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CW
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Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:59pm
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What does it take to be a real Winder Musket?
I have been working on a one page info sheet that would define what is and is not a Winder Musket.
The term Winder Musket gets thrown around a lot and often used for muskets of any pedigree.

Just for fun yesterday in talking with a friend who has both Campbell books I emailed him a half dozen cut and paste links to the on line auctions with "winder" rifles.
High walls, 32 calibers, two bands, no flaming bomb, first model muskets, muskets marked 22 long rifle and other odd items of suspect interest.

I have the big Winchester 1 of 1000 Madis book and two others of his.

So far only third model muskets contracted to the government with the acceptance of the flaming bomb, and chambered in 22 short are Winders. True the gov. did receive 1885 Muskets before the Winder contract, and they were in various reconfiguration. Campbell writes the third model musket, gov. "Winders" are all cut down highwalls. If so, can be checked by measuring the outside tang width and the inside tang with.
I am just getting started  ....

Anyone want to weigh in?
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #1 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 3:44pm
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I would like to know since I have one as you described.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #2 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 5:22pm
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CW wrote on Apr 18th, 2018 at 2:59pm:
What does it take to be a real Winder Musket?


Important to understand that WRA never used that term--WRA merely called them .22 Muskets.  Winder's sole contribution was persuading WRA to make a .22 musket with a military style rear sight--because use for indoor training by NG troops was supposed to be its main purpose--a standard catalog option.  Before then, exactly the same rifle could have been ordered, but it would have been a special order.  Making it a standard catalog option was supposed to ensure uniformity when they were purchased by NG or other military units.

The 3rd model was however given a special designation all its own, probably because of its unique construction--a converted HW rcvr.:  Model 87.  This model dispensed with the military rear sight.  Why "87" was chosen, nobody knows.   

And by the way, WRA never used the term "Model 1885."  It was merely the Winchester Single Shot.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #3 - Apr 18th, 2018 at 6:49pm
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I've been trying to sort out the Winder tales for some years.  Here is my version: 

Winchester made .22 rimfire muskets about as soon as the Single Shot Musket was listed in their catalog, but did not sell many.  The early ones (both in Short and later in Long Rifle) were fitted with 2 bands and left-over sights from the Hotchkiss rifles (all that, more or less). 

Winchester was busy, but paid attention to potential markets.  In 1900, "military miniature rifle shooting" (what evolved into 4-position smallbore indoor and outdoor shooting) was brought to the US.  Certainly, the Winchester R&D guys looked at the emerging market with the High Wall musket in mind. 

Stevens also watched the emerging market.  Within a year or two, Stevens was producing the Stevens-Pope .22 LR barrels for the Krag service rifle.  Winder & several other National Guard officers bought them (probably with state funds) and converted several dozens of Krags to .22 LR.

Using Krags as .22 training rifles produced very positive results, but in 1904, Winder & the others got into trouble for converting Krag service rifles without authorization.  That is when Winder got a Winchester Single Shot Musket for himself. Did he buy it?  Did Winchester give it to him?  Did Winchester put the Krag sight on a 2-band musket or did Winder do it himself?  In any event, a 2-band High Wall in .22 Long Rifle with a Krag rear sight is now a First Model Winder.

After using his rifle, Winder wrote to Winchester suggesting some modifications.  Winchester management liked Winder's ideas and hired him as a consultant.  The Second Model has one band, a perch-belly military forearm and a Krag rear sight mounted directly ahead of the High Wall action.  They were made in both .22 Short (mainly for indoor use) and in .22 LR.  My 2nd Model barrel (on a 3rd Model) is slightly larger in diameter at the breech end and with a marginally different taper than the later 3rd Models.  A 3rd Model forearm does not fit.  Winchester made the 2nd Model Winder for 10+ years, but did not sell too many, maybe 8,000?

The 3rd Model, with High Wall actions milled to Low Wall profile, and with a Lyman 53 rear sight, was produced  in .22 Short for military contracts from December 1917 through November 1918.  Those in Long Rifle (with or without flaming bombs) were probably assembled post-war from parts on hand.  They were sold thru the DCM and by Winchester.  Maybe 17,000 total?
  
