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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A Few Old Photos (Read 17429 times)
Schutzenbob
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A Few Old Photos
Aug 14th, 2018 at 4:10pm
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Dr. Hudson's Remington;
  
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Schutzenbob
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #1 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 4:11pm
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a Farrow and a Pope;
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #2 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 4:15pm
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Ned Roberts and Harry Pope;
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #3 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 4:23pm
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Barry Darr;
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #4 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 4:32pm
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Wonderful pictures ! Thanks for posting them!
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #5 - Aug 14th, 2018 at 10:32pm
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Thanks. Don't you wish you were a fly on the bench for that conversation between Roberts and Pope.
Chuck
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #6 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 7:53am
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Is Barry shooting from Beeson's shed at Etna Green?
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #7 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 9:53am
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Barry told me the photo was him testing barrel #3 at Rodrick's range August 1970. The rifle is a Stevens 52.
  
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Schutzenbob
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #8 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:08am
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John P. Lower;
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #9 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:55am
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Here's an interesting post on Lower and a brief history of the man. Pretty good read.

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #10 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 12:12pm
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Bob
Thank you for posting those old rifle photos. They are most interesting. Do you have any idea when the photos were taken?
The reason why I ask about photo dates is that photo of Dr Hudson's Remington has a palm rest. Hudson was well known for having a cork pad attached to the forestocks of his rifles and supporting the rifle with his fingertips. It would be interesting to try to research references as to when he used a palm rest in competition. If the photo date was during the Schuetzen era, I might be clue for starting a search.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #11 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 1:37pm
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Randy,

I'm not 100%, but I think these photos were taken for Phil Sharpe's books, Phil Sharpe was a great fan of Harry Pope.
« Last Edit: Aug 16th, 2018 at 2:01pm by Schutzenbob »  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #12 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 1:44pm
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Typical - did you notice in the Roberts & Pope picture - Harry's shoes are not shined & Ned's glisten?
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #13 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 2:22pm
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No surprise. Roberts was an Army Major and spit shine was a hard habit to break.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #14 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 2:39pm
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oneatatime wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 2:22pm:
No surprise. Roberts was an Army Major and spit shine was a hard habit to break.


I read somewhere the "Major" title was not a rank Roberts held, but rather something people referred to Roberts as?
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #15 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 2:51pm
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I find it very hard to see where people, even those at the top of their game wear aa 3 piece suit to the range! Every now and then we will have a retired Marine at the range and their boots will be spit shined! Things were very different back then.
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #16 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 2:56pm
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oneatatime wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 2:22pm:
No surprise. Roberts was an Army Major and spit shine was a hard habit to break.


Roberts was NEVER in the Army, NG, or any other military organization!  But he once taught school at a military academy where all the instructors wore uniforms & were referred to as "Major."  Afterwards, his friends, esp. Phil Sharpe, began calling him "Major" as a kind of inside joke, like the men referred to as  "Kentucky Colonels."  All this & more is related by his close friend Harvey Donaldson in "Yours Truly."
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #17 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 3:07pm
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oldracer wrote on Aug 16th, 2018 at 2:51pm:
I find it very hard to see where people, even those at the top of their game wear aa 3 piece suit to the range!


At the time, a 3 piece suit was not considered "dressed-up"--it was merely normal middle-class men's daily wear.  Even common laborers would dress in a suit when on a date or at some other social event. 
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #18 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 3:38pm
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from Phil Sharpe's Complete Guide to Handloading;
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #19 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 3:39pm
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Phil Sharpe's Dedication, Complete Guide to Handloading;
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #20 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 7:37pm
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It says in the artical above that Pope included loading data for each barrel. Do any of these papers still exist.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #21 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 7:55pm
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    Roberts' title "MAJOR" came from his having been a teacher at a private military school, where all the teachers were given the nominal rank of Major.   There is no record of his having served in the US Military.  STILL, he might have shined his shoes. whilst Pope may have regarded that as a waste of his valuable time.

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RGChristensen.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #22 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 10:07pm
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Randy, this may answer some of your questions;
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #23 - Aug 16th, 2018 at 11:45pm
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Bob
Thanks for the additional post of that Remington Hepburn. It's curious how the fist photo has that hand written note about the rifle being Hudson's pet rifle but the figure caption from the book only states that the Hepburn action was Hudson's preferred action. I guess that is just another of history's unexplainable disconnects.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #24 - Aug 17th, 2018 at 7:55am
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I recall the first Hepburn pictured had formerly belonged to Dr. Hudson, but at the time was in the collection of Harvey Donaldson, who photographed it as an illustration for an American Rifleman article on old rifles and calibers, written in the 1930s.

The stock could have come with an extra forend, or Donaldson could have altered the forend for his own use.  A picture in Rowe’s book on Hepburns shows a Walker that Remington had made a new forend for in the 1920s.  Donaldson could have had a new one made by them as well.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #25 - Aug 18th, 2018 at 12:24pm
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Here's another, courtesy of the late Mike Petrov;
  
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Reply #26 - Aug 18th, 2018 at 3:25pm
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Love these old photographs from the glory days! Imagine having a display rack of rifles out on the street as in the Lower store photo today! That picture of the doc's Pope rifle got me to wondering what the device that's protruding from the muzzle is. Does anyone know? Thanks for posting these photos, it's rare for me to see them so I really appreciate it.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #27 - Aug 18th, 2018 at 4:00pm
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Which rifle which post you maybe looking at a false muzzle the bullet starter is then attached to in order to start the bullet down the bore and then has to be removed before shooting the rifle.

JLouis
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #28 - Aug 19th, 2018 at 8:55pm
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This is one of my favorite photos, from Phil Sharpe's The Rifle in America;
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #29 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 3:39pm
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Interior photo of J. P. Lower & Son's store in Denver Colo.;
  
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Reply #30 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 4:31pm
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The things on the wall are probably worth more than most of the guns in the racks. Sure would like to do my decorating with that stuff. Be still my heart.... Tongue
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #31 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 4:43pm
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Bob
Here is a quickie Photo Shop cleanup of the image. As the image quality is only so-so, there's not a lot to be done to improve it other than tweak the brightness and contrast plus throw some image sharpening on it. Some of the detail is easier to see though.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #32 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 8:25pm
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What I love are the built-in racks for customers to lean their guns in, guns they have brought into the store for whatever reason, and done so without a worry.  Can you even imagine any store, even a gun store, doing that today?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #33 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 8:40pm
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Looks like the dog didn't get the memo to hold still for a few seconds Smiley

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #34 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 9:47pm
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Aug 20th, 2018 at 8:25pm:
What I love are the built-in racks for customers to lean their guns in, guns they have brought into the store for whatever reason, and done so without a worry. 

Bill Lawrence


Well, it's quite true a customer strolling in with a gun in his hands wouldn't have precipitated a panic (it didn't even when I brought my High Standard Double-Nine into my Jr. High shop class to make a holster for it!), but I'd assume most of these racked guns were guns for sale.
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #35 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 10:30pm
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As often happens, once again, Redsetter, my lack of precision has apparently caused my point to be missed.  The racks I'm referring to are those that line the customer's side of the counter, apparently all the way around the store.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #36 - Aug 20th, 2018 at 10:44pm
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It wasn't that long ago, because I'm not that old  Wink the podunk town I'm from in south central Montana had a hardware store that had glass cabinets with the fringes like that.  I remember asking my father what these were for, or maybe my dad asked if I knew what they were for...  Raymee, the store owner pulled a greased up '03 Springfield from a wooden barrel and leaned it up against the groove and asked if I understood?  Never gave the picture another thought when I saw it thanks for a refresher Bill!
Greg
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #37 - Aug 21st, 2018 at 12:04am
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Bill Lawrence wrote on Aug 20th, 2018 at 10:30pm:
As often happens, once again, Redsetter, my lack of precision has apparently caused my point to be missed.  The racks I'm referring to are those that line the customer's side of the counter, apparently all the way around the store.

Bill Lawrence


Now I see what you mean; could no doubt be used for that purpose, but more inclined to believe they're decorative trim-work in the fancy furniture style of the time.  Handy, however, if a platoon of blue-coats dropped in the store.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #38 - Aug 21st, 2018 at 10:43am
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I think you're correct Bill. Those are likely for customer's guns so they wont lay them on the glass top cases and break the glass.
  

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Reply #39 - Aug 21st, 2018 at 12:00pm
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I've been in a couple of gun shops that had shorter versions of them, never seen it go as extensive as this picture's version. I'll bet the poor guy that had to saw those boards and smooth 'em up  wished he had a saber saw and electric sander- Roll Eyes
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #40 - Aug 21st, 2018 at 12:35pm
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There's a small fortune invested just in the glass cases and cabinets in that picture.  Glass didn't travel that far very well without breakage and was needed to fulfill the desire to isolate items from both customers and the clouds of dust present in those dirt and horse manure covered streets, but still provide transparency to let customers know what was available.

