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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 100 series Model 44's receiver markings? (Read 4209 times)
Dellet
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100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Jul 30th, 2018 at 2:15pm
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Was the front of the receiver marked for model number on a 107,109 the same as was done for the 40-50 series rifles?
  
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oodmoff
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #1 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 12:39pm
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I will check this evening when I get home, mine is a late in production s/n 29xx (I think I read some where that they supposedly they ended around ~ s/n 3000).  IIRC I also thought somewhere it was stated that the barrels were marked with the three digit model number, but mine does not have this, just the matching serial numbers.  Unfortunately at some point the barrel on this one was likely shortened down to 30" from something longer and a Remington front sight was added and the rifle also suffers from a crack at the wrist which has been glued and is tight.  One day I need to track down one of the earlier Stevens Vernier sight with the elevation know at the top of the staff and a palm rest that fits but for know i'm still tickled to have it.
« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2018 at 3:01pm by oodmoff »  
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Dellet
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #2 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 1:31pm
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I think in your case they didn't want to take a chance of messing up that pretty receiver Smiley

On mine, the barrel, tang and butt plate have matching serial numbers. Under the forearm the barrel is stamped 107 and also 22. No model number on receiver, but the case hardening can be seen so I think the surface area has not been played with.

Was just curious what was normal.
  
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oodmoff
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #3 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 1:42pm
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its possible mine is stamped and I just don't know it as it could be hidden under whomever set the base for the palm rest.   About where is your barrel marked with the model number...(approximate distance from receiver).   

As I said I will look at the front of my receiver when I get home from work and respond, I can't quite see if from this photo I had on my work computer...almost looks like its blank...

I had never checked behind my buttplate for a serial number as I can hear a little rattling from the buttstock.  As I believe the buttstock was partially hollowed out and lead added to balance it out a bit.  I'm curious to get in there and see whats up, but always am running kiddos around instead of getting to play with my guns.... Roll Eyes  daw gone it.. Wink  I need to get my priorities straight...
« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2018 at 1:50pm by oodmoff »  
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Dellet
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #4 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 1:48pm
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Almost where it turns from octagon to round, maybe 1" from the front of the forearm.
  
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oodmoff
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #5 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 1:51pm
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Don't seem to run into to many of them....that's for sure..
Does yours have the two line APR.17.94 patent date roll stamp on the top flat of the barrel?
  
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Dellet
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #6 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 2:07pm
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Yes, but sadly i'm pretty sure it was re-barreled at some point. Chambered in 25-21.
  
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oodmoff
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #7 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 2:14pm
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not re-barreled but rebored?   block switched to a CF
Btw nothing to be sad about if it shoots!..
  
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Dellet
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #8 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 2:21pm
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The chamber marking is correct on the barrel and there is no evidence that a previous marking was removed. Serial #223?. I think is too early for the chambering, but don't know when it first appeared or how late the model was sold.

  
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oodmoff
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #9 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 2:47pm
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Sorry, I miss interpreted your early post regarding the barrel marking of 22.  I was thinking you were referring to a caliber marking.   It is an earlier serial number and the .25-21 was supposedly brought to live in 1897.     For some reason I was thinking the 107, 108 and 109 went from 95 to 98?  which would work your chambering.. but I'm starting to forget more than I remember.....and those dates may just be wrapped around advertising, which can be misleading..

I think I recall that uscra112 and peterson2520ss had quite a bit of knowledge about Stevens serial numbers.
Bill Lawrence AC Gould and Joel black and several other folks on here that are way more knowledgeable than me when it comes to Stevens rifles...

I'm eager for a photo or two..  Smiley  Good speaking with you.
« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2018 at 3:37pm by oodmoff »  
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Dellet
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #10 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 3:14pm
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I'll try to  post the barrel marking tonight, but yes the 22 I was referring to is under the forearm.

Shoots reasonably well, but have not worked with it enough. Some bullets came with it and they were too small .2565.