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CW
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #4 - Apr 19th, 2018 at 9:41am
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In a narrow sense I think we have a good idea what defines a Winder, but it seems it is the exceptions that are in question.

In poking around the internet I found a 10-14 year old thread posting on Rimfire Central with a lot of reference to a book that was to be published. The poster went by BERT and was in the PNW or maybe Washington area.  The book sounded like it was to cover not only the Winder, but all things Winchester Singleshot.  Does anyone know about this book or if it was published?
The old RFC thread had some good info but the pictures in Photo Bucket were long gone.
Thanks. CW
« Last Edit: Apr 19th, 2018 at 10:08am by CW »  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #5 - Apr 19th, 2018 at 11:23am
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CW wrote on Apr 19th, 2018 at 9:41am:
In poking around the internet I found a 10-14 year old thread posting on Rimfire Central with a lot of reference to a book that was to be published. The poster went by BERT and was in the PNW or maybe Washington area.


That's Bert, the chief moderator of the Winchester Collectors forum, in Wa. state.  The Win SS is his specialty, but he never so far as I know produced a work on it alone.  He's a gold mine, however, of info about them.  What he did publish is the Red Book of Win. values.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #6 - Apr 20th, 2018 at 1:15pm
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I have a lot to go through. So far I have done a rough cut and paste of much of the internet data I can find.  Bert, it seems, is a wealth of information!

There are a few books and publications I may want to track down. One that I clearly can not afford just for the Winder info is an out of print copy of Thomas Batha's book U.S. Martial .22RF Rifles.  Another that some of you may have (I don't) is the Winter 2010 Collector magazine.
If any of you have these and are able to help with out copyright infringement, can you quote anything from them that would help define what is and is NOT Winder Winchester factory production.

Thanks, CW
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #7 - Apr 20th, 2018 at 2:08pm
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CW wrote on Apr 20th, 2018 at 1:15pm:
If any of you have these and are able to help with out copyright infringement, can you quote anything from them that would help define what is and is NOT Winder Winchester factory production.

Thanks, CW


Seems pretty clear to me now merely from the preceding comments.  Some WRA document that defines the specifications?  It doesn't exist, because as I previously pointed out, WRA did NOT use "Winder" as applied to anything--it's collector's terminology.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #8 - Apr 20th, 2018 at 3:51pm
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Redsetter wrote on Apr 20th, 2018 at 2:08pm:
CW wrote on Apr 20th, 2018 at 1:15pm:
If any of you have these and are able to help with out copyright infringement, can you quote anything from them that would help define what is and is NOT Winder Winchester factory production.

Thanks, CW


Seems pretty clear to me now merely from the preceding comments.  Some WRA document that defines the specifications?  It doesn't exist, because as I previously pointed out, WRA did NOT use "Winder" as applied to anything--it's collector's terminology.

Correct and I fully agree. Winchester never used that term and that may be the final answer. BUT, it is not my question exactly. Us laymen use the term and rifles are listed FS as Winders, I intend to answer my question as to a good working definition. As an example, a Highwall musket in 32WF sold as a Winder.
« Last Edit: Apr 20th, 2018 at 4:05pm by CW »  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #9 - Apr 20th, 2018 at 5:31pm
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CW wrote on Apr 20th, 2018 at 3:51pm:
As an example, a Highwall musket in 32WF sold as a Winder.


An ignorant misuse of the term; although probably (because of the senselessness of that cartridge in a musket) quite a rare chambering.   
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #10 - Apr 20th, 2018 at 8:28pm
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Waterman - I read your post when you posted it and now again having put in many hours reading about the subject, your post takes on a new meaning.
You have raised a few items I don't think I have encountered yet.

More later
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #11 - Apr 24th, 2018 at 3:46pm
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Redsetter wrote on Apr 20th, 2018 at 2:08pm:
CW wrote on Apr 20th, 2018 at 1:15pm:
If any of you have these and are able to help with out copyright infringement, can you quote anything from them that would help define what is and is NOT Winder Winchester factory production.

Thanks, CW


Seems pretty clear to me now merely from the preceding comments.  Some WRA document that defines the specifications?  It doesn't exist, because as I previously pointed out, WRA did NOT use "Winder" as applied to anything--it's collector's terminology.