Must have been a lot easier to daily knock the grime off the top of a glass case than a hundred plus individual firearms.

As such, there is no doubt in my mind that the proprietor would do everything possible to protect those glass cases, as MG implied.

What a picture!

Hayface
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #41 - Aug 21st, 2018 at 1:11pm
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Thank you all for your comments.  And you may well be right that the primary reason for the "fringe" was to protect the expensive glass cases.  But whatever the reasons, I mentioned the "fringe" simply because there was a time when a hardware or gun shop owner wouldn't have thought at all about someone walking in with a gun in hand.  Fifty years ago that was even still true in my town, which had six well-established gun shops and at least as many independent hardware stores that sold some guns and ammunition.  Nowadays, those gun shops are long gone; all but one of the few hardware stores are national chain stores, and none even sell ammo; and the local politicians are ardently trying to get the local Walmart to stop selling that "dangerous stuff" (zero tolerance in all forms is the local rage).

Oh, well, I'm just a ludite who refuses to change with the times.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #42 - Aug 21st, 2018 at 3:39pm
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BL,

Perhaps I should have phrased my comment differently, (as usual).  I don't know that protecting the glass with the "fringe" was necessarily THE primary reason, but certainly A reason for what appears to be a well conceived and executed multi-purpose design element.

Regardless, few of us will ever likely see such wonderfully purposeful appointments in a gun shop ever again.  And yes,  it's a sadder statement yet that they would serve little purpose in today's changed world. 

Thankfully, this photo and others show up here and give us a small taste of what it was like back then.

Change, not always for the better!

Hayface
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #43 - Aug 21st, 2018 at 3:54pm
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Do you suppose those are kegs of BP on the high shelf on the left in back? And tins of primers in the close case on the right?
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #44 - Aug 21st, 2018 at 6:10pm
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Chuckster wrote on Aug 14th, 2018 at 10:32pm:
Thanks. Don't you wish you were a fly on the bench for that conversation between Roberts and Pope.
Chuck


How many of us even own suits like that?
  
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Reply #45 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 12:36am
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Freund Bro's Wyoming Armory;
  
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Reply #46 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 6:07am
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"How many of us even own suits like that?"
And keep in mind, those are wool suits in an age well before  A/C .....
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #47 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 7:05am
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40-82Hepburn wrote on Aug 22nd, 2018 at 6:07am:
And keep in mind, those are wool suits in an age well before  A/C .....


In Wyoming, pre-global-warming, I doubt that was a great handicap; Teddy Roosevelt, dressed up for winter on his ranch in the Dakotas, looked like the Michelin tire man.

Curious that all these gents appear to be holding muskets, not sporting rifles.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #48 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 7:50am
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"Curious that all these gents appear to be holding muskets, not sporting rifles."

Notice the sign under the boar's head. These men are obviously standing around, with muskets in hand, anxiously waiting for the Long Range rifles that they ordered to be finished.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #49 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 10:14am
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Also notice the exes on the hitching rail. That's where they sighted in. Cheyenne was a rough place and those were hard men in those days.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #50 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 10:33am
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oneatatime wrote on Aug 22nd, 2018 at 10:14am:
Also notice the exes on the hitching rail. That's where they sighted in. Cheyenne was a rough place and those were hard men in those days.


You got that wrong!  It's reserved parking, I recognized that signature! Grin
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #51 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 11:15am
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Remember that long range rifles in that era were quite often military style muskets! In fact the Creedmoor and other long range matches had classes just for those rifles. So the sign offering long range rifles may well be represented by the guns those fellas are holding.
  

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Reply #52 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 11:49am
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Everybody talks about the Sharps rifles they worked up, but the sign shows a Winchester. Where are they all at? Rather like to see a Freund reworked M 1876 or something, wouldn't you?  Roll Eyes
  

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Reply #53 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 12:04pm
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Those gentleman would look out of place wearing baseball hats theirs have allot more charm by far.
  
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Reply #54 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 12:09pm
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calledflyer wrote on Aug 22nd, 2018 at 11:49am:
Everybody talks about the Sharps rifles they worked up, but the sign shows a Winchester. Where are they all at? Rather like to see a Freund reworked M 1876 or something, wouldn't you?  Roll Eyes


Especially if this photo was going to be used for promoting the shop.  Looks like a staged photo to me--not likely all those gents just happened to be loitering in front of the place when the photographer came along.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #55 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 12:51pm
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calledflyer wrote on Aug 22nd, 2018 at 11:49am:
Everybody talks about the Sharps rifles they worked up, but the sign shows a Winchester. Where are they all at? Rather like to see a Freund reworked M 1876 or something, wouldn't you?  Roll Eyes


Yes the Sharps seem to get the most attention with Freund guns. But I've seen a fair number of Rolling Blocks (both Remington and Whitney) from Freund's shop also. Fortunately that was an era when big shops like Freund's stamped their name on guns they sold. So not just the guns modified by Freund, but many other guns that went through their shop got marked.
It would seem that maybe there weren't many Winchesters going through Freund's shop, as I can't say I've seen one marked yet. And I did a search a few years ago on the internet for any Freund marked guns, and nothing came up in the way of a Winchester in that search either.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #56 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 1:42pm
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Really quite sad to see those Gun Shops now gone and even more so the smiths who worked on all the firearms as we now have none not a single one in a town with a population over 212,000.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #57 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 2:26pm
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JLouis wrote on Aug 22nd, 2018 at 1:42pm:
Really quite sad to see those Gun Shops now gone and even more so the smiths who worked on all the firearms as we now have none not a single one in a town with a population over 212,000.


It's sad, but if you remember as many gun-butchers as I do from the '50s, '60s & '70s operating small shops, often at their homes, the loss is maybe not as tragic as you think.  The first time I encountered one was while I was in Jr. High, when I took a High-Standard pistol my father had given me to one because the pin that releases the slide was stuck.  I looked on in horror as, holding the pistol between his knees, he held a punch on the pin with one hand & hit it with a hammer with the other; OF COURSE, as I could see was going to happen (but lacked the nerve to stop him), the punch glanced off leaving a deep gouge on the slide.  But he was a good guy--said he was sorry & didn't charge me for his butchery!

By the time I was in HS, I'd learned of a smith worthy of the name (Jim Clark!), but his shop was about 50 m away.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #58 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 4:33pm
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The loss of great gunsmith shops is common all over the USA! And it was caused by people who weren't willing to pay a livable wage for the quality work these good gunsmiths did. Sad, but it's really the main reason they're gone.

I also recall going to a local "gunsmith" to simply have a barrel spun off. I didn't have the tools then, and his work spurred me to get the things I needed to do it myself.
I walked into the shop and was greeted by a caged divider between me and the owner. Odd, but I told him what I wanted and he said he'd do it while I waited. He then put the barrel in his barrel vise and turned around to an oxy-acetylene torch set and began to fire it up with a huge heating tip!
I asked what he planned to do and he told me he was going to heat the action to allow it to spin off easily. I told him he certainly wasn't going to heat my action, and especially with that big old tip! He continued to fire up the torch and I screamed something about what I would do if he touched my action with it. He finally turned the torches off and gave me my barreled action back.
I went home and ordered my barrel vise and an action wrench, and it came off like butter. No heat needed, and I never regretted spending the small amount for the tools to do it myself.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #59 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 7:00pm
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Interior photo of Freund Bro's Cheyenne, Wyoming;
  
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Reply #60 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 8:15pm
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We used to have three great Smith's and they also sold firearms, ammunition, re-loading components etc. They also refurbished, re-built and built new custom firearms. Smithing alone would not provide them a good living and it still won't keep anyones doors open and eading into a nice retirement. We have one left a friend but he only builds high end custom shotguns and rifles from scratch and they are all in the five figure range.

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #61 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 9:14pm
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I can't help but wonder if any of the rifles in the racks in the Freund Brothers or J.P. Lower picture are now in the care of anyone on this forum.

Oh, to be able to step back in time with a handful of cash.

Then again, they'd probably take one look at our modern funny money and throw a guy out of the place.

Hayface
  
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Reply #62 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 9:32pm
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Hayface if one could only do so just for the times all though a bit rugged.
  
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Reply #63 - Aug 22nd, 2018 at 11:31pm
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Then again, they'd probably take one look at our modern funny money and throw a guy out of the place.

