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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Fred Ross (Read 12273 times)
ledball
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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #30 - Feb 5th, 2019 at 5:23pm
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It appears that Ross was every bit the shooter as Hudson but, Hudson had a better press agent.  Ledball
  
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RSW
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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #31 - Feb 5th, 2019 at 8:45pm
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Fred Ross at the 3rfd National Schuetzen Bund tournament at Shell Mound Park, July 1901. From the San Francisco Call Newspaper.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #32 - Feb 6th, 2019 at 12:17pm
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Hudson was probably one of the finest shooters in his time. He was a money match shooter, and made his living from winning big money matches. He needed no PR guy, as his long list of winning big money made the news without any assistance.
Ross was indeed a equally good shooter, but I think Ross had other irons in the fire with work, and didn't shoot as a full time job. Had he done it full time, he might have been even more famous than Hudson.
  

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Poorhouse
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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #33 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 3:11pm
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I once had Stevens 49 (44 1/2) with very similar muzzle-loading set-up to Pope, but RH twist.  Not sure of barrel marking, but seem to recall standard Stevens. Unfortunately cannot find the barrel number.....
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #34 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 5:46pm
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Poorhouse wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 3:11pm:
I once had Stevens 49 (44 1/2) with very similar muzzle-loading set-up to Pope, but RH twist.  Not sure of barrel marking, but seem to recall standard Stevens. Unfortunately cannot find the barrel number.....


As was mentioned above, at some point after Pope left Stevens, Ross changed from left hand twist to right hand twist. But it wasn't as soon as Pope left. Not sure why Ross or Stevens decided to change the Stevens-Pope to right hand, but they eventually did.
I guess the only way to know for sure is to get input from owners of Stevens-Pope barrels made higher than around 1250, to see when they changed to right hand twist.
  

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ledball
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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #35 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 6:08pm
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I thought all Stevens Pope’s were left hand twist, 1740 is left hand twist.   Ledball
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #36 - Apr 13th, 2019 at 6:14pm
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ledball wrote on Apr 13th, 2019 at 6:08pm:
I thought all Stevens Pope’s were left hand twist, 1740 is left hand twist.   Ledball


#1749 is right hand. Seems we may have narrowed down when they changed. Unless it's like so many things Stevens, and numbers mean nothing.
  

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squibshot
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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #37 - Feb 7th, 2020 at 12:13pm
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The following info comes from Shooting and Fishing and Precision Shooting September 2006.  Fred Ross according to his death certificate was born in NJ in 1862.  He lived in NJ and NYC until 1901 when he moved to Springfield Ma. to work for J. Stevens Arms and Tool Co. He worked as a machinist and head of the testing department. His specialty was match rifle assembly and testing along side Harry Pope.  Prior to 1913 Stevens supplied 32-40 and 38-55 barrels similar to Pope rifling  with 8 wide grooves and very narrow lands but a uniform right hand twist.  shooters of the day called it Stevens-Ross rifling believing that it was designed by Fred Ross.  Ross also worked for Stevens as a company shooter attending most of the important shoots of the period and represented Stevens at trade fairs and sportsman's shows. In 1912 or 13 Ross opened his own sheet metal shop. It appears his association with Stevens was on a part time or as needed basis. Before his association with Stevens Ross mostly shot a Schalck Ballard. Ross's winning election day target (2338) is on display in the reception area of the Savage Arms Co. Westfield Ma.  He and Michael Dorrler fought many battles during the Election Day matches and Ross had the highest score in that yearly event until Dr. Hudson in 1903 made a 2301 a new world record on the ring  target.  In the 1904 Election Day Match Ross used a Stevens 32-40-200 Breach Seating primed with Dupont rifle powder and the balance FF Kings Semi-Smokeless. His Stevens telescope fitted with a special pin-head reticle. Notice he did not use a Pope muzzle loader.  Pope attended this shoot and won the match with a score of 2276 and  of course used the Pope System of loading.  Pope shot a Stevens-Pope 33-40-220 and used only one cartridge case, recharging it for every shot. Ross finished in third place with Dr. Hudson second.  In this match Ross used a palm rest.  His shooting position was hip out and left leg vertical while leaning back considerably.  Ross died of coronary thrombosis at his home 40 High Street Springfield Ma. on March 16 1944. He is buried in Hillcrest park cemetery in Springfield Ma. His obituary made no mention of his marksmanship accomplishments only his position at Stevens as head of the testing department.
  