Having now read the 2010 winter issue of the Winchester Arms Collector, it is pretty clear there was a Gov contract with a contract number and specifications for what they were buying from Winchester. There is a lot of good data in that issue.

Also, to put this into perspective, knowing something about the timeline and relationship Charlies Winder had with Winchester is very helpful.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #12 - Apr 28th, 2018 at 6:24pm
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John Campbell wrote an article titled "What's A Winder?" for an internet online magazine called "Single Shot Online."  His take is that Winchester started building muskets from 1886 onward but they were not Winders until 1904.  Charles Winder was with the Ohio National Guard and looking told Winchester which was actually working towards that same idea.  The first "Winder Musket" was shipped to Winder in Nov 1904.  Winder recommended some improvements which Winchester general manager Bennett like and adopted.  In 1905, Winchester started shipping the Winder Musket but it was never called the Winder.  So according to Campbell, to be a true Winder, the rifle has to be barreled in a .22 RF cartridge. It also was made up of cut down high wall receivers with the large barrel shank and same tang thickness.  It should also have the Lyman 41 sight.  Early ones were in .22 short, used flat spring actions and had 2 barrel bands.  They moved to coil spring actions around 1908 and went to a perch belly forearm with one band.  Production stopped around 1920.  In 1917 they began calling them the Model 87 and they were on coil spring actions and most were in .22 LR. 
I bought a .22 LR HW musket to build my .22 silhouette rifle from but it was not a Winder.  I've seen these muskets in 32-20, 45-70 and at a Cabela's a few years ago, a mint musket take down in 45-90.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #13 - Apr 28th, 2018 at 9:56pm
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Old-Win wrote on Apr 28th, 2018 at 6:24pm:
So according to Campbell, to be a true Winder, the rifle has to be barreled in a .22 RF cartridge. It also was made up of cut down high wall receivers with the large barrel shank and same tang thickness.


No--only the 3rd model, the so-called Model 87, was built with a cut down high wall receiver. (Should have been done at the outset of the Winder saga, because chambering a HW  for .22 RF is idiotic.)  WRA did this, rather than use LW rcvrs.,  because, it is believed, there was a surplus of unfinished HW rcvrs. in the parts bins, and the 87 was seen as a way to use them up, despite the extra machine work required.

Campbell described all this in Vol. 1 of his two SS books.  However, a better account of the whole Winder story is found in M. D. Waite's March, 1978, Rifleman article, "Col. Winder and His Musket."  (Waite was the best of the Rifleman's technical writers from the '60s to the '80s. No Campbellian speculations, just the facts.) 

  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #14 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:15am
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Red, I respect your knowledge, but you do state your opinion as if it's indisputable fact, and argue with anyone who differs.
Do you really think you're more of an expert than Campbell?
Aaron
  

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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #15 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:23am
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Rebel wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:15am:
Do you really think you're more of an expert than Campbell?


Where, specifically, did I previously claim to be more of an expert than Campbell? 

But on the subject of Winchester scopes, ABSOLUTELY.

  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #16 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:51am
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However, a better account (your opinion) of the whole Winder story is found in M. D. Waite's March, 1978, Rifleman article, "Col. Winder and His Musket."  (Waite was the best of the Rifleman's technical writers from the '60s to the '80s. No Campbellian speculations,(your opinion) just the facts.) your opinion stated as facts.

While you didn't exactly say "I know more than Campbell" it is certainly inferred. But, of course, that's just my opinion, CF's too I guess.
It would seem Mr. Campbell has done his due diligence in researching his two volumes on the 1885.
You underlined "more", does that mean you think you're equal?
inquiring minds want to know.
Aaron
I've no doubt of your knowledge of most any vintage scope.
I never spoke to Mr. Campbell on that subject.
« Last Edit: Apr 29th, 2018 at 1:11am by Rebel »  

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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #17 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 2:06am
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Redsetter wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:23am:
Rebel wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:15am:
Do you really think you're more of an expert than Campbell?


Where, specifically, did I previously claim to be more of an expert than Campbell? 