Gold might work,
I'd be happy just to go back to the 50's for some great deals.
When did pricing take the big jump?
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #64 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 4:18pm
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Quote:
I'd be happy just to go back to the 50's for some great deals.


Without playing on peoples misfortunes, imagine the prices during the great depression.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #65 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 8:40pm
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Quote:  When did pricing take the big jump?

Even now, it unfailingly occurs when I become interested in any item!  Market then plunges to record lows if I already have one.

Hayface

I remember throwing hay bales around all day as a youngster in the late 50's / early 60's for the princely sum of $.75 an hour.  Seems really nice guns were out of my reach then, too.
« Last Edit: Aug 24th, 2018 at 8:50pm by Hayface »  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #66 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 8:45pm
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JL,

Quote:  Hayface if one could only do so just for the times all though a bit rugged.

Wouldn't it be something to be able to just walk through one of those old shops in that era?

Hayface
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #67 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 10:03pm
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Hayface wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 8:40pm:
I remember throwing hay bales around all day as a youngster in the late 50's / early 60's for the princely sum of $.75 an hour. 


I did it for the kingly sum of $1/hr; although I wouldn't have done anything so hard, hot, & miserable for $5/hr, if my father hadn't forced me to. Thought of all the dust & hay in my face & down my sweaty neck still makes me cringe.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #68 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 10:32pm
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Redsetter wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 10:03pm:
Hayface wrote on Aug 24th, 2018 at 8:40pm:
I remember throwing hay bales around all day as a youngster in the late 50's / early 60's for the princely sum of $.75 an hour. 


I did it for the kingly sum of $1/hr; although I wouldn't have done anything so hard, hot, & miserable for $5/hr, if my father hadn't forced me to. Thought of all the dust & hay in my face & down my sweaty neck still makes me cringe.

Your father spoiled you, Redsetter.
For us, it was part of the chores that had to be done, and we did it for free.    Smiley
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #69 - Aug 24th, 2018 at 10:45pm
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[/quote]
Your father spoiled you, Redsetter.
For us, it was part of the chores that had to be done, and we did it for free.    Smiley
[/quote]

Same here for me and my little brother farming cotton, corn, oats, etc. here at home when we were young. The only perks we got out of doing all the dirty work during the week was Dad was free on the weekends to take us hunting and fishing. I think we got a pretty good deal.

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #70 - Aug 25th, 2018 at 10:15am
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I worked for my uncle summers, through harvest time. He paid me $10 a day, and we worked a 12 hr. day. It was hot, sweaty, hard work, but I loved it. Not that I enjoyed hot and sweaty, but I just enjoyed ding the work we did. Wasn't all harvest, and that was the toughest part.
He sold me my first vehicle at 13 yrs. old! Of course with my dad's approval first! It was a '47 International panel, and cost me a whopping $25. I worked on it of and on until I was old enough to get my license. Went to his place the day I got my license and drove it home!
  

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Reply #71 - Aug 25th, 2018 at 10:53am
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Milked cows twice a day seven days a week along with the chores. Didn't mind the heat or the itching when bucking bales it was the poking and rubbing raw of the upper legs that got a bit uncomfortable Hay chaps were not in the budget.

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Reply #72 - Aug 25th, 2018 at 11:10am
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Hayface it indeed would and we had one similar but smaller at one time. Bought a few rifles and shotguns there starting in high school. Had an open account all it took was my name on a file card and pay as much as you can when you can. When one was paid off another one got added to that file card and the Simth half owner also taught me a lot.

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #73 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 2:26pm
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You've all seen this one, but here it is again.....

These names came from the South Shore Rifle & Pistol League in MA;

1935 - WALNUT HILL - Back Row: Moore, Stevens, Tharnisch, Lucian Cary, Arthur Elliot, Dickerson
Front Row: Shaw, Harry Pope, Dwyer, C. E. Kelly, Philip E. Brooks;
« Last Edit: Aug 27th, 2018 at 9:49pm by Schutzenbob »  
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Reply #74 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 2:51pm
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Wanna bet that those rifles have either Pope or Pope/Stevens barrels?
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #75 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 4:25pm
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calledflyer wrote on Aug 27th, 2018 at 2:51pm:
Wanna bet that those rifles have either Pope or Pope/Stevens barrels?


Well I bet Harry's had a Pope barrel!
I've seen this picture before, but somehow overlooked the scope on Pope's High Wall before now! Appears Harry had a Fecker scope on his gun!
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #76 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 4:29pm
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Can any of the others be identified? I am not sure, but the shooter behind and to Pope's left might be Arthur Hubalek.If so, doubt he would be shooting a Pope barrel. Realy nifty photo, and thanks for sharing it with us.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #77 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 4:38pm
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rkba2nd wrote on Aug 27th, 2018 at 4:29pm:
Can any of the others be identified? I am not sure, but the shooter behind and to Pope's left might be Arthur Hubalek.If so, doubt he would be shooting a Pope barrel. Realy nifty photo, and thanks for sharing it with us.


I don't see anyone in the picture that looks like pictures I've seen of Arthur Hubalek. I've seen pictures Depending on when the picture was taken, Hubalek did use Pope barrels earlier in life. Of course after he began making his own then he and Pope had a falling out, and I doubt he'd use a Pope barrel, or that Pope would sell him one either.
The picture John Dutcher used in his Ballard book on page 381 shows a much older Pope standing in the center and Hubalek and his son standing to the left of Pope. Dutcher mentions the bad feelings between the men, but I guess it wasn't bad enough to not take a picture with them. Or maybe Hubalek's son was the buffer between them? Wink
  

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Reply #78 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 5:00pm
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The white-shirted man with the tie and no jacket, standing behind Pope is Lucian Cary.
Don't the fore stocks on the two Ballard look like Stevens versions? That's why I postulated the inclusion of Stevens/Pope barrels.
« Last Edit: Aug 27th, 2018 at 5:12pm by calledflyer »  

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Reply #79 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 5:09pm
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Thanks MG, I went to look at the picture in Johns book on page 361, and was thinking that Hubalek's son looks like the man in the photo to the left and behind Pope, and the man behind Pope might be Hubalek. There is a similarity but I was wrong on both counts. I would love to have a nice photograph of Hubalek, as I have a Hubalek Ballard. I will have to ask John. I would still be interested in identifying any of the others if anyone knows. Krag
  

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Reply #80 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 5:11pm
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Thanks calledflyer.
  

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Reply #81 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 5:15pm
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Interesting two diameter scope to Pope" left.
  

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Reply #82 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 5:26pm
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Cary, of course, idolized Pope and based his wonderful J. M. Pyne stories on him.  But as one good turn does indeed sometimes begat another, it can hardly be coincidental that the last muzzle-loading outfit Pope made went to Cary.

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Reply #83 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 5:31pm
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What I think are most nifty are the individualized palm rests.  Also, I wonder what pulled only Cary's eyes away from the camera.  Possibly one of Westerner's notorious Schuetzenbabes?

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Reply #84 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 5:33pm
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It's not impossible that the rifle Pope is holding in the photo is the very rifle he made for Cary.
Look at the buttplate on the engraved Ballard. Lots to see in that photo, kinda like the others in this thread. Thanks for posting 'em guys.
  

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Reply #85 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 5:43pm
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Sorry, fellas, Cary's Pope was a high-wall, but not that one.  Julia's sold the Cary-Pope outfit back in 2011 and you can still see it and it's accessories in all their glory in Julia's archives.  (I tried to add the internet address of the listing, but it would only partially display.)

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Reply #86 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 6:19pm
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I tried to post the Julia auction stuff myself, but I'm a computer idiot. The reason I say the rifles might be the same is the fact that the rifle was refurbished and restocked after Cary owned it. It was just a possibility, that's all.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #87 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 6:30pm
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One publication using that photo identifies the gentleman to Lucian Cary's left leaning on barrel as Arthur Elliot, Harry's apprentice.

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Reply #88 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 7:33pm
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You're certainly always safe in saying "might", Calledflyer.  But just to likely settle the issue, Pope delivered the outfit  (barrel # 782) to Cary in 1933; our photo is dated 1935.

Nonetheless, Harry is looking just a tad smug, and one has to wonder what about.

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Reply #89 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 8:08pm
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rkba2nd wrote on Aug 27th, 2018 at 5:15pm:
Interesting two diameter scope to Pope" left.


Abrupt jump from small to large diameter characteristic of scopes made by F. H. Souther, a member of the W.H. Club. He built no mounts of his own--these are probably Feckers.
  
