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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 32-20 for bear (Read 2857 times)
J Louis
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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #105 - May 16th, 2018 at 2:58pm
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Bob Z what did you end up doing with that Bear to preserve all of the memories of that Hunt. Bear Rug, Head Mount or possibly something other than. If you happen to have any pictures I would surely enjoy seeing one or two of them if possible and a picture of the Rifle you used as well.

JLouis
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #106 - May 16th, 2018 at 4:52pm
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BP wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 1:49pm:
Bob,
What was the RB's path through that bear, and what alloy were you using?
The 32-20 used to be factory loaded with a flat-nosed "full patch" bullet. Have only run across a couple of original loaded samples, not enough to try penetration comparisons.



The path was through the chest; bottom of one lung, through the heart and the top of the other lung. The round ball was .54 caliber, which is about 225 grains.  It was cast 50:1.  I used 140 grains FFg and it was traveling about 1800 fps according to my Ohler 33 chrono.  The energy was about 300 foot pounds lower than a 150 gr 30-30.  It was about 5 times the energy of a 32-20  Grin

I used this (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) to estimate the energy allowing the 115 gr 32-20 1,000 fps. It would have about twice the energy of a 22 LR.  Roll Eyes  I did not calculate energy for any custom 32-20 bear rifles with fast twist for heavy bullets.  It would be easier to just use a 32-40 or 32 Special if one was stuck on .32 caliber  Roll Eyes  .32 ACP might be a good alternative.  At least you could get lots of shots off quicker  Huh

John, He became a rug.  I'm sure I have some pictures in a box of slides somewhere. That was long before digital in the late 80s.
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #107 - May 16th, 2018 at 5:10pm
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Those "full metal jacket" 32-20s were apparently intended for use by trappers that needed to kill trapped critters but did not want to damage pelts more than with bullet hole(s) or carry a handgun. Expect they were lower velocity than normal 1300 fps --  never seen any data. Seem to recall there were similarly purposed 44-40 and 30-30 loads.
  
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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #108 - May 16th, 2018 at 6:29pm
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svartkruttgris#369 wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 5:10pm:
Those "full metal jacket" 32-20s were apparently intended for use by trappers that needed to kill trapped critters but did not want to damage pelts more than with bullet hole(s) or carry a handgun. Expect they were lower velocity than normal 1300 fps --  never seen any data. Seem to recall there were similarly purposed 44-40 and 30-30 loads.

WRA shows the same 20 grains of black powder used for standard velocity loads with either lead, soft-point, or full patch bullet configuration.
The Model 1892 Special W.H.V. loading was available with a 115 grain bullet in either soft point or full patch configuration.
Trappers would occassionally slip a 32 S&W or 32 S&W Long cartridge into the 32-20 chamber, when needed, to dispatch trapped wild-cats etc to keep down the chances of getting clawed up or chewed up.
Any extra hole in a pelt reduced the value received from the fur buyers, and so were always avoided by any means if it was at all possible to do so.
  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #109 - May 16th, 2018 at 7:24pm
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Some "high end" 32-20 load energies from  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

130 gr LBT Long Flat Nose at 1500 fps 649 ft-lbs at muzzle; slightly higher velocity than what my turkey load may be this season.

150 gr 1650 fps 906 ft-lbs at muzzle; more chamber pressure than I would want to use in my old Win LW. From Paco Kelly's 32-20 article.

For careful brain shots on undisturbed, average sized black bear, adequate. Then you will be stuck with a dead bear -- no more fun!! Hope you are close to road or have at least one big strong helper and good drag system (bears have no natural handholds).

For angry BIG black bear, chased by dogs, fighting dogs, forget it!! Get a 348 Win Lever Gun, or some such.