But on the subject of Winchester scopes, ABSOLUTELY.


Is this thread about the Winder Musket, or about Winchester scopes?      Undecided
  

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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #18 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 3:12am
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I found on-line a scanned copy of a National Guard magazine, apparently a quarterly, dated 1911.  One article written by a 1st Lt in the Washington State National Guard referred to Winder rifles.  Another short article by a National Guard officer from Montana referred to an indoor Winder range where his troops practiced in the winter.  There were adverts from the Winder Target Company in Ohio.  Owned by Charles W himself, they sold targets and maybe some backstop equipment.  They also advertised range design services.

Anyhow, the term Winder was in wide use in National Guard circles in 1911.  Even then, it probably did not matter what the Winchester firm or catalog called them.  Their customers required Winder Muskets (or rifles). 

Early on, most of the organized shooting was done with Long Rifle cartridges.  Some shooting was done outdoors, at 100 yards and even at 200 yards. It was not until WW1, with the US Army's purchases of Model 87 muskets and boxcars full of Shorts and BB Caps that most of the rifles were fitted with barrels rifled for Shorts.

The 1st and 2nd Model "Winder Muskets" must have Krag rear sights and must be in .22 Long Rifle or Short rimfire.  Anything else is just a Winchester Single Shot Musket.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #19 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 3:26am
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Waterman,

You reminded me of a chat I had with an old Army Drill Sergeant back at Ft. Belvoir. There were some old multi-story brick buildings there that were used as barracks. We were prowling around through the attics of those buildings one evening, and he mentioned that those attics had once been used as indoor rimfire rifle ranges. Records may be available from a Post historian.

  

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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #20 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 4:16am
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The first .22 rimfires used as military marksmanship training rifles were US Navy Model 1870 rolling block rifles. 100+ were converted to .22 Short rimfire by Winchester.  Probably in the mid-1880s.

After that, the whole Stevens-Pope Krag conversion business (1901-1905) and the Krag Gallery Practice Rifle (1908-1910).  The early Gallery Practice Rifles were not accurate, .226" groove diameter and 18" twist.  I used one in our club's 2009 smallbore prone league.  I was lucky to keep everything in the 8-ring when matches were won by X-ring count.  The GPR actions were not case-hardened like the real Krag actions.  They did not operate smoothly.  If you want a .22 rimfire Krag, get a Stevens-Pope.  Present costs are about the same.

After that, about 1909, there was the Hoeffer-Thompson variant of the 1903 Springfield.  It was rifled for .22 Short but had a near-'06 chamber.  BP Shorts were held in steel holders shaped almost like a .30-06 cartridge (but shorter, so a live 06 round would not chamber) and could be fed through the magazine. 
Another terrible idea.  That was what the Winchester Model 87 replaced.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #21 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 9:11am
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How do the Stevens 414 and English miniature rifles fit into this timeline?
Aaron
  

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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #22 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:39pm
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Rebel wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 9:11am:
How do the Stevens 414 and English miniature rifles fit into this timeline?
Aaron


My understanding is that the English miniatures were the first purpose-built smallbore target rifles.  There were converted Martini-Henry military rifles before that, but those were not good enough for real target competition.  The first English miniatures (Martini-style) showed up here in 1900 or 1901, depending on which story came first.

My guess is that the Stevens 414 came along about 1910 or 1912.  I think it was comparable to a Second Model Winder for the shooter who did not need a specific military association (National Guard team or some such).  The receiver sight on the Stevens 414 is a lot better than struggling to adjust the Krag rear sight.

I have a Model 87 (3rd Model Winder) that has been fitted with a 2nd Model barrel, d&t for the Krag sight right up against the receiver.  I have a Krag sight, so I installed it.  It was terrible when compared with the Lyman 53 that came on the Model 87.  The sight on the 414 would have been about as good as the Lyman 53.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #23 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 1:15pm
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waterman wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 12:39pm:
My guess is that the Stevens 414 came along about 1910 or 1912. 