Tried some .258 65 grain and the groups tightened up considerably.
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #11 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 3:39pm
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Dellet states that his rifle's barrel, receiver tang, and buttplate have matching serial numbers.  If that number is the stated "223", Dellet's rifle was likely made in 1894, several years too early for an original chambering in .25-21, which was indeed introduced in 1897.

Hum-m-m-m!  As Miss Clavel would say, "Something is not right!"

And if "107" is the model number of Dellet's rifle, what's the barrel's accompanying "22" stamp?

This is what comes of having held several 100-series Stevens in my hot little hands but never owning one.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #12 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 3:42pm
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oodmoff wrote on Jul 31st, 2018 at 2:47pm:
For some reason I was thinking the 107, 108 and 109 went from 95 to 98? 


The "accepted" date for transition to the 2-digit numbers is 1896.

Looks like a #4 wt. brl. on that gun, so it's not hard to imagine why the brl. was abbreviated, & weight added to the buttstock!
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #13 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 3:46pm
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I'm slow today or cant read or both...  I got confused when he said the chambering mark is correct on the bottom after stating that it was chambered in .25-21  which from some reason led me to believe the gun had a .25-21 marking as well.    I was making it harder than it is...

thanks redsetter for setting me straight.  I need to adhere to that if you don't recall correctly don't post rule.
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #14 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 4:09pm
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And just to keep us all on our toes, including Redsetter, the very big barrel and the rattling buttstock are of oodmoff's rifle.

Also, Dellet's rifle is the one with the .25-21 chambering and the matching stamp on the barrel with every sign of being original.

Last, Dellet mentions two numbers, "22" and "223".  Which, if either, is the serial number he notes is stamped in three places?

I swear I'm getting too old to participate in these kinds of convoluted conversations.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Dellet
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #15 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 4:26pm
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My fault on the serial number 223X, four digit number I can't remember the last digit, that was the reason for the ?

The roll mark is 1894 with 25-21 marked on the flat below the maker and patent stamp. Serial number is on the underside of the barrel in front of the forearm. I would consider the barrel correctly marked as it matches everything else I have of that era.

The questions come up for the barrel markings under the forearm and front of receiver where there is none.

The only marking on the receiver is on the tang, serial number. It is directly under the lever, more forward infront of where the lever contacts the tang, not back by the spring set screw hole. You have to drop the lever to see it.

The barrel markings under the forearm include the presumed model number 107, and a 22. I don't think it is a #22 barrel weight as I can lift it, unless they changed the numbering system. Wink

Sorry for the confusion.
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #16 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 4:38pm
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Jul 31st, 2018 at 4:09pm:
And just to keep us all on our toes, including Redsetter, the very big barrel and the rattling buttstock are of oodmoff's rifle.


Of course--it was to him that I addressed my comment.
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #17 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 5:26pm
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found two more photos....hopefully answers the OPs orginal question.  No model marking just s/n.   
also showed the caliber marking under the barrel (not sure if they knew which direction they were headed either)....as mine is not marked on the flat.  

btw bill is miss clavel a nurse or a nun...?
« Last Edit: Jul 31st, 2018 at 5:56pm by oodmoff »  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #18 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 7:06pm
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oodmoff wrote on Jul 31st, 2018 at 5:26pm:
found two more photos....hopefully answers the OPs orginal question.  No model marking just s/n.   


Further evidence, evidently, of inconsistency in placement of markings--Dellet just said above there were NO markings on the front of his rcvr. 
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #19 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 9:56pm
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Oodmoff, in the fine live-action movie, Miss Clavel is portrayed as a nun, complete with cross, which the real Miss Clavel, Miss Clara Clavel, never wears.  In short, our Miss Clavel is a nurse by training and a teacher by vocation, in the "old house in Paris all covered with vines."  As she would have been in Britain back then, were she nursing professionally, she would likely have been termed a "nursing sister" and addressed as "Sister Clavel".  But as a teacher, she's just plain "Miss".

So why the nun-like outfit?  Probably it's as nothing more than a proudly Catholic country's homage to the women who among their historic virtues was that of selflessly serving as nurses when needed.

