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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rowland's and Pope's group questions (Read 6712 times)
JLouis
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #45 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 1:51pm
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Kelly's 20X Sidle was not a 3/4" straight a tube Frank I believe you are mistaking it for his tube sight and pictured above his 20X Sidle mounted on his rifle in the below picture. If memory serves me right the tube was 7/8 and the bell 2 1/8 I would need to go look in another reference book where it is very clearly pointed out.

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #46 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:00pm
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JLouis wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 1:51pm:
Kelly's 20X Sidle was not a 3/4" straight a tube Frank I believe you are mistaking it for his tube sight and pictured above his 20X Sidle mounted on his rifle in the below picture.

JLouis


Scope mounted on rifle is a Fecker that Smith says he put there himself.  Above it is the Sidel.

Tube sight shown on p 115, also 20X, 1 in. Sidel.
« Last Edit: Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:12pm by Redsetter »  
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #47 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:03pm
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frnkeore wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 12:38pm:
That looks like it could be a later Souther scope.


Maybe--can't the original auction listing be pulled up to identify it?
  
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #48 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:14pm
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JLouis wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 1:51pm:
Kelly's 20X Sidle was not a 3/4" straight a tube Frank I believe you are mistaking it for his tube sight and pictured above his 20X Sidle mounted on his rifle in the below picture. If memory serves me right the tube was 7/8 and the bell 2 1/8 I would need to go look in another reference book where it is very clearly pointed out.

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Smith says that HE put the 1 5/8 objective, Fecker scope on the rifle, because the optics in the 20X, 3/4" Sidle weren't very good.

The picture shows what is obviously a 1 5/8 Fecker scope, with Fecker mounts.

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #49 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:26pm
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A better picture of Roland's scope is picture below. When looking at the 38-55 HiWall pictured below it and  owner not mentioned it appears to be same Sidle 3/4" 20X as noted and a bit to hard to see the same two diameters in the tube. Also the tube sight pictured above it appears to be the be the same as shown above Kelly's 20X Sidle scope with the larger tube and bell size.

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #50 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:46pm
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I'm not sure if I'm understanding you, JL. But, the Sidle scope pictured above the 1 5/8" Fecker, on Kelly's rifle is a single 3/4" diameter, other than the eye piece, as well as the other Sidle in the 38/55 picture.

Thank you for the Rowland scope picture. Now, who may have made it, Souther or someone else?

Frank
  

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #51 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 2:54pm
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frnkeore wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 3:44am:
Bob,
I used .562 for 9/16 and not .5625.

I would bet that the 1/2 x 9/16 measurement, was done with a scale so, there is some leeway, I would assume in those numbers.

Added:
The angle is 41.63354 or, 41 deg  38'  .744" Wink

Adding that extra .0005 to my .562, gives .75259966. So, your closer  Smiley

But, that's evenly spaced dimensions, not like Rowlands group is.

The devil in the details.

Frank

If there was a picture of a single shot through the same paper it would be much easier to make a more accurate determination of the approximate measurement  Grin
  

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #52 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 3:46pm
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I do understand what you are referring to but further research will show that what is stated in the picture I believe to be true and that the scope mounted is indeed a Sidle 20X. One will find some clarification in " The Breech Loading Single Shot Match Rifle" by Roberts and Waters as to the size of bells being from 1 1/8 to 1 3/4 inside diameter and the tube 3/4" to 7/8". It also states the larger belled scopes with the achromatic lens  system we're unsurpassedand optically and mechanically and we're superior to the Fecker, Lyman, Unertl etc. This also being in reference to the 16X 1 3/4 objective scope Sidle made for Dr. Mann in 1912. I now need go locate the reference material showing a picture of the these particular Sidle scopes with the larger tube and bell size also appearing to be the same as the Fecker but actually being a Sidle and also it's reference as being used by John D Kelly. FH Souther also made scopes with a 3/4" tube and objective sizes of 1", 1 1/8", 1 1/4", 1 1/2" or any size desired by the customer. There is also reference to the objective not being micrometer adjustabe but I am not clear to what this might mean only that the focus could be accomplished in 1/4 the time. I also don't see any mention of the various powers that were available. Now to go and find the pictures of the Sidle being the same as the one pictured on Kelly's rifle and additional reference to it. It's here some where in a box from when I moved but where has yet to be determined. Just not up to it right now just to prove a point on something I already know to hold true to myself based on my own research so don't hold your breath it might take awhile if and when I am feeling up to it

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #53 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 3:54pm
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John, do Sidle scopes have their adjustment in the center, like a Fecker?