Grant said first listed in catalog #52, which would be about 1910. But my 52 doesn't contain it, so Grant's 52 must have been a revised ed., as Stevens frequently issued.  It's in #53, mine dated 1912.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #24 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 2:07pm
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BP wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 1:47pm:
Redsetter,
Since you state that "For the record, Cambells's long (and, for the purpose of his book, quite irrelevant) discussion of Winchester scopes was chock full of misinterpretations & outright inventions" , you have the perfect opportunity to start a new topic on this forum to correct all of the misinterpretations & outright inventions you've found in Campbell's books.
Many of us will look forward to seeing all the corrections that you are able to post.


You'll find them presented in a more convenient format, with photos, etc., in the 2007 Gun Digest.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #25 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 5:29pm
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BP wrote on Apr 29th, 2018 at 3:10pm:
I have both of Campbell's books, so the referenced page numbers with the "misinterpretations & outright inventions" you've claimed exist would definitely be helpful to myself and many others on this forum.


Get out your notebook, & Vol. 2.

Page 194--re: "fire-saled" A5s, allegedly due to quality-control issues.  No-most of these were military-purchased scopes used for purposes other than sniper issue, such as artillery bore scopes, which were auctioned off after WWI. 

Page 195--here begins his reiteration of the Prof. Hastings myth of "compensating errors."  Talk to a competent optical engineer (which I did): sheer marketing nonsense.  Anybody with an optical bench can measure the characteristics of a lens system--there are no "secrets" to be hidden.

Page 196-7--here is presented his crackpot theory of a "trick lens system" contrived not by the Prof but copied from the Cummins Duplex scope.  (Which you can learn more about in GD 2005, if you're interested.)  His bizarre misinterpretation of the ray-tracing shown in the Cummins patent drawing reveals that he must have been too busy theorizing to consult an elementary optics manual that would have explained what he was looking at in this drawing.  '"I'm sure to get myself in trouble on this one too."  Serious scholars of anything usually take pains to avoid getting themselves "in trouble" with uninformed speculation.

Page 197--"purchased Stevens Scope Co."  Need I say more?

Page 221--another reference to the nonsense of "optical trickery" again.

Incidentally, much of what appeared in this A5 discussion bears a rather remarkable resemblance to two papers which appeared in the May & July, 1998, issues of the SSJ; that's several months prior to the publication of Vol. 2.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #26 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 6:49pm
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due to customer complaints, all posts that don't seem to relate to winder muskets  have been deleted.  Sorry if i got rid of anything of value.

-06
  

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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #27 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 7:07pm
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Thank you,
Aaron
  

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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #28 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 7:16pm
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Red, in reply 25, referencing Page 194 of Campbell's second Winchester single shot book, you mention A5's used as artillery bore scopes, I have no reference to such. Also, isn't a bore scope used to examine bores? seems they wouldn't work in that application.
Can you provide a source or any explanation?
Thanks,
Aaron
« Last Edit: Apr 29th, 2018 at 8:10pm by Rebel »  

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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #29 - Apr 29th, 2018 at 8:56pm
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The Winchester A5 telescope sight belongs in a separate thread.  But all the business about offsetting inaccuracies should not be blamed on Mr. Campbell.  He was only repeating that which had been in print in some of the firearms classics for 70-plus years. 

Phil Sharpe mentions it in "The Rifle in America" (p.228 in a column headed "Winchester Telescope Sights").  That book has a copyright date of 1938 and was written earlier. 

Townsend Whelen discusses the Winchester A5 telescopic sight in much detail in his 1918 book "The American Rifle".  He gives detailed instructions on disassembling the A5 and putting it back together again.  And does not mention any offsetting inaccuracies.

Our definition of "bore scopes" has shifted enormously in the last 100 years.  Now we are referring to some gizmo that makes it possible to examine our rifle bores in minute detail. 

In 1917, a bore scope was inserted into the bore of an artillery piece and was used to align the sights of the cannon with a distant aiming point, much as a rifle is "bore-sighted" today.  They may well have been used in conjunction with a "sub-caliber firing device".  The ones I learned about in the Navy in December 1961 were the barreled actions of a .30-40 Krag rifle inserted into the breech of an artillery piece.  We still had latter-day Krag ammunition in storage.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #30 - May 11th, 2018 at 11:10pm
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Having read as much as I can find or afford on Winders, and my question was 'what is and is not a Winder Musket?; at this point I think that it might be easier to rule out what isn't a Winder.