Plus who's going to sass someone who looks like a nun?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #20 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 10:11pm
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I knew we could get a question successfully answered in this thread...well played...well played.
  
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Dellet
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #21 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 10:38pm
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Butt plate is a Swiss #2

Need to work on some photo sizes, this is the one in question and will resize it soon.
« Last Edit: Aug 1st, 2018 at 11:41am by Dellet »  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #22 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 10:51pm
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I'm sorry, oodmoff, that we've only by counter-example sort-of answered your original question (and I stress "sort-of").  But Dellet's rifle, being earlier than yours (serial number 223x vs. 29xx) has thrown us for something of a loop with it's seemingly very unlikely "original" .25-21 chambering.

Now among us Old Boys and especially when it comes to Stevens material, loop-throwing and tangent-chasing seem to happen often, perhaps too often.

So I'm taking a feeble stab at getting back on track.

By any stretch of the imagination, assuming the correctness of that .25-21 chambering, could the "22" be a twist rate?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #23 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 11:06pm
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Twist rate will be very close to 1/14.

About 1.6 turns of the cleaning rod in 26” barrel.

I have seen photos of other barrels marked similar, unexplained number. But never an explanation.
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #24 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 11:24pm
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Bill please understand my comment was in jest, I appreciate all the knowledge put forth thus far, including the nurse/nun info.

Certainly how Dellets rifle came to be may never be known.  The odds of it being a factory re-barrel are probably higher than as it being a "later" parts on hand assembly, but that probably isn't completely out of the realm of possibility.  I have seen rifles roll stamped "Rebored by J Stevens" but never have seen anything indicated that it was "re-barreled" by Stevens.  Perhaps someone else has.... Given how accommodating Stevens was to other makers and custom orders and the odds or ringing a barrel in the day...its odd they wouldn't make a stamp to say such, thus its more likely in my opinion that they may have just rebarreled and matched the serial number.  But again I am speculating.   I would suspect a twist rate more along 1 in 12 or 14...  22 seems extreme.   Could be a barrel worker number...

btw thanks for the photos
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #25 - Aug 1st, 2018 at 2:11am
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The standard Stevens twist rate is 13 for 25 caliber.

Frank
  

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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #26 - Aug 1st, 2018 at 5:27am
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Oodmoff, I knew you were jesting; so was I, somewhat.  But the apparent purposeful destruction of the Stevens factory records often leaves us with severe cases of frustration characterized by overdoses of speculation over even the seemingly simplest questions.

In a slightly earlier conversation concerning a Ballard with both Pope and Stevens stamps, the group more or less came to the opinion that Stevens had "re-bored and re-rifled by" and "re-barreled by" but no "barreled by" stamps to identify work done on guns other than their own.

But when it came to rerifling, rechambering, replacing, or adding barrels to one of their own guns, as you note, Stevens apparently left no tracks behind on the guns themselves.

Damn the destruction of those factory records!

Bill Lawrence
« Last Edit: Aug 1st, 2018 at 5:38am by Bill Lawrence »  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #27 - Aug 1st, 2018 at 11:43am
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frnkeore wrote on Aug 1st, 2018 at 2:11am:
The standard Stevens twist rate is 13 for 25 caliber.

Frank

I did confirm it as 1/13, thanks
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #28 - Aug 1st, 2018 at 9:15pm
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I have 2023 and 2459 in my collection.  Neither one has any markings at all on the receiver, other than the s/n on the tang.

S/n 2023 has the one line mark on the barrel, with 1886 patent date.  It has no caliber mark, no barrel weight mark, and the s/n is stamped in a much smaller typeface than the receiver.  The original chambering appears to have been .22 Harwood Hornet, so I want to think that this barrel was fitted and chambered by Harwood himself, but of course this is only a guess. 

S/n 2459 has the two-line barrel rollstamp with the APR 17 94 patent date, and s/n from the receiver is repeated on the barrel in the same script style.   Barrel is chambered .32 Ideal and is so marked.  No weight number.

