  

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Re: Black rifles
Reply #29 - Sep 21st, 2017 at 8:31pm
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Yeah, I have one too.
Still looking for that Pope barrel though.
I bought it years ago to shoot with my friends in the "Colt Cup"
sponsored by Colt for a few years till they banned them in Connecticut.
Great guns, but I haven't shot it since. (more than 20 years)
It's a pre-ban Colt H-Bar, just might be valuable.
Aaron
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Black rifles
Reply #30 - Sep 22nd, 2017 at 10:04am
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Rebel wrote on Sep 21st, 2017 at 8:31pm:
Yeah, I have one too.
Still looking for that Pope barrel though.
I bought it years ago to shoot with my friends in the "Colt Cup"
sponsored by Colt for a few years till they banned them in Connecticut.
Great guns, but I haven't shot it since. (more than 20 years)
It's a pre-ban Colt H-Bar, just might be valuable.
Aaron


I think the "pre ban" thing went out the door when the ban was lifted. Now that they can once again sell guns with pistol grip stocks, 30-40 round magazines, and flash hiders, all the pre ban allure just went up in smoke.
I chuckled when I looked at 30 round spare mags at Cabelas and saw hundreds for sale and almost all under $15 ea.
  

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