In general, from December 1904 forward, Winchester single shot muskets chambered for any 22rf might be fairly called a Winder musket.

At this point, having read everything I can, I would be hard pressed to call out the exceptions. However, I am sure there are a small few.
Anyone care to check my thinking here? Friendly please!
( I now have a lot of data)
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #31 - May 11th, 2018 at 11:23pm
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I should have added that 1904 is when Charlies Winder and Winchester began an official association to produce a standard training musket.
« Last Edit: May 12th, 2018 at 8:33am by CW »  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #32 - May 12th, 2018 at 4:10am
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I would add that the sights must be a U.S. Krag rear sight (any model) in the 1st or 2nd Model (or D&T for same), or it must be a 3rd Model with 4 holes in the right side of the action (if lacking the Lyman sight).  Also must be either Short or Long Rifle, not WRF or Extra Long.

  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #33 - May 12th, 2018 at 8:50am
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Some of the earliest first variation Winder Muskets have forward mounted Hotchkiss barrel sights. The pictures show them to be mounted about 3-4 inches in front of the receiver ring.
"Also must be either Short or Long Rifle, not WRF or Extra Long."
Good call on that. Just one Winder was found marked 22 Long. All others being 22 Short  or  22 Long Rifle.
 
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #34 - May 12th, 2018 at 9:37am
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If they have Hotchkiss sights, they are pre-Winders.  His first requirement was that the musket have Krag sights.  They were intended as National Guard training rifles.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #35 - May 12th, 2018 at 10:08am
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Thanks for pointing that out. The point you make is exactly why I am posting this thread in the first place.
Because "Winder" is a reference and not a model, there is a lot of subjective interpretation here. 
I understand your thinking and am happy to go along with it.

However.....

A few sources include these Hotchkiss sight rifles in the early transition and suggest this is what Winchester was providing to Winder and all as standard.This info is sourced from Campbell. 

You are right, Winder did not want the Hotchkiss, too crude for the task.

Shortly in to it, still early on, according to M.D.Waite, a Winchester factory sightless Winder rifle could be special ordered without the Hotchkiss, but drilled and taped for the Krag sight, and the buyer would have to provide the Krag rear sight.

There is more on this area of early developmental Winders written by Bert Hartman and I will try to post some of the later.  Gota go.
Thanks for posting. I am looking for this kind of trouble shooting. Keep it coming.
« Last Edit: May 12th, 2018 at 10:40am by CW »  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #36 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 11:16pm
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Hi ,I just found this post . I have a Winder Musket as was researched by Bert ,a Great Guy by the way. Last year I somehow found out on the Rimfire Central website that a Gentleman named Bert was collecting imfo. on these rifles , so I sent him everything I had on mine and he got back to me with this  ;  Your Winder Musket was one of the 11,419 that were delivered to the U.S. Army's Springfield Armory. The really nice thing about it, is the serial number is early enough that the original Winchester ledger records for it still exist (at the Cody Firearms Museum). Per those records, it was received in the warehouse on July 30th 1918, and shipped on September 20th, 1918, on order number 846520T. It was part of the 6,289 that were shipped per contract P3745-1549Sa of May 15, 1918. Regards ,Bert
So if any of you guys want to get a Letter from Winchester I'll give you the rest of the imfo. to see if the Sights were on it when it lafe the factory. Regards , Bruce


« Last Edit: Aug 1st, 2018 at 12:01am by OldRvr »  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #37 - Aug 19th, 2018 at 6:12pm
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OldRvr wrote on Jul 31st, 2018 at 11:16pm:
Hi ,I just found this post . I have a Winder Musket as was researched by Bert ,a Great Guy by the way. Last year I somehow found out on the Rimfire Central website that a Gentleman named Bert was collecting imfo. on these rifles , so I sent him everything I had on mine and he got back to me with this  ;  Your Winder Musket was one of the 11,419 that were delivered to the U.S. Army's Springfield Armory. The really nice thing about it, is the serial number is early enough that the original Winchester ledger records for it still exist (at the Cody Firearms Museum). Per those records, it was received in the warehouse on July 30th 1918, and shipped on September 20th, 1918, on order number 846520T. It was part of the 6,289 that were shipped per contract P3745-1549Sa of May 15, 1918. Regards ,Bert
So if any of you guys want to get a Letter from Winchester I'll give you the rest of the imfo. to see if the Sights were on it when it lafe the factory. Regards , Bruce