I have logged no fewer than 15 rifles between 2000 and 3000, and while for several specimens I was unable to get the barrel marking at all, s/n 2144 and above all have the two-line APR 17 94 mark.
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #29 - Aug 1st, 2018 at 10:22pm
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uscra112 wrote on Aug 1st, 2018 at 9:15pm:
S/n 2023 has the one line mark on the barrel, with 1886 patent date.


Did you mean 1885?

By the way, I know that Edward Elder held the 1894 pat., but what about the '85 pat.? 

  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #30 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 6:41am
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Yup.  Late night typo.

  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #31 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 9:12am
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uscra112 wrote on Aug 1st, 2018 at 9:15pm:
I have 2023 and 2459 in my collection.  Neither one has any markings at all on the receiver, other than the s/n on the tang.

S/n 2023 has the one line mark on the barrel, with 1886 patent date.  It has no caliber mark, no barrel weight mark, and the s/n is stamped in a much smaller typeface than the receiver.  The original chambering appears to have been .22 Harwood Hornet, so I want to think that this barrel was fitted and chambered by Harwood himself, but of course this is only a guess. 

S/n 2459 has the two-line barrel rollstamp with the APR 17 94 patent date, and s/n from the receiver is repeated on the barrel in the same script style.   Barrel is chambered .32 Ideal and is so marked.  No weight number.

I have logged no fewer than 15 rifles between 2000 and 3000, and while for several specimens I was unable to get the barrel marking at all, s/n 2144 and above all have the two-line APR 17 94 mark.   


I almost wonder if dates and serial numbers have much meaning, or Stevens sold a lot less rifles than we think before 1900. I have no trouble believing barrels with old patent stamps were used, and there was certainly a transition period of when the 1894 date actually hit the street.

In the examples above an 1885 marked barrel around #2100, selling no later than 1897. Then a 1894 barrel chambered in 32 ideal #2459 is only 350 rifles in 6-8 years. If the 1903 introduction date of the cartridge is correct, or the #2459 was also possibly rebarreled  Shocked

I would think they sold more than one Ideal/44 Rifle a week. Confusing for someone who never really gave the timeline much thought.


  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #32 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:37am
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Dellet wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 9:12am:
If the 1903 introduction date of the cartridge is correct, or the #2459 was also possibly rebarreled...


It's NOT correct (though that's the date given by Barnes); .32 Ideal was available by 1896, if not before, because it's listed in a Stevens 1896 catalog.
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #33 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:49am
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Redsetter wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:37am:
Dellet wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 9:12am:
If the 1903 introduction date of the cartridge is correct, or the #2459 was also possibly rebarreled...


It's NOT correct (though that's the date given by Barnes); .32 Ideal was available by 1896, if not before, because it's listed in a Stevens 1896 catalog.


Thanks,

Are there others that you are aware of that were considered Stevens cartridges?

25-21, @1897
28-30. @1900
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #34 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 11:36am
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Dellet wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 10:49am:
Are there others that you are aware of that were considered Stevens cartridges?


The most popular cartridge that Stevens claimed to have originated (after the .22LR) was the .25-20 SS, or rather .25-20 Stevens, as it was called in their 1900 catalog. That catalog includes the statements "we first brought this cartridge out" & "was originated by us," leaving no doubt as to where full credit supposedly belonged. 

However, the truth is a little different.  Harvey Donaldson devoted a chapter to it in "Yours Truly," describing how FJ Rabbeth developed it from the .32 Wesson case, then took his design to the Maynard Co, which first offered it in 1884 (Barnes says '82, probably because it was first chambered in that model).

But since Stevens later bought out the Maynard co., I suppose their "we" in the 1900 catalog could be interpreted as including products of Maynard as well, though that's clearly stretching the point.

Harvey also says that before developing his .25 case, Rabbeth had necked the Wesson case down to .28, making it the first in that caliber.  That cartridge, however, was not taken up by Maynard.
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #35 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 1:19pm
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I guess Bill Lawrence summed it up best with his loop-throwing, tangent-chasing comment.

