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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not? (Read 4296 times)
Gunfunpow
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Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Jul 17th, 2018 at 3:13pm
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I listed this for sale on GB, but the response has been ho-hum, with yawns. The pros are it's Pope barrel, bullet moulds, false muzzle and starter, all matching. The bore is bright and shiny in 28-30 Pope. Cons are the refinish and lack of iron sights or scope, missing palm rest and loading rod. It does have the breech seater though.
So what I'm wondering is whether or not a prospective buyer would pass on it due to the issues it has, or the fact that it's a Pope would outweigh it's detractions. I feel sights and a palm rest are easily replaced, but the numbers matching accessories, not so much. I wouldn't post it here in the Sale section only because it would have to go to an FFL and I'm a private seller.
  
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Jeff_Schultz
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #1 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 5:17pm
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  Why would it have to go to an FFL?
  

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Redsetter
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #2 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 5:23pm
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Gunfunpow wrote on Jul 17th, 2018 at 3:13pm:
The pros are it's Pope barrel, bullet moulds, false muzzle and starter, all matching. The bore is bright and shiny in 28-30 Pope. Cons are the refinish and lack of iron sights or scope, missing palm rest and loading rod. It does have the breech seater though.


Pros greatly outweigh the cons--as often as not, ALL the accessories have been lost, esp. the false muzzle.

GB is NOT the place to sell such a piece, & no FFL is needed to ship.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #3 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 7:59pm
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All Ballard rifles are antique, and none sold after 1891, so none need an FFL to transfer.
Some of the things you list as "issues" are non issues. Sights will increase the value, but lack of them isn't a detraction; just a little less money.
That gun originally had several Pope molds with it when Roderick was told of it in Jan. 1976 by Erlanger. He also mentioned then that it was set up for a scope, but no sights on it.
The chamber may be a rework, as the .28-30 is a Stevens caliber, and Pope used the .38 Ballard Extra Long cases necked down to make his .28 Pope Special.
More likely that it didn't sell on GB because the price was higher than folks felt it should be. Guns like yours are off a fair amount in recent years, and a Pope Ballard at $10k 5-10 years ago wont be near that these days. I've picked up three Pope Ballards in the last couple years and all three didn't add up to $10k. And one is a cased 3 barrel Pope Ballard with a lot of history. All three came with vintage scopes and iron sights too.
« Last Edit: Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:16pm by marlinguy »  

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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #4 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:32pm
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You have every right to brag, marlinguy, but I at least hardly call less that $10K total, especially when including your Pope take-down set, a going market price.

Also, where are the photos of the accessories, etc.?  Is there a third post somewhere?  Or have my eyes and brain finally cashed in their few remaining chips?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Gunfunpow
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #5 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:39pm
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Well Marlinguy, too bad for me I guess. It's sad no one appreciates a fine rifle like this (except us, of course). Too much call of duty or grand theft auto. Not my kids, thank God! Anyways, I guess I can bring it to Amoskeag or some such and see how that goes. I would like to keep it and shoot it, but the butt plate and my shoulder don't play well together!
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #6 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:40pm
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:32pm:
You have every right to brag, marlinguy, but I at least hardly call less that $10K total, especially when including your Pope take-down set, a going market price.

Also, where are the photos of the accessories, etc.?  Is there a third post somewhere?  Or have my eyes and brain finally cashed in their few remaining chips?

Bill Lawrence


Sorry Bill! I went to his auction on GB and saw the accessories. Then forgot where I saw them and my feeble memory told me they were in the other part of his 2 part post.

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marlinguy
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #7 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:45pm
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Gunfunpow wrote on Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:39pm:
Well Marlinguy, too bad for me I guess. It's sad no one appreciates a fine rifle like this (except us, of course). Too much call of duty or grand theft auto. Not my kids, thank God! Anyways, I guess I can bring it to Amoskeag or some such and see how that goes. I would like to keep it and shoot it, but the butt plate and my shoulder don't play well together!


Shoot it off your upper arm as it was meant to be shot! Of course the pronged offhand buttplate will hurt your shoulder. Even with no recoil it will still hurt if you shoot it off your shoulder.
It is too bad that a lot of gun people these days don't appreciate a gun like this. But I don't think it's just a lack of interest, or lack of knowledge of these fine old schuetzen rifles. It's more likely that people look at a Pedersoli at $1200 used, and would rather pay that used price than the price of a nice schuetzen rifle.
A gun under $2k is not a hard sell to many folks. But start talking 5x that price and the wallets just wont open up anymore. It's just a limited group of buyers who love them, and are willing to save up to own one.
  