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Reply #90 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 8:11pm
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Of course I'm hedging my opinion about the photo. Hell, it isn't like I was there when it was taken, like you Roll Eyes
I knew the date, and it could be a screw up as well- Maybe Cary took the old geezer to lunch then out to the range to see the boys. I dunno, and it doesn't matter, it's still a nice photo.
  

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Reply #91 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 8:58pm
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calledflyer wrote on Aug 27th, 2018 at 8:11pm:
Of course I'm hedging my opinion about the photo. Hell, it isn't like I was there when it was taken, like you Roll Eyes


Though long past its Golden Age, of course, the WH club is still in existence & still shooting.  I'd be shocked if they didn't posses a copy of this famous photo with everyone identified, & perhaps additional info. as well.
  
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Reply #92 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 9:03pm
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Redsetter,

I'm not 100% sure on the names of men in the photo with Harry Pope, people can be easily missidentified, and names misspelled. I think the man at top left, identified as "Moore," may be F. H. Souther. Take a look at this old photo from Mike Petrov;
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Reply #93 - Aug 27th, 2018 at 10:41pm
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Schutzenbob wrote on Aug 27th, 2018 at 9:03pm:
Redsetter,

I think the man at top left, identified as "Moore," may be F. H. Souther. Take a look at this old photo from Mike Petrov;


Remarkable photo; only one I've ever seen of Souther, well known at the WH Club, but rather an obscure figure elsewhere, who built not very many scopes, because, probably, of their cost. 
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #94 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 1:04pm
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Great picture Bob! I do see similarities between Souther in Michael's picture and the guy on the left in the first picture. Even the same style cap on both guys.
I also see similarities between O E Garrish and the fella with the cigarette and both hands on the barrel.
  

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Reply #95 - Aug 28th, 2018 at 1:42pm
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Abrupt jump from small to large diameter characteristic of scopes made by F. H. Souther

So is the scope on Niedner's rifle also likely a Souther or one that Niedner built for himself?

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Reply #96 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:01pm
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Winchester's barrel shop;
  
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Reply #97 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:09pm
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Phil Beckeart's office;
  
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Reply #98 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:10pm
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Shiff the Gunman's Front Room;
  
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Reply #99 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 12:12pm
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Great historical pictures Bob and thanks for sharing.
  
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Reply #100 - Nov 6th, 2018 at 1:55pm
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I can't quite make out how Mr. Neider's scope is mounted.
Looks like one ring, but can't be.
Isn't that his thumb where a very closely spaced mount might be?

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #101 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 1:26am
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Rebel wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 1:55pm:
I can't quite make out how Mr. Neider's scope is mounted.
Looks like one ring, but can't be.
Isn't that his thumb where a very closely spaced mount might be?

Aaron

I think it is the lighting.  There is something on the barrel even  though I cannot see a ring either.  Mr. Partridge next to him has the same issue, IMO.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #102 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 10:07am
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 1:26am:
Rebel wrote on Nov 6th, 2018 at 1:55pm:
I can't quite make out how Mr. Neider's scope is mounted.
Looks like one ring, but can't be.
Isn't that his thumb where a very closely spaced mount might be?

Aaron

I think it is the lighting.  There is something on the barrel even  though I cannot see a ring either.  Mr. Partridge next to him has the same issue, IMO.


I enlarged the image up a lot and I can see Niedner's scope has a front ring around the larger belled portion of his scope. But even enlarged I can't make out the ring in Partridge's rifle. I can make out the front base on his gun though, and tell where it's attached. Just can't make out the ring.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #103 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 1:06pm
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If you'll look a Gibbon's rifle, it appears to be the same as Niedner's (both Krag's?) and you can see Gibbon's front mount, clearly. It looks like the front mount is positioned where the rear sight goes.

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #104 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 4:08pm
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frnkeore wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 1:06pm:
(both Krag's?)


Where's the magazine?  Converted to SS?
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #105 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 7:08pm
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I can't say, that's why I put a ?.

I was going by the shape of the bolt handle (straight and down swept) and the forearm band.

The area ahead of the receiver ring, looks strange. It looks like it could be a short Krag ring with something added?

Maybe a bolt gun of his own design?

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #106 - Nov 7th, 2018 at 7:30pm
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frnkeore wrote on Nov 7th, 2018 at 7:08pm:
Maybe a bolt gun of his own design?


Well, he did that too!  His famous "Hamburg rifle," of which a handful were built.  Odd looking action, with open bridge something like a Mannlicher.  However, only photo of one I've seen doesn't much resemble gun in photo.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #107 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 3:57pm
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Gents,

I believe those rifles held by Neidner and Gibbons may be Springfield 1903's converted to 22 rimfire, which is something that Neidner was known for doing according to Brophy.  It is also possible that one or both are based on the Model 1922.  Note what appears to be the loaded round clearance notch at the right front of the ejection ports.  The unidentified gizmo ahead of the receiver may be a rear sight cover of some kind, although it doesn't look like those made by O'Hare.  The scope mounts are consistent with Winchester A5 locations for the '03.

Hayface
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #108 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 4:31pm
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The first two had two locking lugs the other three had multiple locking lugs. An unfinished Mann-Niedner action with gauges is pictured.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #109 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 6:25pm
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The bolt handle looks to far back in the Gibbons/Niedner picture for it to be the one JL pictures.

Actually the Gibbons/Niedner bolt, looks very long, like about 8" maybe.

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #110 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 6:39pm
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frnkeore wrote on Nov 8th, 2018 at 6:25pm:
Actually the Gibbons/Niedner bolt, looks very long, like about 8" maybe.


Looks that way to me, too, but think maybe it's some kind of photographic distortion...unless they're chambered for .50 Browning.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #111 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 8:34pm
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This is from Mike Petrov's notes that went with the Niedner photo;
     
Published 2002
The Niedner-Springfield 1903 .22LR by Michael Petrov

In 1914 when Adolph O. Niedner was located in Malden, Massachusetts he and his friend Orris E. Gerrish came up with the idea of a .22 caliber Springfield rifle. There were many shooters who shot the 1903 Springfield .30-06 Service rifle and would have liked to shoot in the off season indoors with a rifle of the same type, the only difference being the caliber. This was certainly not a new idea. The Springfield Armory introduced the "Hoffer-Thompson" in 1907 and made them until 1918. This was a 1903 Springfield with a caliber .22 barrel that used steel holders which looked like a 30-06 cartridge that incorporated a chamber and firing pin for the .22 short cartridge.

Niedner's conversion consisted of a trough held in place by four screws, two screws through the left side of the receiver and two into the right raceway. The bolt is a two-piece bolt that has a non-rotating front section with the original safety lug now acting as the locking lug. A stud on the side of the bolt that stops against the magazine cutoff controls the length of bolt travel. With the cutoff in the middle position the bolt can be removed just as in the normal 1903 Springfield. The barrels for these conversions were made by Niedner and have a Niedner chamber with a fourteen-inch twist. The cocking head is removed from the bolt and the sear has several holes drilled in it so as to lighten the striker and speed up lock time. All that I have data on are chambered for the .22 long-rifle cartridge.
These rifles were never meant for the military, although when one of them does come up for sale they are sometimes advertised this way. Most went to members of the Boston Rifle and Revolver Club. I am not sure how many of these conversions were made. I have catalogued ten and have reference to maybe four more and would guess that no more than twenty of these conversions were made.
Most that I have information on are single shots but Niedner did make at least two with a five-shot magazine. This is a slick operating rifle. You just drop the cartridge in the trough, close the bolt and fire. Extraction and ejection are flawless.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #112 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 8:40pm
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cont.;

Many of the rifles still have the Niedner barrel. It will be marked on the bottom of the barrel with the Niedner barrel number and the date. The two rifles pictures are marked 245 12-1916 and 251 5-1917. The top of the barrel as well as the tops of the bolts and right sides of the trough are marked in two lines with his standard Malden marking.

A. O. NIEDNER
MALDEN, MASS.

These rifles were originally fitted with the Mann-Niedner tapered dovetail bases and scopes with Mann-Niedner mounts. Most of these mounts have been changed to modern mounts (Unertl & Fecker), however the last rifle that I know of that sold at auction last year still had a Mann-Niedner mounted scope on it.

For eighty-five year old rifles, they still do the job they were made for. As with any .22 rimfire target rifle you have to take the time to find out what kind of ammunition it likes, so I tried several different brands. All my testing was outdoors, bench rest at 50 yards with a scope. The more expensive ammo made by Eley and RWS performed poorly while CCI Green-tag and of all things Winchester T-22 did about as good as I could have hoped for.