I'm guessing that yours must be a 3rd Model, with the action milled to Low Wall profile.  Aslo, what is the general range of your serial number?  Not exact, but the first three digits (example 126,XXX).  And a photo showing the right side of the rifle, if you would.  Thanks.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #38 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 12:13am
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waterman wrote on Aug 19th, 2018 at 6:12pm:
Not exact, but the first three digits (example 126,XXX).


Why not "exact"?  Indulge in that silliness on the Winchester Collectors Forum (of which Bert is the Chief Sachem), & other members will inflict the derision such foolishness deserves.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #39 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 3:08pm
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Speaking of misrepresentation, etc in Campbell's books.

Some things are pure fantasy or maybe the way he thought things ought to be.
An example is the metallurgy of the late receivers. The data is correct however the representation of origin is not.

I didn't work for any of the organizations he claimed in vol 1 or vol 2. I simply had a good relationship with the metallurgist at Pacific Machinery and Tool Steel back when they still had the emission spectrograph operational. I provided a piece of the top tang and he 'shot' it and provided me with the analysis nicely printed on line printer paper.

My job had nothing to do with metallurgy. I spent most of my career supervising the feed and fertilizer analysis for the WA. state Dept of Ag. The analysis was meant to keep the dealers honest. Sometimes it worked sometimes not depending on politics.
As a side comment only a few dealers mean to cheat: an off analysis is more often the result of incompetence, inattention, stupidity, low wages, the list goes on and on.
  
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Re: Winder Musket - do you know what one is?
Reply #40 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 7:43pm
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Redsetter wrote on Aug 20th, 2018 at 12:13am:
waterman wrote on Aug 19th, 2018 at 6:12pm:
Not exact, but the first three digits (example 126,XXX).


Why not "exact"?  Indulge in that silliness on the Winchester Collectors Forum (of which Bert is the Chief Sachem), & other members will inflict the derision such foolishness deserves.


My interest is in the SPAN of SNs shipped in any particular batch, not in the SN itself.  If the subject rifle is included in both the Winchester records and the specific contract data, that provides some sort of time marker.  I could compare that with the SNs of my three Model 87 Single Shots to get some idea of the year of assembly. 

But with Gov't contract training rifles, there is no great assurance that receivers were selected in numerical order.  Put the Military Training Rifle contracts in context with everything that Winchester did during the 1914-1919 period.  The contracts were far less than 0.02 of 1 % of Winchester's business.  Williamson's economic history covers a lot and does not even mention those contracts.  Winchester made hundreds of thousands of P14s, almost half a million Model 1917s, almost 50,000 Model 1918 BARs, military versions of the 1897 and 1912 (?) shotguns, plus military versions of the 1907 and 1910 WSL rifles, plus the 236,000 Russian contract 1895s, plus the 1917 Browning machine guns, plus a bunch of special equipment, artillery parts, sights, etc., etc.  Plus continuing to offer their whole catalog of civilian guns, plus doing the developmental work on the Model 52 bolt action .22 target rifle and what would eventually become the Model 54 in .30-06.

They did all that with employees who were not trained to the same level of skill as normal peacetime employees.  The days of the Single Shot were over. It was an economic loser.  The Training Rifle contract gave Winchester an excuse to use up what would have been surplus parts.  As time progressed, the work got sloppier.  My highest number (very near the end of the line, > 132,000) is a far less desirable rifle than either of my lower numbered 87s.  I believe the stories about no heat treating, etc.  They were putting together military training rifles with parts that would otherwise be surplus or scrap, and turned them out with less-than-usual attention to detail.  That they work and shoot as well as they do is a tribute to a really good design.
« Last Edit: Aug 20th, 2018 at 7:48pm by waterman »  
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