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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation (Read 3226 times)
boats
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #15 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 8:29am
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When ordering my CPA offhand Schuetzen I had the benefit of using my Anschutz 54 Super Match to set up the basic dimensions.† Fully adjustable buttplate comb palm rest and ability to weight the muzzle. What I came up with was the Schuetzen CPA uses on their web site photo. High Pope comb, hook plate, palm rest two 28 inch† barrels .22 & 32/40.† Rifle weighs 14 lbs with scope. Long is better when the Iron sights are used. Itís light as a feather compared to NRA rule (flat plate no palm rest 10lb 2 oz) Silhouette Rifle.

I wanted strictly traditional and Way I see it long and heavy helps you hold close, depend on getting the bullet out before you move, you are lost from the start.

As a side note I plan on selling that rifle, owned it 22 years, no offhand Schuetzen competition near me. Lots of single shot offhand matches that donít allow Schuetzen configuration. Hate to let it go but sitting idle is wasted. I envy you guys that have offhand Schuetzen matches within reasonable driving distance.

Post it later when I can inventory the outfit.

Boats
« Last Edit: Sep 14th, 2018 at 9:25am by boats »  
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40_Rod
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #16 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:24am
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It's kind of up to personal preference I like a 28' barrel but some like shorter.
Interestingly I had a chance to look over Arthur Elliot's personal rifle. It has a 32" barrel that like his mentor Pope was left just like it came off the rolls. Its about 1 5/16" in diameter. Elliot shot it both offhand and bench. Theh must have made them stronger back then.

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RSW
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #17 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 12:38pm
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40_Rod
Whether they made them stronger back then is debatable but during Schuetzen's Golden Age (c.1890-1917), rifles of the top tier shooters commonly weighed in the 12-16 pound range. For many of us, this might seem heavy. Bear in mind that the match formats back then were quite different than today's matches.
  

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frnkeore
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #18 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 2:00pm
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RSW wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 12:38pm:
40_Rod
Whether they made them stronger back then is debatable but during Schuetzen's Golden Age (c.1890-1917), rifles of the top tier shooters commonly weighed in the 12-16 pound range. For many of us, this might seem heavy. Bear in mind that the match formats back then were quite different than today's matches.

I don't think that they "made them stronger" but, the guy's of that time, most likely practiced more than us modern day guy's of 60+.

They did have the 100 shot matches, at that time and to do well, with a heavy rifle in that match, you did need practice. You have to realize that you strengthen the mussels that you use and you can't use them w/o practice.

It was a whole different mind set at that time. Shooting sports was in the top 3 (if not #1) of prominence, through out the USA. It was like modern day NFL but, you didn't need size and bulk to do it, just practice and skill. While we can all practice not all have the skill it takes to get to the top though Sad

When I started this in '85, it didn't take long to adjust to my 14lb rifle, I got a 6.5x20 Leuplod to start out in the lower magnification but, within 6 months, I left it set at 20X. I was 40 years old then, youth (if you can call it that at 40) and practice allow me to do that. For me, it was mostly dry firing. I was still lacking in skill though Sad

At almost 74, I can still hold a 14lb rifle for a 20 shot OH match, I don't practice and my scores show that, too.

Frank
  

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Schuetzenmiester
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #19 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 3:44pm
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boats wrote on Sep 14th, 2018 at 8:29am:
I wanted strictly traditional and Way I see it long and heavy helps you hold close, depend on getting the bullet out before you move, you are lost from the start.


Boats


That is for sure  Grin  Say you chop 6 inches off the barrel from 28 or 30 inches and your bullet is traveling 1400 fps.  How much difference can the point of aim move in .00036 of a second? Undecided 
  

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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #20 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 4:41pm
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I believe Anschutz said 19" was the optimum length as far as standard velocity 22's. After that velocity would  not normally increase. That's why their 20 series rifles came out at that length.
  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #21 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 5:08pm
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     Useful bbl length for OH is not related to ballistically-optimum length.  It's all about balance, balance, balance.

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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #22 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 8:58pm
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I used to love listening to the high power shooter discuss wind, speed, minutes, angles of this that and something else. Then they'd determine the precise width of the front sight and apperture and such as that. I always figgered it was so they could be certain to miss the bullseye with precision.
  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #23 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:33pm
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Can someone say why muzzle heavy is better.
  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #24 - Sep 14th, 2018 at 10:36pm
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Less moment of inertia - takes longer to get the barrel moving.

