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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rowland's and Pope's group questions (Read 6771 times)
JLouis
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #60 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 6:57pm
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Redsetter when time allows I will try to locate the other information I had mentioned in a previous post to pass onto you. It may take sometime as I can only do it now when times allows and it will take some time once I start digging through what I still have put away from the move if you would still like to have it.

JLouis
  
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JLouis
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #61 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 7:09pm
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Aaron the one I am referring to is very similar and when time allows as mentioned I will try and find it so I can clarify it for the group. I just don't have time right now and Redsetter do you happen to know off the top of your head if Fecker worked for Sidle at some point in time.

JLouis
  
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Redsetter
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #62 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 7:43pm
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JLouis wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 7:09pm:
Redsetter do you happen to know off the top of your head if Fecker worked for Sidle at some point in time.

JLouis


Never--he was a much younger man. Fecker's father worked for Warner & Swasey in Cleveland, & he hinted that he had done so too before starting his scope business.
  
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JLouis
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #63 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 7:59pm
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Thanks Redsetter and it was probably Pope I was thinking about so thanks again.
  
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AndyZ
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #64 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 8:04pm
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Just to confuse the scope issue a bit more:  The Amoskeag catalog description describes the scope as a custom made Stevens two diameter 20 power scope in special Stevens mount.  Presumably they knew what they had in hand.  We did see and examine the rifle and no one took exception to the description.  Course none of us was examining the rifle as a buyer...!!!  This is the scope sold with the rifle.  Who knows what scope the group was shot with.
  
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JLouis
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #65 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 8:27pm
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Thanks Andy the mystery of it all continues on and what you shared is indeed quite interesting. Also appears some of the scope makers also went out of their way to provide what each individual wanted beyond what might have been considered to be a stock item.
  
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Redsetter
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #66 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 11:07pm
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AndyZ wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 8:04pm:
† The Amoskeag catalog description describes the scope as a custom made Stevens two diameter 20 power scope in special Stevens mount.†


Fred Smith, Steven's scope builder, did build a few custom made scopes that never appeared in any Stevens catalog.

But if that's a "crossbar" I see in the end of the thimble of the rear mount, that mount is a Winchester #2, not Stevens.† Ends of Stevens #8 thimbles are flat, #4, domed.  Replacing the grasshopper spring with a coil spring & plunger was the same modification made by the Marines & others; I once had one "improved" in that way.†
« Last Edit: Dec 3rd, 2018 at 11:40pm by Redsetter »  
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Redsetter
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #67 - Dec 3rd, 2018 at 11:28pm
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AndyZ wrote on Dec 3rd, 2018 at 8:04pm:
Who knows what scope the group was shot with.


Believe I saw it identified somewhere as a Malcolm.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #68 - Dec 4th, 2018 at 11:30am
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I always have a bit of skepticism when looking at most auction information, as there are far more times the auction houses get things wrong than right. So what an auction house says is so in an auction doesn't hold a lot of weight with me.
On some guns or accessories I've had the opportunity to personally examine, I've often wondered how they could get things so wrong when it was obvious to almost any collector the information was way off.
Now what is published or printed in various books by well regarded authors of single shot expertise is much more reliable. I'd tend to be more comfortable believing noted author's information than I would an auction house description.
  

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40_Rod
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #69 - Dec 4th, 2018 at 12:25pm
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Authors and auctioneers often get the details wrong. The mounts on a Sidle scope look similar to Malcolmb mounts to the casula eye. I'm betting they were Sidle mounts and the author made a mistake. To answer another question adjustments were made to Sidle scopes in a similar manner as the Winchester A5 scopes.

40 Rod
  
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rkba2nd
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #70 - Dec 4th, 2018 at 1:40pm
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John Dutcher was involved in identifying, cataloging, and describing the collection for Mr. Day's family. This is not to say that John was responsible for the description of the scope in question, but it would be important, from a historical standpoint to correctly identify most anything associated with Rowland's personal rifles. I will be seeing John in the near future, and will ask him about this if the time is appropriate.
  

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Redsetter
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #71 - Dec 4th, 2018 at 2:04pm
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40_Rod wrote on Dec 4th, 2018 at 12:25pm:
Authors and auctioneers often get the details wrong. The mounts on a Sidle scope look similar to Malcolmb mounts to the casula eye. I'm betting they were Sidle mounts and the author made a mistake.


Correct about the resemblance, but one thing clear from that photo is that whatever the rear mount is, it's a sliding mount, not a "Malcolm-type," which holds the scope rigidly.  (Not to complicate the situation unnecessarily, but for the record, Sidel did make a sliding mount of his own design, but they're SO rare, I've never even seen a photo of one!)
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #72 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:44am
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Also one other note the Sidle target scopes were either the A a 1" tube that could be furnished up to 32' long or the #1 that was a 7/8' tube that again could be up to 32" in length.
The magnification on these scopes could be had from 20X to 8X and they were the only Sidle scopes furnished with sliding mounts standard. The lower priced scopes could be ordered with sliding mounts at an extra price.
All Sidle scopes were a single tube diameter at the time of Rowlands shooting. Given that both Rowland and Kelly were fairly well-off and spared no expense with equipment my guess is that they used the A scope with a 1" tube I read somewhere that Rolands scope was a 20X which would lead me to belive it was an A scope also.

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marlinguy
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #73 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 8:02pm
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And here's a write up Ned Roberts did on Pope and Dr. Hudson's offhand shooting:

"From about 1888 to the late 1920ís, Harry Pope and Dr. W. G. Hudson were two of the most skillful, most expert offhand riflemen in the United States, and itís extremely doubtful if there were any riflemen in Germany, Switzerland or any other country who could make higher offhand scores at 200 yards or 200 meters than either of these famous experts. In 1904, H. M. Pope had made six 10-shot scores of 97 and 21 of 96 at 200 yards offhand on the Standard American Target, while Dr. Hudson had made at least one 10-shot score of 99 out of a possible 100 on the same target at 200 yards offhand, as well as a 100 shot score of 922 out of a possible 1,000 on the Standard American Target. Pope had then made ten 3-shot scores of 74 out of a possible 75 on the German Ring Target at 200 yards offhand, and Dr. Hudson had made nearly as many equally high 3-shot scores on that target. All of these very high scores by Pope and Hudson were made at regular matches and in the presence of many witnesses."
  

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JLouis
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #74 - Dec 5th, 2018 at 8:16pm
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I read somewhere I believe Pope was on his way to a perfect target, record or some such thing and the rifle missed fired. Or he forget to seat a new primer or dump the powder it's been so long since I read about it I now probably have it all screwed up? All though I used to shoot offhand matches and did good in a few of the matches. Bench shooting has always been my own personal enjoyment with competitive shooting so I don't pay allot of intention to it but I think I got it somewhat close?
  
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