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blackpowder
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question from a new comer
Jul 30th, 2018 at 4:23pm
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I recently bought a Winchester 1885 highwall. the rifle is in 40-70 Ballard caliber. when I received it, I had already bought ammo for it and shot it once it arrived. a few days later, I was wanting to do a though cleaning and removed the fore stock. much to my surprise, on the underside of the barrel was stamped "REBORE 25184 J.P.P."  The barrel is clearly marked 40-70 Ballard on top and on the bottom. so, I had the Cody Firearms Museum do a search for it and got it back today. it states that the gun was born a 38-55 in 1893. it however was sent back to the factory for a "repair and return on September 01, 1909, order number 25184". I bought this gun to use and also as somewhat of an investment on my money. so, I guess what I am asking, is would you be concerned about the value or not? thanks for any help.
« Last Edit: Jul 30th, 2018 at 4:37pm by blackpowder »  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: question from a new comer
Reply #1 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 4:50pm
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I have seen the "J. P. P." initials under the forearms of several Winchesters that were NOT rebores.  Decades ago, someone - maybe Gib Krontz - told me they were the initials of a Winchester barrel shop workman who often was given special orders and was allowed to sign his work.  Or so I remember.

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oodmoff
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Re: question from a new comer
Reply #2 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 4:57pm
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As far as I would be concerned there would be no deduction in regards to value as the modification is period and is factory documented. 
  
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jhm
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Re: question from a new comer
Reply #3 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 5:04pm
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That piece of history should make it unique...... At least it would in my mind.
I have several Win. both single shot and lever guns and none of them have anything unusual. Wanna swap?.........



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Redsetter
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Re: question from a new comer
Reply #4 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 5:08pm
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blackpowder wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 4:23pm:
so, I guess what I am asking, is would you be concerned about the value or not? thanks for any help.


Especially when the work was done by such a well-known Win. gunsmith, it SHOULD add to the value because it adds to its documented history in the form of the R&R order (which must have included removing the old cal. marking & rebluing). 

However, I've found that among most Win. collectors, mine is a minority opinion--most of them, judging by the remarks I hear on the Win. board, look askance at ANY deviation from the configuration in which it was originally built.  So I'd guess that some (not me!) would consider that this work detracted from its value in the original chambering to at least a slight degree.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: question from a new comer
Reply #5 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 7:39pm
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Any work done at the Win. factory that's documented in a letter from Cody wont hurt the value at all. In some cases it may even increase the value. I'd say any 1885 in a Ballard caliber is usually more rare, even if done later by Winchester.
  

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calledflyer
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Re: question from a new comer
Reply #6 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 7:41pm
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I think it'll end up valued just as if it were made that way from the beginning. If it has special features. like high grade wood or set trigger, it'll help. If it's just a plain rifle that's what it would sell as, value depending on condition.
I see it as a rifle somebody liked well enough to improve when he realized he needed more oomph. Or, one that got worn out and the rebore was just a way to keep it going. Signs of the times. Its, not ours.
edit: Vall and I were typing at the same time, but we sure almost said the same things, didn't we? Great minds, ya know.
  

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JLouis
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Re: question from a new comer
Reply #7 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 7:55pm
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Shoot it, care for it and enjoy it that was what it was actually made for.
  
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Redsetter
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Re: question from a new comer
Reply #8 - Jul 30th, 2018 at 8:08pm
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marlinguy wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 7:39pm:
Any work done at the Win. factory that's documented in a letter from Cody wont hurt the value at all.


Problem is, the specific work done is rarely described in R&R records.  It's reasonable to assume such changes were made when the gun was returned, but that's not documentation; that is, in the eyes of the more dogmatic Win. collectors, which I'm not.      

Best thing going for this gun isn't the R&R record but the JPP marking, which isn't routine on R&R work.
  
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Re: question from a new comer
Reply #9 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 9:04am
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Many years ago I also had a barrel marked with J.P.P. If you have John Campbell's book, on pg. 101, he explains those initials. George Madis told him it was for J.P. Parker, a workman that specialized in barrels.   Dale.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: question from a new comer
Reply #10 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 11:15am
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Redsetter wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 8:08pm:
marlinguy wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 7:39pm:
Any work done at the Win. factory that's documented in a letter from Cody wont hurt the value at all.


Problem is, the specific work done is rarely described in R&R records.  It's reasonable to assume such changes were made when the gun was returned, but that's not documentation; that is, in the eyes of the more dogmatic Win. collectors, which I'm not.      

Best thing going for this gun isn't the R&R record but the JPP marking, which isn't routine on R&R work.


You're making up a scenario that doesn't exist in this situation. The owner's record check, and markings on his barrel already confirm what was done. And it's not unusual for older Winchester records to show quite good detail of the work. Yes, they can occasionally be vague, but it doesn't seem to apply to the OP's gun.
I've not had a bunch of Winchester 1885's, but had several that detailed the features very well. One particular Low Wall showed the 3x wood, pistol grip stocks, set trigger, and Swiss buttplate. Plus had the "XXX SB" stamped on the side of the lower tang. A record check also showed the gun left the factory in the 1890's with a #2 weight 26" octagon barrel in .22 Short. Then was sent back to the factory in 1909 to get a #1 weight 28" full octagon .22 Short barrel installed.
  

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blackpowder
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Re: question from a new comer
Reply #11 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 5:59pm
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Thank you everyone for the information and opinions on the rifle. I have been a devoted flintlock builder and shooter for the last 40 years, but I have dabbled in blackpowder cartridge guns some. I have owned a couple reproduction guns but always wanted an original. getting the history on the rifle helped calm me down, so now I can really enjoy the rifle. its a great shooter so far and I am still working on loads some, but I think its about where I want it.
  
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blackpowder
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Re: question from a new comer
Reply #12 - Jul 31st, 2018 at 9:14pm
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jhm wrote on Jul 30th, 2018 at 5:04pm:
That piece of history should make it unique...... At least it would in my mind.
I have several Win. both single shot and lever guns and none of them have anything unusual. Wanna swap?.........



JMH

ha ha!!! not quite ready to part with it yet Smiley
« Last Edit: Aug 1st, 2018 at 9:46pm by blackpowder »  
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