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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Winder Musket - do you know what one is? (Read 7970 times)
Redsetter
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #15 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:23am
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Rebel wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:15am:
Do you really think you're more of an expert than Campbell?


Where, specifically, did I previously claim to be more of an expert than Campbell? 

But on the subject of Winchester scopes, ABSOLUTELY.

  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #16 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:51am
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However, a better account (your opinion) of the whole Winder story is found in M. D. Waite's March, 1978, Rifleman article, "Col. Winder and His Musket."  (Waite was the best of the Rifleman's technical writers from the '60s to the '80s. No Campbellian speculations,(your opinion) just the facts.) your opinion stated as facts.

While you didn't exactly say "I know more than Campbell" it is certainly inferred. But, of course, that's just my opinion, CF's too I guess.
It would seem Mr. Campbell has done his due diligence in researching his two volumes on the 1885.
You underlined "more", does that mean you think you're equal?
inquiring minds want to know.
Aaron
I've no doubt of your knowledge of most any vintage scope.
I never spoke to Mr. Campbell on that subject.
« Last Edit: Apr 29th, 2018 at 1:11am by Rebel »  

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BP
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #17 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 2:06am
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Redsetter wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:23am:
Rebel wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:15am:
Do you really think you're more of an expert than Campbell?


Where, specifically, did I previously claim to be more of an expert than Campbell? 

But on the subject of Winchester scopes, ABSOLUTELY.


Is this thread about the Winder Musket, or about Winchester scopes?      Undecided
  

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waterman
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #18 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 3:12am
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I found on-line a scanned copy of a National Guard magazine, apparently a quarterly, dated 1911.  One article written by a 1st Lt in the Washington State National Guard referred to Winder rifles.  Another short article by a National Guard officer from Montana referred to an indoor Winder range where his troops practiced in the winter.  There were adverts from the Winder Target Company in Ohio.  Owned by Charles W himself, they sold targets and maybe some backstop equipment.  They also advertised range design services.

Anyhow, the term Winder was in wide use in National Guard circles in 1911.  Even then, it probably did not matter what the Winchester firm or catalog called them.  Their customers required Winder Muskets (or rifles). 

Early on, most of the organized shooting was done with Long Rifle cartridges.  Some shooting was done outdoors, at 100 yards and even at 200 yards. It was not until WW1, with the US Army's purchases of Model 87 muskets and boxcars full of Shorts and BB Caps that most of the rifles were fitted with barrels rifled for Shorts.

The 1st and 2nd Model "Winder Muskets" must have Krag rear sights and must be in .22 Long Rifle or Short rimfire.  Anything else is just a Winchester Single Shot Musket.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #19 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 3:26am
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Waterman,

You reminded me of a chat I had with an old Army Drill Sergeant back at Ft. Belvoir. There were some old multi-story brick buildings there that were used as barracks. We were prowling around through the attics of those buildings one evening, and he mentioned that those attics had once been used as indoor rimfire rifle ranges. Records may be available from a Post historian.

  

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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #20 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 4:16am
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The first .22 rimfires used as military marksmanship training rifles were US Navy Model 1870 rolling block rifles. 100+ were converted to .22 Short rimfire by Winchester.  Probably in the mid-1880s.

After that, the whole Stevens-Pope Krag conversion business (1901-1905) and the Krag Gallery Practice Rifle (1908-1910).  The early Gallery Practice Rifles were not accurate, .226" groove diameter and 18" twist.  I used one in our club's 2009 smallbore prone league.  I was lucky to keep everything in the 8-ring when matches were won by X-ring count.  The GPR actions were not case-hardened like the real Krag actions.  They did not operate smoothly.  If you want a .22 rimfire Krag, get a Stevens-Pope.  Present costs are about the same.

After that, about 1909, there was the Hoeffer-Thompson variant of the 1903 Springfield.  It was rifled for .22 Short but had a near-'06 chamber.  BP Shorts were held in steel holders shaped almost like a .30-06 cartridge (but shorter, so a live 06 round would not chamber) and could be fed through the magazine. 
Another terrible idea.  That was what the Winchester Model 87 replaced.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #21 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 9:11am
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How do the Stevens 414 and English miniature rifles fit into this timeline?
Aaron
  

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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #22 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:39pm
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Rebel wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 9:11am:
How do the Stevens 414 and English miniature rifles fit into this timeline?
Aaron


My understanding is that the English miniatures were the first purpose-built smallbore target rifles.  There were converted Martini-Henry military rifles before that, but those were not good enough for real target competition.  The first English miniatures (Martini-style) showed up here in 1900 or 1901, depending on which story came first.

My guess is that the Stevens 414 came along about 1910 or 1912.  I think it was comparable to a Second Model Winder for the shooter who did not need a specific military association (National Guard team or some such).  The receiver sight on the Stevens 414 is a lot better than struggling to adjust the Krag rear sight.

