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Gunfunpow
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Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Jul 17th, 2018 at 3:19pm
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More photos, but the rest are too large and I have to re-shoot. Undecided
« Last Edit: Jul 17th, 2018 at 3:38pm by Gunfunpow »  
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Redsetter
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #1 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 4:28pm
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How could it be "not"?
  
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Gunfunpow
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #2 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 7:27pm
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Because of the bluing on the receiver and lever. I thought Ballard's are all color cased, so collectors wouldn't be interested. Or am I wrong about that?
  
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moodyholler
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #3 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 7:42pm
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Pope barrel would not have Ballard serial number on it. It is likely a Ballard barrel with the addition of stamps. No extra machine stamps on it either. moodyholler
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #4 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 7:48pm
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Gunfunpow wrote on Jul 17th, 2018 at 7:27pm:
Because of the bluing on the receiver and lever. I thought Ballard's are all color cased, so collectors wouldn't be interested. Or am I wrong about that?


While the bluing on receiver and lever are not what Marlin would have originally used on that Ballard, they are very commonly found on old custom built Ballard target rifles. I can't emphasize how much I wouldn't want it changed at this point in it's life!
As for collectable. Every Pope barreled rifle is collectable, and the question is just to what extent? In the case of this particular gun, it is well documented by Claude Roderick, and is listed on page 136 of Warren Greatbatch's 2 volume set of the Hartford Pope rifles!
If this gun is still in the .28 Pope Special caliber, still has the false muzzle, and is still the same 30" full octagon #4 weight barrel, it's very collectable! It was also described by George Erlanger in 1976 as possibly having been owned by Lucian Cary, writer and close friend of Pope's. Erlanger said he was close friends with Allen Pope's son and daughter. (grandchildren of HM Pope)
No way to know for sure if it's Lucian Cary's old Ballard, but it's still a well documented gun. No picture provided in the Pope book though, so not sure if the blued parts were blued back then?
The description from Erlanger tells of an ugly black buttplate, and a added on cheekpiece done in "an un-workmanlike manner". So it appears someone swapped the old buttstock and buttplate. It also mentions the forearm being large and having a groove cut full length in the bottom for a palm rest. Bet that forearm is also gone. But since the stocks sound hideous, that might be good they're gone!
  

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Redsetter
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #5 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 7:58pm
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moodyholler wrote on Jul 17th, 2018 at 7:42pm:
Pope barrel would not have Ballard serial number on it.


Could he not have re-rifled the original brl?
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #6 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:04pm
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If I'm understanding gunfunpow correctly, since Roderick (and  Greatbatch?), the gun has at least lost it's false muzzle.  And that together with I assume the lost mould would be for many a deal-breaker.  Damn!

Bill Lawrence
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #7 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:13pm
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:04pm:
If I'm understanding gunfunpow correctly, since Roderick (and  Greatbatch?), the gun has at least lost it's false muzzle.  And that together with I assume the lost mould would be for many a deal-breaker.  Damn!

Bill Lawrence


Bill, the OP has two posts going on this gun. Like you, I didn't realize he had two posts, and thought the same thing. In his other post he shows the false muzzle and the other accessories.

But it's still confusing in some ways. The barrel is serial numbered to the gun, but has Stevens markings on it!  It for some reason doesn't have the other code numbers attached to most HM Pope barrels made in Hartford. But that doesn't bother me much, as it seems Pope sometimes left those off. But the Stevens markings and .28-30 chamber on a gun that early are extremely odd for a HM Pope Hartford rifle?
  

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Gunfunpow
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #8 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:23pm
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Thanks for all the information, it is very much appreciated. I have had many firearms come and go through my hands, like I think most of you had, but this is my first Ballard ever. Mr. Lawrence, I do have the matching false muzzle and starter numbered 127, along with two Pope bullet moulds and a breech seater. It is chambered and rifled in 28-30 Pope and has about 40 cases made from .30 Ideal. As noted, the sights and scope are lost. I just have to re-shoot these above items so they can be resized to post. Lastly, this rifle came from an estate in Connecticut and as far as I found out from the family, was purchased in the early 80's locally. Factor in time and faulty memories, so don't take it as fact. Best regards, Doug
« Last Edit: Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:45pm by Gunfunpow »  
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Gunfunpow
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #9 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:26pm
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Forgot to add, I ain't changin' nuttin'!!!
  
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Gunfunpow
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #10 - Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:56pm
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You know Marlinguy, I kind of thought that the bluing on the receiver looked more like either a pro or factory finish. Has that really nice rust blue look to it. The inside of the receiver looks to have color case however. At any rate none of the lettering was buffed down or defaced. I wondered if maybe the rifle was re-blued when Pope did the work. It's the joy of old iron, speculation and research. Of course, no books in my library cover the Ballard, so I'm SOL. Glad I found and joined the forum.
  
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #11 - Jul 18th, 2018 at 6:24am
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I don't see the markings on the left side of the receiver, possibly removed when the receiver was blued ?
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #12 - Jul 18th, 2018 at 3:46pm
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Gunfunpow wrote on Jul 17th, 2018 at 8:56pm:
You know Marlinguy, I kind of thought that the bluing on the receiver looked more like either a pro or factory finish. Has that really nice rust blue look to it. The inside of the receiver looks to have color case however. At any rate none of the lettering was buffed down or defaced. I wondered if maybe the rifle was re-blued when Pope did the work. It's the joy of old iron, speculation and research. Of course, no books in my library cover the Ballard, so I'm SOL. Glad I found and joined the forum.


If the receiver was rust blued, then whoever did the work would likely have not rust blued the inside of the receiver or hidden areas. Maybe Pope, or maybe whoever put the Stevens barrel on it before Pope did his bore and rifling work?
As long as it's got Pope's rollstamp, and left hand twist Pope rifling, then it's not really important who did the bluing.
Having the receiver Marlin rollstamp removed isn't surprising. My 3 barrel Pope Ballard has all markings removed from the receiver. It still has all serial numbers matching on internal parts, but whoever did the receiver took it down to smooth metal. It's a 1st year Ballard in the 5xx serial range, so likely was an old gun when Pope built it.
Have a Schoyen Ballard that likewise has nothing but the serial number left on the exterior. And of course since Schoyen didn't usually rebore other maker's guns, there's no markings on the barrel except the Schoyen rollstamp.
  

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Gunfunpow
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #13 - Jul 18th, 2018 at 11:00pm
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Well the Marlin rollmark is still there, nice and legible. It doesn't show up well in the photo here but you can see it on the GB listing. Marlinguy, thanks for all your input and writing your article "Ballards for Beginners" on the Leverguns site. A very nicely done piece of work and a good read. I appreciate you taking the time to look into my rifle's history and comment on it. Thank you, Doug
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Collectable Ballard/Pope? Or not?
Reply #14 - Jul 19th, 2018 at 11:10am
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Gunfunpow wrote on Jul 18th, 2018 at 11:00pm:
Well the Marlin rollmark is still there, nice and legible. It doesn't show up well in the photo here but you can see it on the GB listing. Marlinguy, thanks for all your input and writing your article "Ballards for Beginners" on the Leverguns site. A very nicely done piece of work and a good read. I appreciate you taking the time to look into my rifle's history and comment on it. Thank you, Doug


Thanks Doug. I wish Photobucket hadn't messed up their site and ruined that post by messing up the images in that thread.
  

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