Aaron
  

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #54 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 3:57pm
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Good Luck, JL and no, I won't hold my breath. Smiley

Regarding the Kelly picture, Smith, himself said he put a 1 5/8 Fecker on it. If it looks like a Fecker, and smells like a Fecker, aluminum mounts and the owner says it's a Fecker, It just might be a Fecker.

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #55 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 4:30pm
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Frank re-read what it says about the tube above the scope pictured on the 38-55 rifle there is a coma and after it, it clearly states it as being a tube sight with six apretures. Then go back and look at the same type of tube sight being pictured above Kelly's Sidle scope. When your done doing that go and do some further research on Kelly's tube sight all of the information on it is out there if you are willing to go look for it.Trying to argue about it as not being a tube sight but a scope is counter productive not only to yourself but also the group. And I don't means this to be derogatory so please do not take it as such.

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #56 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 4:44pm
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JLouis wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 4:30pm:
Frank re-read what it says about the tube above the scope pictured on the 38-55 rifle there is a coma and after it, it clearly states it as being a tube sight with six apretures. Then go back and look at the same type of tube sight being pictured above Kelly's Sidle scope. When your done doing that go and do some further research on Kelly's tube sight all of the information on it is out there if you are willing to go look for it.Trying to argue about it as not being a tube sight but a scope is counter productive not only to yourself but also the group. And I don't means this to be derogatory so please do not take it as such.

JLouis

John, I don't mean this to be derogatory but, Your English and comprehension skills are lacking, you list things, using comas, ( 1, 2, 3, 4, and so on) (he did this, then he did that, then he did another thing) or (he showed me his rifle, scope, mold, seater, decaper and loading rod).

Find your sources and get back to us, please.

Frank
« Last Edit: Dec 3rd, 2018 at 6:20pm by frnkeore »  

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #57 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 5:18pm
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frnkeore wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 4:44pm:
Find your sources and get back to us, please.

Frank


The source for these particular photos is Smith, but he discusses TWO different Pope rifles with TWO different Sidel scopes. Furthermore, the text is not matched to the photos--you have to turn back & forth to read the descriptions. 

The 2-diameter scope is on a Pope in Roberts' BLSSR, but he doesn't identify the scope; could very well be a Sidel, but he doesn't say.
« Last Edit: Dec 3rd, 2018 at 5:37pm by Redsetter »  
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #58 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 6:24pm
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I gave you two of the sources Frank along with pictures. If you cannot read and understand what is being clearly pointed out in just those two examples alone. Unfortunately there is really nothing more I can do for your of lack of being able to understand the simplicity of what is being said and what the pictures clearly indicate. To try and provide you with more would simply be a waste of my valued time. I was just showing a close friend who just stopped by to visit the picture of the 38-55 and asked him what it said. The top one with the six apretures is a tube sight as stated and the bottom one is a scope was his reply. Hopefully someone else here might have the back ground and the ability to somehow make it easier for you to understand and would be willing to do that for you. This is not being derogatory nor should it be taken as such it is just simply well beyond my own capabilities to do so.

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #59 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 6:47pm
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OK, JL, this is what I said:


Quote:
I'm not sure if I'm understanding you, JL. But, the Sidle scope pictured above the 1 5/8" Fecker, on Kelly's rifle is a single 3/4" diameter tube (I added that, maybe that's where you lost my meaning), other than the eye piece, as well as the other Sidle in the 38/55 picture.


Please note that I'm talking about KELLY'S rifle, not the 38/55 HW.

The 20X Sidle, is pictured above the 1 5/8 Fecker scope, in Fecker mounts. The larger scope IS NOT a Sidle.

I was noting that the 20X, 3/4 straight tube Sidle's in BOTH pictures, look the same. I said nothing about the tube sight.

Frank
  

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