I have never seen one of these modified Springfields that was made at the Niedner Rifle Corporation in Dowagiac, Michigan. With the introduction of the Springfield model 1922 in caliber .22 LR there was little need for the more expensive custom conversion. It is interesting that Niedner charged $35 in 1916 and $40 in 1918 for the conversion. In an ad in Arms and the Man for November 1, 1920 there is a used one for sale for $60 and in June 1, 1920 there is one with a scope for $150. That's a lot of money for a .22 target rifle in 1920.

The un-dated picture showing the shooters of the Boston Rifle and Revolver Club show Gibbons, Gerrish and Niedner using the Niedner-Springfields. The gentleman to Niedner's right-rear is Souther the Boston scope maker. Many other members pictured were nationally known pistols shooters. The scope on Mr. Niedner's rifle is a custom one made for him by John W. Sidle of Philadelphia.

Over the years a few of these rifles have been converted into sporters and the Niedner barrels have been replaced. Mr. Niedner replaced the barrel on his rifle when he was at Dowagiac and had it restocked by Tom Shelhamer.

  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #113 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 11:00pm
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Here are a couple that I have posted before but since this thread came back up I will repost

The CC Johnson photo is a copy probably from the internet??

The others are mine
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #114 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 11:01pm
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Looks like more than one post
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #115 - Nov 8th, 2018 at 11:02pm
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Ad CC Johnson shop
  

Thanks, Don

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #116 - Nov 9th, 2018 at 9:49am
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Every time I see that picture of CC Johnson's shop I'm impressed! He must have had the cleanest gun shop ever! Or he did a very thorough cleaning prior to the picture being taken! Amazing!
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #117 - Nov 19th, 2018 at 1:56pm
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Lillian Smith holding a Ballard;
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #118 - Nov 20th, 2018 at 11:16am
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Who else wants to knock Lillian down and take her guns? Shocked
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #119 - Nov 20th, 2018 at 3:47pm
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And who else wants to bet that like the stack of cannonballs, the guns, most especially the '73, are photographer's props?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #120 - Nov 20th, 2018 at 5:00pm
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I don't want to bet, let's take the cannonballs, too. And her hat.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #121 - Dec 24th, 2018 at 3:12pm
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Der Schützenkönig Philo Jacoby returns from Europe;
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #122 - Dec 24th, 2018 at 3:18pm
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Could those balls be glass target balls?
Kurt
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #123 - Dec 24th, 2018 at 3:43pm
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Kurt_701 wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 3:18pm:
Could those balls be glass target balls?
Kurt


Looks like it.  They were often made with ridges of some kind on the surface so the shot wouldn't glance off.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #124 - Dec 24th, 2018 at 4:42pm
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First, that is indeed a target ball, made by the N(orth) B(ritish) Glass Works in Perth.

Second, a few posts back. a photo relevant to a 1907 schuetzen match shows the visiting team from the D. A. Schutzen-Bund.  By a neat coincidence, the recent "Another Photo" post in General Discussion shows a well-decorated member of that same DASB organization.  And while the 1907 photo doesn't tell us what the "D" and "A" stand for, its caption does verify the speculation that the DASB was organized along military lines.

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #125 - Dec 24th, 2018 at 8:24pm
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A number of fraternal organizations had shooting teams, and also had military ranks within their organizations. My father was a member of the Moose Lodge Shooting Team, and held the rank of Captain in the 1920's.
He was also on their drill team. I still have his Moose Lodge saber here.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #126 - Mar 18th, 2019 at 2:11pm
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I blatantly stole these two images off the internet, and I feel kinda guilty....mea culpa. You'll note that in both the Peabody and the Ballard "Frogmoore" cartoons, the frog is using a Martini rifle.
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #127 - Mar 18th, 2019 at 3:47pm
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Appears very similar to the Ballard frogmoor. I don’t know which one came first.
Richard
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #128 - Mar 19th, 2019 at 9:34am
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The Photo of the Hudson Walker is also in Donaldson's book. There is also a photo of him holding the rifle in offhand position and he is using the palm rest in that photo. He may have acquired it form Roland.

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #129 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 7:36pm
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I was excited to share with you a photo I was recently able to obtain, which has members from the Davenport Rifle Team which included, Emil Berg, Edward Berger, George Cook, Henry Schroeder and John Bredow.  I have no idea as to the number of the photos that were originally produced, however on the back of the photo includes the statement "In memory of Meta Neebe, Wife of Oscar Neebe, Died March 7th 1887, at Chicago Ills." (both in german and English.)  The davenport shooting association has wonderful information of course regarding much of the history and formation of the groups in the area.  Btw, googling Oscar Neebe (Nee-bee) was certainly of interest.   Shocked   
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #130 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 7:38pm
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Back of print
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #131 - Apr 8th, 2019 at 9:09pm
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A few medals that belonged to H. Schroeder
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #132 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 1:43am
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Hello
Glad someone finally bought that one, I had been watching it for a month or two and was tempted.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #133 - Apr 9th, 2019 at 2:11am
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Kurt_701 wrote on Dec 24th, 2018 at 3:18pm:
Could those balls be glass target balls?
Kurt


Yes, those are target balls.  They were very popular with the Wild West Shows since they could be lofted by hand for the performers to shoot.  They were used for that purpose for many years after the shotgun crowd had gone over to clay targets.  (I have about 60 glass target balls in my collection ...)

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I may have passed my "Best Before" date, but I haven't quite reached my "Expiry" date yet ...
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #134 - Apr 21st, 2019 at 12:53am
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Ballard No. 5 with a Winchester 32-40 barrel, I would just love to know who this belonged to....
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #135 - Apr 22nd, 2019 at 7:20pm
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San Diego Schuetzen Shooters in 1977 at the Tom Nichols Match in Alpine California. Front row L-R; Bob Rocek, ?, Jack Farmer, Russ Hooks, Gil Newton, Tom Nichols, Frank Sheridan, Bob Stein, Dick Geis, Jeff Geis. Back Row; Al Sledge, Jim Boxberger, ?,?,Gordon Dale, Walt Kennedy, Sid Biggers,?, Howard Fusic, Arno Kikilus, Arnold Kraus, Granny Martin, Bruce Jones,?, Eric Keel, Tim Geis.  Tongue
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Reply #136 - Apr 22nd, 2019 at 8:43pm
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I'm fairly sure the 4th from the left, kneeling, is Russ Hooks and the 2nd from right, standing is Eric Keel. Several of the others have familiar faces but I can't put names to them at the moment.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #137 - Apr 22nd, 2019 at 10:35pm
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Not sure, but the fellow top row right, looks like Barry Darr, a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. No offense intended Barry. I met you at the first Coors match in 1982. Same galaxy, just a few years later.
  

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Reply #138 - Apr 22nd, 2019 at 10:43pm
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If anyone could supply more information, range and possibly more names etc, I'm sure some beside me would be interested. Thanks
  

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Reply #139 - Apr 23rd, 2019 at 3:21pm
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Here's another San Diego Photo from 1988; Front Row, L-R; Bob Roeder, Wes Miller, Duane Jenner, Jerry Cleave, Russ Hooks, Jim Wooten, Bill Bieber, Lonnie Bathke, Chuck Cleave, Dean Lillard. Back Row; Ken Lewis, Tommy Mason, Tony Dolan, ?, Joe Feldman, Dennis Brule, John Duetenberg, Randy Wright, George Valuck, Jeff Patton.
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #140 - Apr 23rd, 2019 at 6:02pm
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I'm in the back row, 5th from the left, next is Dennis Brule, John Duetenberg, ?, George Valuck from Coors, and Jeff Patton.
   Back row, 3rd from left I believe is Tony Dolan.

Regards, Joe
  
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Reply #141 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 1:55pm
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Fred Ross;
  
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Reply #142 - Apr 29th, 2019 at 1:56pm
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1904 Election Day Match held at Armbruster's Greenville Schuetzen Park in Jersey City, New Jersey. Harry Pope won the "Election Day Match" with a 2270 even though he forgot to seat a bullet and had one missed shot. Dr. W. G. Hudson (not in the picture) came in 2nd place with a 2250 and Fred Ross came in 3rd place with a 2233.