  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #110 - May 16th, 2018 at 7:28pm
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svartkruttgris#369 wrote on May 9th, 2018 at 4:01pm:
Probably should shoot bear with 32-20 Martini first, in exactly right spot -- should be easy for a guy with a few 250s behind him. DO NOT WAIT till bear is all mad from a few 54 caliber RBs -- bad manners! Cool


I doubt if I should have shot the bear any where with 20 grs of BP and 115 gr bullet rather than 225 gr RB and 140 grs of BP no matter where it hit  Shocked



« Last Edit: May 16th, 2018 at 7:59pm by Schuetzenmiester »  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #111 - May 16th, 2018 at 7:45pm
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BP wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 6:29pm:
svartkruttgris#369 wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 5:10pm:
Those "full metal jacket" 32-20s were apparently intended for use by trappers that needed to kill trapped critters but did not want to damage pelts more than with bullet hole(s) or carry a handgun. Expect they were lower velocity than normal 1300 fps --  never seen any data. Seem to recall there were similarly purposed 44-40 and 30-30 loads.

WRA shows the same 20 grains of black powder used for standard velocity loads with either lead, soft-point, or full patch bullet configuration.
The Model 1892 Special W.H.V. loading was available with a 115 grain bullet in either soft point or full patch configuration.
Trappers would occassionally slip a 32 S&W or 32 S&W Long cartridge into the 32-20 chamber, when needed, to dispatch trapped wild-cats etc to keep down the chances of getting clawed up or chewed up.
Any extra hole in a pelt reduced the value received from the fur buyers, and so were always avoided by any means if it was at all possible to do so.


BP,
Do you have any Winchester literature describing what the "full patch" bullets were intended for? What the demand was?

Several old guys I knew as kid had a partial box of such 32-20 nitro ammo for their 32-20 lever or pump rifles but I never knew what they used it for. Seems they used the 115 grain lead for "everything".
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #112 - May 16th, 2018 at 8:01pm
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Full patch probably refered to full metal jacket in those days.
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #113 - May 16th, 2018 at 8:02pm
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 7:28pm:
svartkruttgris#369 wrote on May 9th, 2018 at 4:01pm:
Probably should shoot bear with 32-20 Martini first, in exactly right spot -- should be easy for a guy with a few 250s behind him. DO NOT WAIT till bear is all mad from a few 54 caliber RBs -- bad manners! Cool


I do it if I should have shot the bear any where with 20 grs of BP and 115 gr bullet rather than 225 gr RB and 140 grs of BP no matter where it hit  Shocked



Shooting angry big bear with RBs most anywhere, other than brain or neck vertibrae, seems historically to not put a quick end to big, bad old bears. I remain surprised, maybe you too, as to why the "dog man" you hired told you to use 44 Mag rather than another .54 RB. We both seem to agree that would have been a better choice. As reported, a full power 44 Mag to shoulder was about as useless as a standard velocity 32-20 would have been.

Just a neutral comment, but, by 1980s when I did all my deer hunting with .54 muzzle loader, all deer and elk hunters I knew of were using TC Maxi balls (conicals) instead of RBs, for .54s and .50s. Most/all(?) were using TC percussion rifles and Maxi balls gave tighter groups than RBs in these "fast twist" rifles. It was as deadly combination as any CF HP deer rifle I ever used.
  
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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #114 - May 16th, 2018 at 8:21pm
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We thought the bear was dead when I shot trying to knock it off the branches.  He wasn't, he was holding on.  Al had a .444 Marlin if the bear decided to chew up the dogs.  He still would not take archers.

Real muzzle loading states did not allow anything but flintlocks.  Why would I want to hunt with a TC and a maxi ball.  May was well use a Browning semi auto in .338  Cheesy

When we got the first ML seasons in WA in the 70s, they had to be traditional style but percussion was allowed.  Commercial interests and modern hunters have invaded muzzle loading seasons here  Cry  I always kept my flintlocks working even in pouring rain.  Shocked I could get close to 100 shots out of a flint.  Try that with a precussion cap or a primer  Undecided

Speaking of angry bears, a friend was treed by one in MT while working for the forest service.  All he had was a timber cruisers axe  Huh
  

"some old things are lovely, warm still with life ... of the forgotten men who made them." - D.H. Lawrence
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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #115 - May 16th, 2018 at 8:27pm
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Gads! Climbing a tree with a timber cruiser's ax while a bear is after you!!
  