I have a Model 87 (3rd Model Winder) that has been fitted with a 2nd Model barrel, d&t for the Krag sight right up against the receiver.  I have a Krag sight, so I installed it.  It was terrible when compared with the Lyman 53 that came on the Model 87.  The sight on the 414 would have been about as good as the Lyman 53.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #23 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 1:15pm
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waterman wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:39pm:
My guess is that the Stevens 414 came along about 1910 or 1912. 


Grant said first listed in catalog #52, which would be about 1910. But my 52 doesn't contain it, so Grant's 52 must have been a revised ed., as Stevens frequently issued.  It's in #53, mine dated 1912.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #24 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 2:07pm
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BP wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 1:47pm:
Redsetter,
Since you state that "For the record, Cambells's long (and, for the purpose of his book, quite irrelevant) discussion of Winchester scopes was chock full of misinterpretations & outright inventions" , you have the perfect opportunity to start a new topic on this forum to correct all of the misinterpretations & outright inventions you've found in Campbell's books.
Many of us will look forward to seeing all the corrections that you are able to post.


You'll find them presented in a more convenient format, with photos, etc., in the 2007 Gun Digest.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #25 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 5:29pm
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BP wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 3:10pm:
I have both of Campbell's books, so the referenced page numbers with the "misinterpretations & outright inventions" you've claimed exist would definitely be helpful to myself and many others on this forum.


Get out your notebook, & Vol. 2.

Page 194--re: "fire-saled" A5s, allegedly due to quality-control issues.  No-most of these were military-purchased scopes used for purposes other than sniper issue, such as artillery bore scopes, which were auctioned off after WWI. 

Page 195--here begins his reiteration of the Prof. Hastings myth of "compensating errors."  Talk to a competent optical engineer (which I did): sheer marketing nonsense.  Anybody with an optical bench can measure the characteristics of a lens system--there are no "secrets" to be hidden.

Page 196-7--here is presented his crackpot theory of a "trick lens system" contrived not by the Prof but copied from the Cummins Duplex scope.  (Which you can learn more about in GD 2005, if you're interested.)  His bizarre misinterpretation of the ray-tracing shown in the Cummins patent drawing reveals that he must have been too busy theorizing to consult an elementary optics manual that would have explained what he was looking at in this drawing.  '"I'm sure to get myself in trouble on this one too."  Serious scholars of anything usually take pains to avoid getting themselves "in trouble" with uninformed speculation.

Page 197--"purchased Stevens Scope Co."  Need I say more?

Page 221--another reference to the nonsense of "optical trickery" again.

Incidentally, much of what appeared in this A5 discussion bears a rather remarkable resemblance to two papers which appeared in the May & July, 1998, issues of the SSJ; that's several months prior to the publication of Vol. 2.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #26 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 6:49pm
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due to customer complaints, all posts that don't seem to relate to winder muskets  have been deleted.  Sorry if i got rid of anything of value.

-06
  

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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #27 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 7:07pm
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Thank you,
Aaron
  

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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #28 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 7:16pm
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Red, in reply 25, referencing Page 194 of Campbell's second Winchester single shot book, you mention A5's used as artillery bore scopes, I have no reference to such. Also, isn't a bore scope used to examine bores? seems they wouldn't work in that application.
Can you provide a source or any explanation?
Thanks,
Aaron
« Last Edit: Apr 29th, 2018 at 8:10pm by Rebel »  

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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #29 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 8:56pm
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The Winchester A5 telescope sight belongs in a separate thread.  But all the business about offsetting inaccuracies should not be blamed on Mr. Campbell.  He was only repeating that which had been in print in some of the firearms classics for 70-plus years. 

Phil Sharpe mentions it in "The Rifle in America" (p.228 in a column headed "Winchester Telescope Sights").  That book has a copyright date of 1938 and was written earlier. 

Townsend Whelen discusses the Winchester A5 telescopic sight in much detail in his 1918 book "The American Rifle".  He gives detailed instructions on disassembling the A5 and putting it back together again.  And does not mention any offsetting inaccuracies.

Our definition of "bore scopes" has shifted enormously in the last 100 years.  Now we are referring to some gizmo that makes it possible to examine our rifle bores in minute detail. 

In 1917, a bore scope was inserted into the bore of an artillery piece and was used to align the sights of the cannon with a distant aiming point, much as a rifle is "bore-sighted" today.  They may well have been used in conjunction with a "sub-caliber firing device".  The ones I learned about in the Navy in December 1961 were the barreled actions of a .30-40 Krag rifle inserted into the breech of an artillery piece.  We still had latter-day Krag ammunition in storage.
  
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