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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #25 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 6:46am
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The inertia theory held until the 1990ís when it was replaced with having the center of gravity between the feet, toward the front foot. In standing the gun is moving most of the time so instead of inertia you are dealing with momentum. It is easier to achieve a smaller wobble area and a more consistent hold with a shorter barrel. Compare the Winchester 52 with the Anschutz 54.
  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #26 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 9:03am
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Lots of different opinions on weight and balance.† Most of the other offhand disciplines have rules that limit configuration. Schuetzen no rifle rules at all shooter can set up as he sees fit.

† †Then there is style, look at High power service rifle shooters strapped into coats trying to hold steady .† They are limited to a very light gun. If you shoot approach, method David Tubb details in his book, you settle off the target then swing in breaking the shot as the target center approaches the sights center. That method favors muzzle heavy, it smooths out the swing.† Same reason shotgun shooters use muzzle heavy guns.

Limiting factor how much weight can you handle .† Hook plate, palm rest, standing rifle rest lifting the gun to shoot then rested all compensate for gun weight.  Using the shotgun example I shoot 8 lb SXS guns fine, long days lots of shots.  Next weekend at the Vintage Cup will shoot 4 gages, 10 G event I have a 9 lb hammerless and 10 lb Hammer gun. The 10 pounder uses me up, only saving factor most all 10g are heavy and the other competors have the same issue.

So weight depends on a lot.

Boats
« Last Edit: Sep 15th, 2018 at 9:09am by boats »  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #27 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 12:21pm
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Some of Harry Pope's comments;

Weight of Rifle. For the finest offhand shooting, the rifle must be muzzle heavy. This is not, as most shooters suppose, wholly in the weight of the rifle, but in the disposition of the weight; as much weight as possible should be in the barrel. Weight in the stock and butt plate is useless except in absorbing the recoil. The use of a heavy butt plate is to be condemned. While it tends to balance the rifle when the same is carried free, its weight is entirely on the right shoulder in shooting and does not in any way change the weight supported on the left hand, in fact the rifle at the shoulder is a secondĖclass lever in which the power is the weight of the rifle concentrated at the center of gravity, which should be well beyond the left hand. The fulcrum is the shoulder, and the work is the weight held by the left hand. If the center of gravity is in front of the left hand, then the weight held in the left hand is greater than the rifle. If the center of gravity is behind the left hand, the weight will be less than the weight of the rifle. It is necessary to hold a reasonable amount of weight on the left hand in order that the swing of the rifle may be slow and give one time to pull. It is possible to build a rifle to weigh 12 or 20 pounds and have it hold exactly the same. In other words except to absorb recoil, the shooting weight of a rifle is not what the rifle actually is, but how the weight is distributed. Anyone can prove these facts for themselves, as I have done for many years for my customers, by simply holding the rifle by the butt plate so that it will not overturn on a small platform scale, first weighing the rifle itself, then by supporting it at various places to see what the left hand actually holds, and not forgetting before you finish to tie a couple of points or so onto the butt plate in order to convince yourself that it has absolutely no effect on the weight held by the left hand, and there has no effect on the shooting balance of the rifle and no influence in slowing the movement of the muzzle in aiming.
Stock. The stock should be as straight as possible to conform with comfort. The cheek piece should be high enough so the when the eye is in line with the sights as it presses firmly against the cheek, as this materially helps steady the rifle. The cheek piece if hollowed should have no projection in front, but a straight run for the rifle recoils an appreciable amount before the bullet leaves.
  
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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #28 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 12:56pm
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Harry had it exactly right, nothing has changed since

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Re: Dedicated Offhand Rifle Barrel Recommendation
Reply #29 - Sep 15th, 2018 at 1:16pm
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I shot offhand, not very well, 200 yards, 20 shots + sighters, 3 or 4 relays per day, for ~ 30 years.

Some of us, including some of the better shooters, agreed that offhand rifles should be shorter and lighter than the old time rifles.

Shooting 1 shot every 10-15 minutes is a different game, the olden days with a ticket.
  
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