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JS47
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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #116 - May 16th, 2018 at 8:45pm
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 8:21pm:
We thought the bear was dead when I shot trying to knock it off the branches.  He wasn't, he was holding on.  Al had a .444 Marlin if the bear decided to chew up the dogs.  He still would not take archers.

Real muzzle loading states did not allow anything but flintlocks.  Why would I want to hunt with a TC and a maxi ball.  May was well use a Browning semi auto in .338  Cheesy

When we got the first ML seasons in WA in the 70s, they had to be traditional style but percussion was allowed.  Commercial interests and modern hunters have invaded muzzle loading seasons here  Cry  I always kept my flintlocks working even in pouring rain.  Shocked I could get close to 100 shots out of a flint.  Try that with a precussion cap or a primer  Undecided

Speaking of angry bears, a friend was treed by one in MT while working for the forest service.  All he had was a timber cruisers axe  Huh


I had a friend in MT treed by a grizzly bear. He got a bit of a bite in the boot that left a bad bruise but pulled loose and sat in the tree until the bear left. I saw both the boot and the bruise.He died a few years ago. His name was Joe L......... ( I don't want to give out his name on the internet since his wife is still around)

JS
  

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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #117 - May 16th, 2018 at 8:47pm
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I dont recall if they took the axe up the tree or not.  Their were 2 of them up there.  The bear was satisfied to just tree them and did not follow them up the tree.
  

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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #118 - May 16th, 2018 at 8:56pm
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 8:01pm:
Full patch probably refered to full metal jacket in those days.
Yep, the WRA "Full Patch" was also sometimes called the "Full Metal Patch" bullet by WRA (depending on how crowded the text space was), and is what later became known as the FMJ bullet.
  

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Re: 32-20 for bear
Reply #119 - May 16th, 2018 at 10:28pm
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svartkruttgris#369 wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 7:45pm:
BP wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 6:29pm:
svartkruttgris#369 wrote on May 16th, 2018 at 5:10pm:
Those "full metal jacket" 32-20s were apparently intended for use by trappers that needed to kill trapped critters but did not want to damage pelts more than with bullet hole(s) or carry a handgun. Expect they were lower velocity than normal 1300 fps --  never seen any data. Seem to recall there were similarly purposed 44-40 and 30-30 loads.

WRA shows the same 20 grains of black powder used for standard velocity loads with either lead, soft-point, or full patch bullet configuration.
The Model 1892 Special W.H.V. loading was available with a 115 grain bullet in either soft point or full patch configuration.
Trappers would occassionally slip a 32 S&W or 32 S&W Long cartridge into the 32-20 chamber, when needed, to dispatch trapped wild-cats etc to keep down the chances of getting clawed up or chewed up.
Any extra hole in a pelt reduced the value received from the fur buyers, and so were always avoided by any means if it was at all possible to do so.


BP,
Do you have any Winchester literature describing what the "full patch" bullets were intended for? What the demand was?

Several old guys I knew as kid had a partial box of such 32-20 nitro ammo for their 32-20 lever or pump rifles but I never knew what they used it for. Seems they used the 115 grain lead for "everything".

The 115 grain bullet was WRA's standard weight for the 32WCF.
WRA also loaded the lighter 100 grain bullets in 32-20 cartridges listed for Marlin and Colt Lightning rifles.

Obviously, the WRA "Full Patch" bullet was intended to be used whenever a shooter felt they had an application that required deeper bullet penetration.

The WRA penetration tables using soft pine boards, each board 7/8" thick, for the WRA 32WCF 115gr standard velocity loading show:
for both the plain Lead and the (jacketed) Soft Point bullets, 6.5 boards
for the Full Patch bullet, 10 boards

For the 32WCF Model 1892 Special W.H.V. loading, the WRA penetration tables show:
for the Soft Point bullet, 7 boards
for the Full Patch bullet, 17 boards

WRA listed the 32WCF Full Patch loading in 1898, and the demand was high enough that WRA continued to list it for about 30 years up to the WRA bankruptcy and the Olin/Western acquisition.
  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
Proud Noodlehead
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