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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Schoyen chambers (Read 3162 times)
Geezer
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Schoyen chambers
Sep 23rd, 2018 at 11:17am
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Were all of Schoyen's 38-55 barrels chambered for the 2.125 case? Stupid question in a sense because mine accepts that case -- barely-- and yes, I'm going to make a chamber cast. But that will answer the question for my rifle alone.
The issue, really, is whether or not my rifle is an actual Schoyen? I bought it from Steve Garbe and he adamantly claims that John Dutcher told him it was. The rifle has Schoyen type rifling. Problem is I'm an old-fashioned newspaper editor, reporter, columnist, and unless I have at least three ironclad verifications -- for anything--I don't believe it. There is no written, signed and verified provenance for the rifle. It is, however a blindingly accurate Ballard (Pacific receiver) that has all the earmarks of the Schoyen period. The barrel has not been stamped with Schoyen's name, nor does it have "Petersen" stamped on it. The barrel was browned and it still has most of that coloring on it. The receiver has the protruding pin on its left side and I'm having a breech seater made for it.
Any comments on reliable verification procedure will be appreciated, and do any of you know how to directly contact John Dutcher? I believe he's in Denver, CO and I'm willing to go down there if I can make contact with him.
This could be a pretty valuable rifle IF it's really a Schoyen, or it could be just another single-shot pipe dream that wins matches.

  
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John Boy
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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #1 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 11:41am
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Quote:
Problem is I'm an old-fashioned newspaper editor, reporter, columnist, and unless I have at least three ironclad verifications -- for anything--I don't believe it.
Geezer - make it 4 verification's - do a cast of the chamber
  

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John
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Statesrights
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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #2 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 12:37pm
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I’m envious of the “provenance” you already have. If chatting with Dutcher personally would satisfy you, I guess it’s only Garbe’s testimony in question. That would not be a consideration in my mind.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #3 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 1:13pm
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I recently bought what is suppose to be a Peterson #4 barrel. It has the Schoyen style rifling. It's only providence is a set screw, type mark, ahead of the forearm screw, on the bottom flat. Does yours have that?

It's 38/55, with a 2.125 chamber and throated for the Hudson bullet.

Frank
  

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Redsetter
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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #4 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 1:29pm
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Geezer wrote on Sep 23rd, 2018 at 11:17am:
Problem is I'm an old-fashioned newspaper editor, reporter, columnist, and unless I have at least three ironclad verifications -- for anything--I don't believe it.


That attitude probably won't win you many friends on this board, sorry to say; here, many prefer to believe that a "good man's" word, belief, or supposition, should not be questioned, & if you do, you're likely to be put down as a troublemaker.  Especially in regards to what most folks have "always believed" about a thing or event, seeking concrete documentation is by some regarded as bad form, because the self-evident proof of the veracity of what most folks have "always believed" it is that none previously disputed it; insistence on further verification may very well be interpreted as evidence of one's contentiousness.

  
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John Boy
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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #5 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 2:05pm
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Redsetter ...  Wink Smiley Grin
  

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John
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art_ruggiero
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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #6 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 4:02pm
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redsetter,  are you going to law school? Cheesy   art
  
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svartkruttgris#369
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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #7 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 5:57pm
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I always wondered why I thought Redsetter is a nice guy ......
  