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JLouis
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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #38 - Feb 7th, 2020 at 12:20pm
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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #39 - Feb 8th, 2020 at 10:01am
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I've been asked to forward this note from Peterson 25-20SS.
"1) Pope did make right hand twist barrels at both Stevens and Jersey City. My Stevens Pope number 673 is right hand twist .32 caliber on the Krag case. The thing about Pope right hand twist barrels is they are for jacketed bullets not cast lead.
2) As far as Ross and Stevens changing Pope rifling to right hand twist-if they did it was very late. My Stevens-Pope barrel number 1944 is left hand gain twist."
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #40 - Feb 8th, 2020 at 12:57pm
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Quarter_Bore wrote on Feb 8th, 2020 at 10:01am:
I've been asked to forward this note from Peterson 25-20SS.
"1) Pope did make right hand twist barrels at both Stevens and Jersey City. My Stevens Pope number 673 is right hand twist .32 caliber on the Krag case. The thing about Pope right hand twist barrels is they are for jacketed bullets not cast lead.
2) As far as Ross and Stevens changing Pope rifling to right hand twist-if they did it was very late. My Stevens-Pope barrel number 1944 is left hand gain twist."


My Stevens-Pope #1749 mentioned above is right hand twist. It falls into the serial number range made after HM Pope's departure, and is a .32-40, so not a high power cartridge, or one I'd consider to be a jacketed bullet caliber.
So it would seem that Stevens did indeed build Stevens-Pope barrels in RH twist, and not just in jacketed caliber barrels.
  

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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #41 - Feb 9th, 2020 at 9:42pm
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The Fay family that owned Steavens at that time would not have just quit making the Pope style barrels and thrown that tooling away just because Pope left. The company still owned the tooling. It was common in those day's when products were sold to another company the new owner got all the tooling and existing inventory and material in process. When Lyman bought the optics  system from Winchester they found themselves with a large amount of A5 Winchester Scope stuff. So they used it up and just changed the name to Lyman 5A until they used up all that inventory and Tooling and then came out with their own system called the Targetspot.  they also did the same thing with the Steavens line of Telescopes and the Steavens 438 became the Lyman 438. I have them both and feel that the Lyman version is the better scope.
So the issue of Ross making Steavens Pope rifles was most likely the Fay family told him to use up any inventory in process and Tooling until it was no longer good tooling. HTH Regards, FITZ OLD TUCK Smiley
  
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Bill Lawrence
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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #42 - Feb 9th, 2020 at 10:05pm
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Vall is right that the .32-40 is not normally considered a jacketed bullet cartridge.  But in my collection are UMC (not Remington-UMC) two-piece boxes, one containing .25-25 cartridges, the other .32-40s.  Both boxes state "High Velocity", both have "HV" as part of the head stamp, and both have jacketed bullets.  Now, the .32-40s could have been intended for a Winchester Model 1894 or a Savage 99, but the .25-25s have to have been for either a high-wall or a Stevens.

This does not, of course, prove Quarter_Bore's assertion about RH vs. LH twist.  But it does suggest that in the early 1900s, the beginnings of the quest for small-bore, high-velocity cartridges did spill over into what were previously primarily target cartridges.

Bill Lawrence
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #43 - Feb 9th, 2020 at 10:59pm
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Fitz, you are indeed correct about Ross continuing the production of Stevens-Pope rifles after Pope's departure. I've read that rifles made under the time HM Pope was there ended around serial #1325-1350? So any barrels marked Stevens-Pope at higher numbers were made under the supervision of Fred Ross. Still wonderful barrels, and most say they shoot as good as the ones made while Pope was there.
But it did end when Pope was out West in San Francisco and got word somehow that Stevens was still using his name on their guns. He sent a letter to them telling them to cease using his name on barrels or he would take legal action against them. So at that time they at least stopped marking the barrels with Pope's name.
  

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Re: Fred Ross
Reply #44 - Feb 11th, 2020 at 6:06pm
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I took a cell phone picture of this and printed it out to put in a little frame.  I would love to have a full size reproduction of the original that Stevens used for advertising.
  

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