Front Row L-R; W. Rosenbaum, Louis C. Buss, George Bain, W. A. Tewes, Mr. Marble, August Begerow, P. Andrassy, Arthur Hubalek, Mr. Hecking. Center Row; W. A. Barker, Rudolph Gute, Lambert Schmidt, Fred Ross, Harry Pope, Mike Dorrler, Louis Maurer, L. P. Hansen, J. Kaufmann, Otto Mertens, Mr. Reisinger. Back Row; H. Fenwirth, N. F. Barning, George Schlicht, Barney Zettler, C. E. Taynor, Owen Smith, A. Fritschy, M. Behm.
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #143 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 4:21pm
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These are some of the details from "ARMS AND THE MAN" that go along with the Election Day Match;

"H. M. Pope whose remarkable shooting after the unfortunate incident which deprived him of all chance for first honors, has already been referred to, shot a Stevens-Pope 33 caliber with a 220 grain bullet muzzle-loaded, 32 inch No. 4 weight full octagon barrel with palm rest. The powder charge was FFG King's Semi Smokeless with No. 1 Du Pont Rifle Smokeless as a priming charge, and Peters No. 2 primers, his bullets were cast 1 part tin to 22 of lead. The rifle is mounted with a Stevens 5 power crosshair telescope. S. B. Adams of the Myles Standish Rifle Club of Portland, Maine was an interested spectator, his club anticipates an active indoor season and will undoubtedly have strong teams in the field with rifle, revolver and pistol. Those familiar with previous Election Day matches will recall the introduction of the telescope sight in 1903, which was allowed by a close vote of the competitors. Last year three competitors were provided with telescopes, Pope, Ross and Humphrey, the winners of first third and sixth places. A strong sentiment in favor of this form of sight has been apparent during the present year and as a result thirteen of the entries used it while a number of the remaining competitors expressed the intention of investigating the telescope proposition in the near future. Dr. Hudson has been in possession of two telescopes for some time past, one with crosshairs and the other with an aperture, but is not as yet prepared to abandon the peep and aperture sights with which he has accomplished such remarkable results. Regarding the palm rest, which at times has been the subject of considerable discussion, L. P. Hansen of Jersey City, NJ not only attests to its value as an aid to steady holding but also in regard to its right to be recognized as a legitimate device in connection with a rifle. But it can be said that it is not gaining in popularity with those who use the more practical military and hunting rifles and are loath to adopt it. The physical conformation of the individual determines largely the advantage to be gained by the use of the palm rest. We have in mind one rifleman who owing to his relatively short legs long body and short upper arm finds it impossible to rest his elbow on the hip even with the aid of a palm rest.
« Last Edit: Apr 30th, 2019 at 6:12pm by Schutzenbob »  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #144 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 4:23pm
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Dr. Hudson on the other hand, finds that the hip rest position without the aid of a palm rest is the most natural one for him to adopt a slight extension of the forend allowing the rifle to rest on his fingertips at the proper angle. H. M. Pope is similarly built, and though he uses the palm rest, the length from the fore stock is unusually short."
« Last Edit: Apr 30th, 2019 at 4:57pm by Schutzenbob »  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #145 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 4:24pm
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"The details of the rifles, etc., used by the other competitors are given below. In all cases the first name or names mentioned refer to the make of the barrel and the last to the action. Where a priming charge is mentioned it was from 3 to 5 grains of No. 1 Du Pont Rifle Smokeless. Arthur Hubalek; Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzle-loading 33, 218 with FG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming Stevens 5 power aperture telescope, palm rest. W. A. Tewes; Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzle-loading 33, 224 FFG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming, Stevens 3 power aperture telescope F. C. Ross; Stevens muzzle-loading 33 218 FG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming Stevens 5 power cross hair telescope, palm rest. W. A. Barker; Zischang Barning Ballard muzzle-loading 32, 200 FG Hazard nitro priming Stevens 5 power crosshair telescope; Charles Bischoff; Stevens-Pope Sharps muzzle-loading 33, 220 FFG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming, peep rear and pinhead front sight. L. C. Buss; Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzle-loading 28, 138 FFG Laflin & Rand Orange Rifle, Stevens 3 power aperture telescope. George Schlicht; Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzle-loading 33, 200 FG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming Stevens 3 power pinhead telescope. J. Kaufmann Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzleloading 32, 200 FG Laflin & Rand Orange Rifle, nitro priming, Stevens 6 power aperture telescope. L. P. Hansen; Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzle-loading 34 200 FFG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming rear peep and front pinhead sights. Owen Smith; Stevens-Pope Sharps muzzle-loading 33 200 FG Hazard nitro priming Stevens 5 power cross hair telescope. August Begerow; Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzle-loading 32, 200 FG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming peep rear and pinhead front sight, palm rest. B. Zettler; Winchester Ballard breechloading 32, 185 factory bullet FG Hazard rear peep and front pinhead sights palm rest. P. Andrassy; Stevens-Pope Martini muzzle-loading 32, 185 FG Hazard nitro priming, Stevens 5 power aperture telescope palm rest. H. L. Seckel; Zischang Sharps 32 200 FG Hazard nitro priming rear peep and front pinhead sights palm rest. Louis Maurer; Stevens-Pope Winchester muzzle-loading 32, 185 FG King's Semi Smokeless rear peep and pinhead front sights palm rest. G. T. Conti; Winchester Ballard breechloading 32, 185 FG Hazard rear peep and front pinhead sights. O. Bernius; Winchester Ballard breechloading 38, 255 FG Hazard nitro priming rear peep and front pinhead sights palm rest."
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #146 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 5:53pm
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Interesting, 1904 and several Winchester barrels on Ballards but only 1 Winchester rifle.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #147 - Apr 30th, 2019 at 8:54pm
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great info and picture. I love the info on the scopes and palm rests. Thanks
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #148 - May 10th, 2019 at 8:04pm
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Schoyen - Peterson, Denver Colo;
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #149 - May 11th, 2019 at 3:24pm
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Joe,
I still have that 1988 Coors banner rolled up.
KL
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #150 - May 11th, 2019 at 8:51pm
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Schutzenbob wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 4:24pm:
"The details of the rifles, etc., used by the other competitors are given below. In all cases the first name or names mentioned refer to the make of the barrel and the last to the action. Where a priming charge is mentioned it was from 3 to 5 grains of No. 1 Du Pont Rifle Smokeless. Arthur Hubalek; Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzle-loading 33, 218 with FG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming Stevens 5 power aperture telescope, palm rest. W. A. Tewes; Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzle-loading 33, 224 FFG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming, Stevens 3 power aperture telescope F. C. Ross; Stevens muzzle-loading 33 218 FG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming Stevens 5 power cross hair telescope, palm rest. W. A. Barker; Zischang Barning Ballard muzzle-loading 32, 200 FG Hazard nitro priming Stevens 5 power crosshair telescope; Charles Bischoff; Stevens-Pope Sharps muzzle-loading 33, 220 FFG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming, peep rear and pinhead front sight. L. C. Buss; Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzle-loading 28, 138 FFG Laflin & Rand Orange Rifle, Stevens 3 power aperture telescope. George Schlicht; Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzle-loading 33, 200 FG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming Stevens 3 power pinhead telescope. J. Kaufmann Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzleloading 32, 200 FG Laflin & Rand Orange Rifle, nitro priming, Stevens 6 power aperture telescope. L. P. Hansen; Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzle-loading 34 200 FFG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming rear peep and front pinhead sights. Owen Smith; Stevens-Pope Sharps muzzle-loading 33 200 FG Hazard nitro priming Stevens 5 power cross hair telescope. August Begerow; Stevens-Pope Ballard muzzle-loading 32, 200 FG King's Semi Smokeless nitro priming peep rear and pinhead front sight, palm rest. B. Zettler; Winchester Ballard breechloading 32, 185 factory bullet FG Hazard rear peep and front pinhead sights palm rest. P. Andrassy; Stevens-Pope Martini muzzle-loading 32, 185 FG Hazard nitro priming, Stevens 5 power aperture telescope palm rest. ..."


Interesting about the scopes... mostly 3X to 5X, with just one lone 6X listed in the bunch.   Smiley
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #151 - May 12th, 2019 at 8:56am
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oneatatime wrote on Apr 30th, 2019 at 5:53pm:
Interesting, 1904 and several Winchester barrels on Ballards but only 1 Winchester rifle.


Seemed to be a pretty common thing back in the early 1900's to swap a Winchester barrel on a Ballard. I have three Ballard schuetzen rifles with Winchester barrels.
I think that was because Marlin dropped the Ballard line in 1890, and Winchester made their 1885 much longer, so Winchester barrels were available long after people wore out their Ballard barrel.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #152 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:44am
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I noticed six 33's being used not often seen being used these days and one 28, one 38 and one 34 of which I found interesting.
  
