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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Rowland's and Pope's group questions (Read 8057 times)
40_Rod
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #90 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 10:09am
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I'm not disputing the outcome  or making any excuses. Pope lost his concentration and the match. However i am pointing out that Pope never gave up both before and after the mistake he out shot Hudson. If it wasn't for an interruption and a mistake we would be calling it a Pope match.

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marlinguy
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #91 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 11:31am
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There's no doubt that Hudson and Pope were probably two of the finest shooters of their day, and maybe long after they stopped shooting!
But Hudson shot and won a lot more big matches all over the US, and even in Europe. Likely because he was a professional shooter, and wealthy. Pope shot professionally in some money matches, but was more of an amateur shooter, and did it part time after work hours. I would guess if Pope had spent as much time shooting, or decided to turn pro, he might have been the finest shooter in the world.
  

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #92 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 12:36pm
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Don't believe Pope could just be considered to be an amateur he traveled to matches and also spent time over seas competing and did very well. I believe his shooting career was just cut short from both getting bluing chemicals in his eye ruining it and then severing the tendon in his wrist and pretty much putting an end to it all. An amatuer " apprentice, aspirant, beginner, entrant, fledging, freshman, inexperienced person, layman, novice. " and I just don't see how one could possibly include him into that group.
  
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #93 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 2:42pm
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You forgot this one:


Definition of amateur

1 : one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #94 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 4:33pm
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JLouis wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 12:36pm:
Don't believe Pope could just be considered to be an amateur he traveled to matches and also spent time over seas competing and did very well. I believe his shooting career was just cut short from both getting bluing chemicals in his eye ruining it and then severing the tendon in his wrist and pretty much putting an end to it all. An amatuer " apprentice, aspirant, beginner, entrant, fledging, freshman, inexperienced person, layman, novice. " and I just don't see how one could possibly include him into that group.


Pope did not go overseas to compete in matches. He went there to represent his uncle's company, but took his gun along to shoot as any avid shooter would. His main time overseas was spent observing automobile manufacture in hopes he could better help his uncle's company, as Albert Pope was getting into automobile manufacture.
Pope shot as much as he could without interfering with his main reason to be overseas. But he was never a professional shooter. He was an excellent amateur, and good enough to compete with many professionals. But he never did so as a living, so would not be classified as a professional.
His travels to matches inside the US were very limited, and mostly in the NE within a short travel distance from his work and home.
  

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #95 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 7:48pm
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Obviously our opinions based on your research and then my own differ a bit but its surely not worth grinding yet another axe over as far as I am concerned.

JLouis
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #96 - Dec 7th, 2018 at 11:00pm
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JLouis wrote on Dec 7th, 2018 at 7:48pm:
Obviously our opinions based on your research and then my own differ a bit but its surely not worth grinding yet another axe over as far as I am concerned.

JLouis


No ax to grind John. I simply know that Pope did not travel to Europe to compete in matches. He traveled on his uncle's dollar, and at his request to represent the Pope Bicycle Co.
  

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #97 - Dec 8th, 2018 at 3:27pm
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I have read he went to Europe to research motor car motors so I guess it all depends on the information one reads not that it really matters one way or the other. The only interesting part of his journey to me was the competitive shooting that took place while he was there.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #98 - Dec 8th, 2018 at 6:49pm
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JLouis wrote on Dec 8th, 2018 at 3:27pm:
I have read he went to Europe to research motor car motors so I guess it all depends on the information one reads not that it really matters one way or the other. The only interesting part of his journey to me was the competitive shooting that took place while he was there.


That's what I said earlier if you recall? He did go to observe how cars were built, since France had been building them longer. And the Pope Bicycle Co. paid for him to go and observe the operations overseas.
This all interests me, because I think it's part of Pope's history, and I admire the man and want to know as much about his life as I can find. But the shooting is a side note in this part of his history. Although I can imagine a very fine shooter like Pope welcomed the opportunity to take a trip to Europe and the opportunity to see how he stacked up against Europe's best.
I wish there was some documentation on how he did shooting there during the trip, or how much shooting he did, and where.
  

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #99 - Dec 8th, 2018 at 8:45pm
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His shooting success over Sea's has been documented and also highly recognized and awarded. Where it was actually published or I should say where I read it I simply can't recall from the ill effects from my stroke. But it is out there if one is willing to take the time to search for it of which at this point in my life I am not willing to do. But if anyone can recall and readliy share that information I think it would be Schuetzen Bob his historical record keeping and recall is second to none that I have yet to come accross.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #100 - Dec 9th, 2018 at 9:50am
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The only documentation I've ever found was in Ray Smith's book, "The Story of Pope's Barrel's". But it is vague, and based on Pope's description to Smith. It simply states that he took the opportunity to mix "some business with pleasure" by competing in shooting events while there.
He goes on to say that Pope accumulated "various and sundry medals" during his time there. No mention of where he shot, how many matches, or what the medals were?
  

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #101 - Dec 9th, 2018 at 2:11pm
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Vall I believe it might have came from an article in the ASSRA Journal back around 2004 when there were several real nice articles covering a variety of the old Schuetzen shooters, The National Schuetzenbund etc. If I happen to run accross the one on Pope again I will pass it onto you and any of the others I might find. There were several that I think you might enjoy reading and one that comes to mind is Pope's views on the HiWall vs. the Ballard. It can be found in the Single Shot Rifle Journal Vol. 59, No. 2 March - April 2005 on page 46. There are several good articles in this addition including ASSRA - The Beginning. I have several duplicates and if this might be one of them and you don't already have it I would be more than happy to send one to you. I will take a look through the stack when time allows and if I do happen to have a duplicate I will let you know.

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #102 - Dec 9th, 2018 at 7:47pm
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I'll check my old copies also, and see if I have that volume.

I know there are some fellas here on the board who have vast knowledge of Pope through years of collecting. I hope they chime in here, as I love reading input on HM Pope and his life! And the other great custom gun builders too!
  

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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #103 - Dec 9th, 2018 at 7:52pm
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Same here Vall and sadly there is not enough detailed information on Schoyen whom some considered to put out better barrels than Pope did.
  
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Re: Rowland's and Pope's group questions
Reply #104 - Dec 9th, 2018 at 7:59pm
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JLouis wrote on Dec 9th, 2018 at 7:52pm:
Same here Vall and sadly there is not enough detailed information on Schoyen whom some considered to put out better barrels than Pope did.


I've written down as much information as I can find on George C Schoyen, and also everything I can recall whenever I see John Dutcher and can ask him questions about Schoyen.
John is probably the absolute most well informed resource on all thing s Schoyen, and knew the family (or still knows them). His historical information on Schoyen goes way beyond just guns, barrels, etc., and is extremely interesting.
I personally would put any of my Schoyen barreled guns up against any built by Pope, as I feel the two were very equally matched barrel makers.
Where Schoyen prevailed over Pope was in other aspects of single shot gun building. He did much more than just make fine barrels. He did gorgeous stock work, and metal work, and was probably one of the finest all around gun talents ever!
  

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