I have another misfit early Model 45 with the radius breech in the high #3500 range. It also has an extra number stamped under the handgaurd that matches a number stamped in the extractor, which differs from the serial number.

I had assumed this rifle was re-barreled because of the 28-30 chambering again seemed early for the serial.

The more I learn, the more I just want shoot the darn thing and not worry about the rest. Grin

Thanks for the info provided.
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #36 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 1:25pm
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And, your not going to tell us the number Sad

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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #37 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 1:36pm
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frnkeore wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 1:25pm:
And, your not going to tell us the number Sad

Frank


Not sure which is worse, no number or wrong number.

From memory, it was 2525, because I thought that might have been the original chambering and it had been re-bored. But I could find no evidence of remarking the barrel.

The numbers are the same size and script as what was used for cartridge on the barrel.
  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #38 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 1:53pm
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Dellet wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 1:19pm:
I had assumed this rifle was re-barreled because of the 28-30 chambering again seemed early for the serial.



.28-30 was available by the fall of 1900, according to Stevens catalog.

  
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #39 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 7:48pm
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Dellet wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 9:12am:
uscra112 wrote on Aug 1st, 2018 at 9:15pm:
I have 2023 and 2459 in my collection.  Neither one has any markings at all on the receiver, other than the s/n on the tang.

S/n 2023 has the one line mark on the barrel, with 1886 patent date.  It has no caliber mark, no barrel weight mark, and the s/n is stamped in a much smaller typeface than the receiver.  The original chambering appears to have been .22 Harwood Hornet, so I want to think that this barrel was fitted and chambered by Harwood himself, but of course this is only a guess. 

S/n 2459 has the two-line barrel rollstamp with the APR 17 94 patent date, and s/n from the receiver is repeated on the barrel in the same script style.   Barrel is chambered .32 Ideal and is so marked.  No weight number.

I have logged no fewer than 15 rifles between 2000 and 3000, and while for several specimens I was unable to get the barrel marking at all, s/n 2144 and above all have the two-line APR 17 94 mark.   


I almost wonder if dates and serial numbers have much meaning, or Stevens sold a lot less rifles than we think before 1900. I have no trouble believing barrels with old patent stamps were used, and there was certainly a transition period of when the 1894 date actually hit the street.

In the examples above an 1885 marked barrel around #2100, selling no later than 1897. Then a 1894 barrel chambered in 32 ideal #2459 is only 350 rifles in 6-8 years. If the 1903 introduction date of the cartridge is correct, or the #2459 was also possibly rebarreled  Shocked

I would think they sold more than one Ideal/44 Rifle a week. Confusing for someone who never really gave the timeline much thought.




Well, I still ask the question of how many rifles Stevens sold in each year from 1896 to 1915.  But it surely must have been in the thousands.  The 6 o'clock extractor appeared somewhere between 1900 and 1903, and the lowest s/n that I have logged that has it is 17108.

One interesting thing I do see - there are a few rifles having the Stevens diamond on the receiver, which has long been accepted as being a Savage innovation, yet they have half-octagon barrels marked exactly the same as prewar, with the APR 17 94 patent date.  Was there a large supply of unfinished barrels that Savage was using up?
« Last Edit: Aug 2nd, 2018 at 7:56pm by uscra112 »  
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Redsetter
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Re: 100 series Model 44's receiver markings?
Reply #40 - Aug 2nd, 2018 at 8:27pm
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uscra112 wrote on Aug 2nd, 2018 at 7:48pm:
One interesting thing I do see - there are a few rifles having the Stevens diamond on the receiver, which has long been accepted as being a Savage innovation, yet they have half-octagon barrels marked exactly the same as prewar, with the APR 17 94 patent date.  Was there a large supply of unfinished barrels that Savage was using up?


Must have been--no other logical explanation.  Scrapping any usable part merely because it had an outdated marking on it would have been foolish.
  
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