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Reply #153 - May 12th, 2019 at 11:07am
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Ken not sure what happened to our Coors Banner or the Budweiser Banner when they too sponsored our Regional Matches for a very short time. The Bud being the preferred one to hang on the wall and a sponsor that some here might not recall. Also back when they had a Beer Truck on site and all you could drink was for free.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #154 - May 12th, 2019 at 3:09pm
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John,
I am not sure what went on between Max Goodwin and the local Coors dealer but our SW Regional Coors Schuetzenfests matches were well funded. What ever I asked for I got plus. Great people to work with. One year we had Roy Rodgers JR. down for the match.
Ken Lewis
  
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Reply #155 - May 12th, 2019 at 4:51pm
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Ken those were indeed amazingly friendly sponsered days for a little known shooting sport and indeed some of the very best at that time. Being a bit younger back then I took full advantage of all of the free Beer. All though not a competitor yet but a dream that finally came true. I always went out to enjoy all of those Matches including those regular matches I could make when worked allowed that our club also held.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #156 - May 12th, 2019 at 5:02pm
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It's a shame that the ASSRA and ISSA, together will not pursue anything like that!

I've talked about it a lot but, both organizations find reason not to.

The reason for a 34 cal, is that a mold and "freshening" a barrel, was cheaper than a re-barreling job. There where many odd barrel calibers in Slug Gunning. Ken Breizen was a very busy man before the 1990's.

Frank
  

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Reply #157 - May 12th, 2019 at 7:47pm
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Yes....I miss these guys! L-R, Max Goodwin, Jim Westergaard, August Westergaard at Golden Colorado 1982;
  
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Reply #158 - May 12th, 2019 at 10:01pm
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Digging around in my files - found the flyer and results from our first Coors Regional................Good shooting Ken!

Regards, Joe
  
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Reply #159 - May 12th, 2019 at 11:54pm
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Frank why do you continue to put the blame somewhere other than yourself? If you really wanted to see such a match again it's yours for the taking just start contacting sponcers and find a place to accommodate it. Or easier yet just go to Raton Coors built and paid for the Coors Range so that the Tradition could continue to carry on. But by folks like yourself and not having to relay any further on them and the reason it was built and then freely handed down. So it's really unfortunate for you to continue to complain about a match that has actually never gone away and possibly now closer to you than I believe Golden might have been.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #160 - May 13th, 2019 at 1:29am
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So, I'm the blame for the the ISSA & ASSRA not coming together to form Nationally, sponsored, professional match.

Darn, I didn't know that!!!

I'm so sorry, guy's. I guess I should have never got into this sport and created a ASSRA, sanctioned club, and promoted the ASSRA and supported other clubs, for all these 32 years.

BUT, given written permission and authority, by ASSRA & ISSA, I'd be glad to do the the work that it would take.

JL, what have you done for ISSA & ASSRA in this sport but, shoot only CF matches at Modesto, not supporting any other club in your area of CA? How many clubs have you started and how many other, ASSRA & ISSA matches, have you gone to, to help support them.

Are you even a member of ASSRA?

Our sport has already decline to a sliver of it's '80's and '90's days and will cease to be, if no one knows about it. Just like the Slug Guns did.

No one joins, if they don't know about it and no one will know about it, w/o national recognition.

Frank
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #161 - May 13th, 2019 at 11:17am
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Not taking sides in this debate, but without support from organizations like ISSA, ASSRA, or a huge sponsor like Coors, that event could never have been pulled off back when the Coors Schuetzenfest happened.
A major event like that takes some very strong backing from a sponsor, and organizations that oversee this type of shooting. Not many individuals have the clout, or finances to take on this type of event on their own. Regardless of their desire to do so.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #162 - May 13th, 2019 at 3:45pm
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There already is National Recognizition on two fronts the matches at Etna Green on behalf of the ASSRA and the Regional and National Matches on behalf of the ISSA. As well as this site and the ISSA's site also providing and promoting additional National Recognizition. In regards to traveling to other matches there is no need both organizations support, sanction and provide these matches to each individual home Club. This year I did not shoot our Regional Match but I did pay the ISSA fee as a means of support. I was also there for all three days to help as needed in support of the event and to hopefully help to make it an enjoyable time for all of the competitors. Also in regards to supporting the ASSRA we pay a yearly fee to the ASSRA for our club to be affiliated and my match fees go towards funding that fee. In regards to supporting the matches themselves I am an assistant to the Schuetzen Meister and if he is off shooting an out of town event or ill. I will then run those matches on his behalf and on behalf of the competitors so those matches are not cancelled and can still take place. Based on my now limited income there is not much more I can do monetarily to assist or to travel to various matches. But I can and do help to support those matches held by our club for the benefit of any and all who enjoy coming out to participat and would like to see the sport continue on successfully for several years to come. Even though I might not be participating in a match myself. Unfortunatly there are also those who will not go out to support their own home clubs events for the benefit of those who still enjoy going out to participate and would like to see the sport stay alive and well locally. Yet can still seemingly find a way to condemn and find fault in those who do go out and provide support while they are not willing to provide any support at all themselves on a local basis. In regards to one big Grand Schuetzen Match Col. Boyd of Single Shot Exchange magazine fame I believe provided two such grand events. It did not require the ISSA and the ASSRA to come together as one to accomplish what he himself was able to accomplish with the help and support from his sponsors. Those were one time events but the ASSRA and the ISSA events have never stopped being provided both locally and nationally for anyone and everyone to come out to fully participate in and to continue to enjoy.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #163 - May 13th, 2019 at 4:51pm
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JL,
What caused Bret Boyd to call a halt to the Grand American Schuetzenfest after organizing them in 1994-1995?
  

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Reply #164 - May 13th, 2019 at 7:08pm
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Vall in all honesty we are extremely fortunate to have both the ISSA and ASSRA upholding all of the past History and also providing matches. Myself I have absolutely no complaints with either one and just extremely thankful they are both still around.
  
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Reply #165 - May 13th, 2019 at 7:21pm
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BP I don't know why nor would I try to assume so. I am just very thankful for what we still have available today the past isn't coming back.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #166 - May 13th, 2019 at 7:36pm
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Past reasons don't matter because, as John Louis so aptly put it, the past isn't coming back.  Therefore, what can we still do to build the future?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #167 - May 13th, 2019 at 8:14pm
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JLouis wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:08pm:
Vall in all honesty we are extremely fortunate to have both the ISSA and ASSRA upholding all of the past History and also providing matches. Myself I have absolutely no complaints with either one and just extremely thankful they are both still around.


If you read my post John, you wont find anything I said that could be taken as derogatory toward ASSRA or ISSA. And I made no complaints against either organization. So not sure what you mean by this post?
In fact as I said, either or both organization's support of a grand event like the Coors match would be helpful, and also legitimize the event by their mere involvement, regardless of the level.
  

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Reply #168 - May 13th, 2019 at 8:32pm
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Vall I was basically saying I totally agree with what you had to say and I agree with you 100%! It might have come across wrong as I was also trying to share my thoughts of what was posted prior too. I should not have tried to address everything at the same time I can see where the confusion might have come from.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #169 - May 13th, 2019 at 8:34pm
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No, you can not bring back the past but, you can sure mirror it. As I have posted, many times before, it was the Coors Matches that increased ASSRA membership, at least 3 fold and everyone you talked to, that was into guns, knew of the Coors Matches and even knew of the word Schuetzen. Coors stuffed the coffers of ASSRA, too and helped, very much to buy the range it owns (EG).

Today, no one knows what Schuetzen is and no one knows the history of single shot, or even who Pope was.

There wasn't a internet in those days and everyone knew and admired SS's in those days. We have met the enemy and it is our self!

JL could help the ASSRA, directly if he would only join it.

Help us out, JL, help us out..........

These rifles deserve better!

Frank
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #170 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:07pm
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Anyone shooting schuetzen or long range matches IS bringing back the past today! We wont ever reach the levels of participation by shooters or spectators that there was in the late 1800's, or early 1900's because things just aren't the same today.
Too many other sporting events. Too many other styles of guns and shooting. Too many distractions in general to water down the interest. But I do believe that the sheer number of people still interested in shooting these old guns, or new guns built in the same style, certainly proves the idea is worth pursuing.
The issue today isn't just distractions, or other guns. It's promotion, and exposure. Without being promoted, it wont get the exposure. How many guys (myself included) didn't know about schuetzen or these types of guns before the Coors event? That match got a lot of miles by being written up in gun magazines. The guns got a new interest from people seeing them pictured in magazines, and wondering what they were, or how they were used.
I know I had a passing interest in single shots back then, but became so intrigued with schuetzen rifles that I found myself selling off over 100 pre WWII era Marlin lever actions I'd collected over the years. For me the allure of the schuetzen rifles was, and still is inspired by the coverage I saw of the Coors matches. And it has remained just as strong for over 3 decades now.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #171 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:09pm
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Bill Lawrence wrote on May 13th, 2019 at 7:36pm:
Past reasons don't matter because, as John Louis so aptly put it, the past isn't coming back.  Therefore, what can we still do to build the future?