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JLouis
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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #8 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 6:10pm
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If it's not clearly marked what one thinks it to be, I don't think it could ever be proven to be so unfortunately.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #9 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 6:53pm
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I've been a fan of George C. Schoyen for many decades, and am always trying to examine every Schoyen I can at any place I can find one to inspect. I've known John Dutcher casually for as long as I've been interested in Schoyen rifles, and never heard him mention unmarked Schoyen barrels? I've never had a Schoyen handed to me to look at that didn't have his roll stamp of "GEO C SCHOYEN DENVER, CO" on the top barrel flat.
I wont say "never" as there are far too many Schoyen barreled guns out there that I've never seen. But I would be skeptical of any gun presented to me as a Schoyen that didn't have his rollstamp.
Schoyen rifling is very distinct, and I've not seen anyone doing exactly the same. If anyone might be close I"d guess it would be Barry Darr, as I've been told he too was a Schoyen fan, and did similar rifling. Not sure how close Barry's is to Schoyen's, but might be very close?
But basing a gun maker's work simply on rifling style wouldn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling. If the gun was cheap enough to not matter, then I'd be OK. But if I'm buying a Schoyen it better have his stamp on the barrel, or be a huge bargain without it. I own three Schoyen rifles and all have his rollstamp on the barrels.
Two of mine are .32-40, and one is a .38-55 Ballard. The .38-55 takes full length cases just fine, and twist rate is 1:15" which seems to be pretty standard for Schoyen's .38-55 chambered barrels.
If you have John Dutcher's book, he shows images of Schoyen's rifling on page 347. You'll notice the wide grooves and narrow lands, plus right hand twist of his rifling. You'll also notice Schoyen's cutter was convex, not squared off like Pope's, so Schoyen grooves are parallel to the bore and curved in the bottom of the groove. Not flat bottomed like Pope's cutter left the grooves.
John Dutcher does not take phone calls as he can't hear well enough to talk on the phone. He doesn't do email that I know of either. He might answer a letter if you sent him a question, and put a self addressed stamped envelope inside to return to you. A simple Google search for John Dutcher will bring up his address. I probably wouldn't drop by without arranging by letter, but it will give you a place to send a question.
  

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Geezer
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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #10 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 7:36pm
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All your comments are most appreciated -- and in cases of Redsetter and John Boy, entertaining. Contentious? Yup, from the time I was born. It's made me a good, not by any means lavish, living. It's also made me some enemies and I have deep appreciation for enemies. They often prove I'm right, but sometimes let me know I'm wrong. That's even better.
  
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old7groove
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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #11 - Sep 23rd, 2018 at 8:51pm
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My rifling style was copied from Geo. Schoyen having either 7 or 9 rifling grooves and uniform rh twist. All rifles fitted with my barrels in my shop were ALL stamped  B.W. Darr. I did however sell a few barrel  blanks to several reputable and capable gunsmiths. A check of my barrel record's did not reveal doing business with Mr Garbe. John Dutcher would be the go to man to help identify your barrel.
B.W. Darr
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #12 - Sep 24th, 2018 at 9:39am
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Geezer
When George Schoyen and after him Axel Peterson and for that matter H.M. Pope made rifles a 38-55 was 2.125" Long that is the size of a 38-55. Also 38 caliber rifles were .380" bore not this new-fangled .375".

40 Rod
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #13 - Sep 24th, 2018 at 9:56am
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Since I haven't slugged any other Schoyen .38-55 chambered barrels, I can only comment on mine. But mine runs .381" and loves the old Doc Hudson Ideal mold I cast with.
The Schoyen Ballard it's fitted to was the first custom schuetzen rifle I ever purchased, and I had no idea who Geo. C. Schoyen was when I saw the name on the barrel. Fortunately the gun shop selling it didn't either, so the price was very affordable. The shop owner actually stopped me as I was pulling my money out and said, "Before you get in too big a hurry; I want you to see some "idiot" put his name on the barrel!"
I looked at the rollstamp and thought it looked way too nice to be some owner marking his name on it. Got home and called a friend who was far more knowledgeable than I was, and he came over to look at the gun, and filled me in on what I'd purchased.
Sometimes a lack of knowledge can be a benefit on the buyer's part. Had I known more, I'd probably never gotten the Schoyen; or at least at the price.
  

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Re: Schoyen chambers
Reply #14 - Sep 24th, 2018 at 10:50am
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Redsetter, et al.
Did I miss something; that seeking the truth however unpopular is not the right way to go. Google did dig up some interesting quotes and an assertion that the Mark Twain quote on truth (2nd quote) can't not be relied on as his.

Opinions are one thing but provability is far more difficult.

Upton Sinclair wrote this, that "It's difficult to get a man to understand something if his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

Mark Twain — 'Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.'

Mark Twain - “What gets us into trouble is not what we don't know. It's what we know for sure that just ain't so."

Just my tuppence.
  
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