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Gunfunpow
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #8 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 9:09pm
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Hate to sound like I'm bragging, but my bicep won't fit in the plate, especially when I grasp the lever. Not really sure about shooting this rifle anyways as the rolling blocks and the billinghurst style rifle I'm building are taking up most of my time. Also, why would this rifle not need to go through an FFL?
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #9 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 9:11pm
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Thanks, marlinguy, for directing me to the photoset.  It leads to a question, which may just somehow be related to the Stevens stamp:  Just how often did our Harry supply more than one mould with a rifle?

Also with regard to the Stevens stamp (it bothers me, too), is it possible that Pope rebored the barrel on top of a Stevens' rebore?  Or better yet, since the serial number stamped on the barrel is slightly smaller and in a slightly different font than the number on the receiver, is it possible that the barrel is actually a replacement barrel made by Stevens and numbered to the gun (I do believe I've heard of such) which Pope, again, rebored?


Bill Lawrence
« Last Edit: Jul 17th, 2018 at 9:20pm by Bill Lawrence »  
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Gunfunpow
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #10 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 9:43pm
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Wow, just got done looking over the for sale pages. Found a complete Ballard sight set in it's original case for only $4500.00. So you can find original sights for it!! If you needed them that is.

  
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Redsetter
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #11 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 9:59pm
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Gunfunpow wrote on Jul 17th, 2018 at 9:09pm:
why would this rifle not need to go through an FFL?


AS Marlinguy told you, the rcvr. was not made after 1891; alterations after that date, such as brl work, don't count.
  
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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #12 - Jul 18th, 2018 at 2:23am
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Redsetter wrote on Jul 17th, 2018 at 9:59pm:
Gunfunpow wrote on Jul 17th, 2018 at 9:09pm:
why would this rifle not need to go through an FFL?


AS Marlinguy told you, the rcvr. was not made after 1891; alterations after that date, such as brl work, don't count.

Depends on your state.  Ammo still commercially available could trigger FFL requirements.  Cry
  

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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #13 - Jul 18th, 2018 at 1:12pm
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It diffidently doesn't need a FFL as none of the early 28 calibers are available today, especially one made on the 32 Ideal case.

Frank
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #14 - Jul 18th, 2018 at 3:33pm
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Jul 17th, 2018 at 9:11pm:
Thanks, marlinguy, for directing me to the photoset.  It leads to a question, which may just somehow be related to the Stevens stamp:  Just how often did our Harry supply more than one mould with a rifle?

Also with regard to the Stevens stamp (it bothers me, too), is it possible that Pope rebored the barrel on top of a Stevens' rebore?  Or better yet, since the serial number stamped on the barrel is slightly smaller and in a slightly different font than the number on the receiver, is it possible that the barrel is actually a replacement barrel made by Stevens and numbered to the gun (I do believe I've heard of such) which Pope, again, rebored?


Bill Lawrence


I wondered the same things Bill! But if it was a rebarrel at Stevens, then it would need to likely be a .22 barrel. Then Pope would have had to rebore to a larger caliber that would clean up the Stevens bore and allow enough metal to rifle and chamber it in the .28 caliber? Not sure a .25 caliber would be enough metal left for Pope to rebore and re-rifle? Especially since at that time frame Pope wasn't working for Stevens, and Stevens used right hand twist, while Pope used left hand twist.
Then there's the question of why someone would have Stevens put a new barrel on, and then soon after have Pope bore and rifle it to another caliber? All strange stuff.
Since the .28-30 Stevens didn't come out until around 1900, and Pope left Hartford to go to work for Stevens a bit more than a year later. Why would he have done the barrel of such a new caliber so soon?
If it wasn't for the Hartford stamp, I'd understand if he'd done it later when he was in Jersey City. My thoughts are that maybe it was a .22RF Stevens marked barrel, and fitted to the Ballard much earlier. Then later sent to Pope and opened up to .28 caliber, and the HM Pope and barrel number 127 added when he did his work.

But considering all Ballards are antique vintage, and whatever .28 this one is wont be able to buy factory ammo for, it's certainly classified "antique" by ATF and not subject to ANY FFL transfer.
  

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