Bill Lawrence

Bill,
Couldn't those past reasons be important... in order to understand and mitigate against the repetition of past actions/inactions and consequences that may inhibit building the future you refer to?
Could those past reasons help determine how long an organization may, or may not, endure?


  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #172 - May 13th, 2019 at 9:52pm
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Yes, BP, theoretically they are; after all, if people don't learn from the past, someone said, they are doomed to repeat it.

However, the people who are "doomed" are less us and very much more those who come next.  And while we can try to point out what we could've done differently or better or otherwise help or enlighten them, it will still be more and more up to them with their years still ahead of them to make the changes.

To come at this another way, as an appraiser of antiques and collectibles, one of my professional rules of thumb is that if the average age of a collector, user, or whatever group reaches 55, that group is well on the way to dying and likely that which binds it together is too.

Are we one of those groups?  I greatly fear that we may well be.  And if so, the time to save our "peculiar" shooting sport and all its wonderful tangents may be rapidly, maybe even too rapidly, getting away from us.

Therefore, to put it even more strongly than before, what must we do to not not just build but save our future?

Bill Lawrence
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #173 - May 14th, 2019 at 10:32am
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Any hobby, or interest that requires a fair amount of time and money to pursue is going to be a case of those involved being 55 or older. Prior to that the majority of guys are busy working, raising families, and just spread too thin on time and money to be able to get deeply involved.
It doesn't matter if it's schuetzen, long range, antique cars, or what it is. Anything that takes the time and money will end up with people interested being in that age group. I see it in all sorts of hobbies I'm interested in, and I don't think that will ever change.
But the good news is there's no shortage of people who are getting older, and hopefully as they mature and kids move out, the hobby will still be there if we keep the fire lit. It's just a case of making sure we keep it out there and well known to shooters and collectors so they get exposure to it. Then at some point hopefully they'll be interested enough (like we were) to get involved.
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #174 - May 14th, 2019 at 2:10pm
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There are 6390 registered users here and a new one just recently joined. Some of those newer folks reading this would think we are already doomed. So why would they want to spend the money at this point in time and also want to get involved. The real truth of it all is we are actually doing quite well and the number of registered users also points it out. The decline hasn't been from a lack of interest but by those who have since passed on. I can name at least  ten off the top of my head who used to shoot with our own group how many in your group have you lost. And then there are also those who just can longer get out due to their age, health or limited income. With all of this talk about one more grand Schuetzen Event as being our saving grace. How many do you actually think could even make it to such a grand event when they can barely make it out to their own home club's events. Or to even make it to the current ongoing national events that have also been on a decline. It all has to start at home good folks and Frank no longer even participates with his own club he left it quite some time back. So they are now down minus two as his wife also used to shoot with the group. And if one goes back to look at their scores they typically topped with only having five so where might he have room to complain about the sports decline. The youngest now I believe in our group is fifty eight and the oldest in his eighties. Our average is probably in the high sixties now with several now in their seventies. If we all don't start worrying more about our own club's participation instead of some grand event the concerns about the health and welfare of both the ASSRA and ISSA could then become very real. But we are along ways from ever getting there so grab all of your shooting gear and take a young man or lady out to your range and show them a wonderful time. If you happen to have another setup he or she can borrow until they can get their own encourage them to also start shooting your local match events. An individual who became a  top competitor came down just to watch a match to see what it was all about. I convinced him not leave and to hang out until after the match as I wanted him to shoot my gun. I hung up some targets showed him how to breech seat and load and let him shoot until his trigger finger felt like it was going to fall off. His name is Rick MacHale whom some of you know and have competed with. He also become a very dear friend you all can do the same.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #175 - May 14th, 2019 at 4:05pm
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JLouis wrote on May 14th, 2019 at 2:10pm:
There are 6390 registered users here and a new one just recently joined.


There are 320,000,000 people in the United States of America and at least, 100,000,000 should know about what we do and half of them should belong to either or both ASSRA & ISSA.

We have a LONG way to go.

Did you join ASSRA yet? Every journey, starts with one step.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #176 - May 14th, 2019 at 4:49pm
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By leaving and no longer supporting your group instead of worry about myself and others it would be better to go back to doing your own part. Sewing discord amoung this group is extremely harmful and it does not provide any help. If we can't even get along and show mutual respect for each other how could we ever hope to accomplish growing the sport?
« Last Edit: May 14th, 2019 at 5:10pm by JLouis »  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #177 - May 14th, 2019 at 5:50pm
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The idea that one big schuetzen event will save schuetzen in general, or somehow revive it to a whole new crowd, or grow the sport to astronomical levels, is just missing the point.
What seems to be forgotten by those who are strictly competitive shooters is there's a whole other world of casual shooters, and also collectors of these fine old schuetzen rifles!
If we rely on just competitive shooters to keep the interest in schuetzen rifles alive (or other single shot rifles!), they will indeed die eventually. But if that one grand schuetzen event inspires a few shooters, gets a few more casual shooters, and adds some collectors of these fine firearms; then it is a success!
Collectors, casual shooters, or competitors alone cannot keep it alive. It takes all of those interested in their particular segment of schuetzen to help spawn interest in the others, and keep it going.
Lets don't travel down the road with blinders on just because we have a particular segment we enjoy, and ignore the others that keep it alive too!
  

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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #178 - May 14th, 2019 at 5:54pm
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JL,
Of those 6392 forum members listed on the Members page that you referred to, some are R.I.P.
Of those 6392 who still draw breath, how many have actually made a post within the last month?
How many haven't made a post within the last month, the last 6 months, the last year?
What are the actual numbers of active participants, and what is the form of their participation?
Do those numbers actually translate into active shooters that pull a trigger during the matches at Etna Green?

If you were to equate the ASSRA with a small non-profit "business" seeking to grow and enlarge its "market share", what percentage of the potentially available "customers" are even aware of its existence?
When you walk up to ANY shooter that you happened to encounter and then ask them 1) if they have ever heard of the ASSRA, and 2) what does the ASSRA "Primarily" do, what answers do you receive?
What "Name Brand Recognition" does the ASSRA actually possess?
What is the level of the ASSRA's "market exposure" with the general shooting public, and what is the level of interest expressed?
  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #179 - May 14th, 2019 at 9:07pm
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I'm one of those who is active here, an ASSRA member, a collector and a casual shooter. Never shot competitively and probably won't. I enjoy reading about competitive shooting to a point. No idea how many are like me. Whish I knew how to keep the hobby alive and growing but I don't. Many young shooters are black gun fans. About half the country thinks all guns are dangerous and should be taken off the planet. Maybe if the gun control people get their way our single shotsl will get popular when that's all we are allowed to own.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #180 - May 15th, 2019 at 12:06pm
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BP I don't think anyone could up with a totally correct answer to any of those questions.
  
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JLouis
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #181 - May 15th, 2019 at 12:24pm
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Vall has shared some good points and the below should help to clarify the truth of it all.

The American Single Shot Rifle Association (ASSRA) was founded in 1948 as an organization that promotes the responsible use, study and preservation of single-shot rifles. These include original and reproduction arms from the 19th and early 20th centuries as well as rifles of more current design. The ASSRA encourages and coordinates research into the history and lore of single shot rifles to disseminate such knowledge for mutual benefit. This is in part made possible by the vast archives maintained by the ASSRA. The ASSRA sanctions events that hold members to high standards of ethical conduct, promote genuine friendliness, tolerance and mutual respect for each other.
  
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #182 - May 15th, 2019 at 6:48pm
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But, the main point, is how many people have read this, through out, all of the USA?

Though words mean nothing, unless people read them and value them.

The only way to get people to read, though words, is to get them out in the public. You think people search us out, looking for old guns that only fire one shot at a time?

Our guns and sport need to be promoted to entice people to own one, shoot it because, they are truly accurate and beautiful.

That's what Coors and the Schuetzenfest did, that was why they were popular, at that time. SS's had been gone, a long time when that event started and it was that event, that caused the resurgence of them. They have left the public's eye again but, could be brought back again, too!!!

It also benefits collectors, too by bringing up demand and there for the value.

Frank
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
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Re: A Few Old Photos
Reply #183 - May 16th, 2019 at 11:51am
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The Coors Schuetzenfest match was moved to Raton and with a financial contribution from the Coors Company, as well as generous individual ISSA member support. The "Coors Range" was built and the ISSA assumed the leadership roll. That Schuetzenfest event has been held every year since the Coors Range was completed in 1995. Yet you keep talking about bringing it back when it still already exists and has done so since 1995.



  
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