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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Winchester proof pressures (Read 944 times)
marlinguy
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #15 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 12:45pm
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I don't recall where I read the article now, but the late Buhmiller did a destructive test of an 1885 Winchester High Wall action. He chambered a barrel in .30-06 and did a 50% overload, and fired it in his test rest. It opened and functioned fine. He then went to 100% overload and the same result. After that he tapped the end of the barrel and installed a pipe plug to block the bore. He fired another over pressure load, which resulted in the barrel splitting wide open in front of the action. The action still held, but would not open, as it was sprung. He removed the barrel, and forced the action open to look for damage. It had no cracks, and damage was relegated to the action sides pushed out, but nothing more.
Pretty impressive results, and spoke to how strong the High Wall action is.
  

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OLD TUCK
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #16 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:28pm
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marlinguy, Buhmiller did do such a test. It was published in the Rifleman, and it was many years ago. I found it somehow in the early sixties. He started with 45-70 barreled action and started with heavy over loads with smokeless
powder. All he could seem to do was blow out the strikers and in some cases destroy the Hammer. He took that as far as he could and then started using obstructions in the bore. Usually the same result so he started stacking them.
He finally quit when some number of heavy bullets driven into the bore also gas cut the bridge at the bottom of the receiver at the front. I really do believe I have that some where. Will try to find it. FITZ. OLD TUCK Smiley
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #17 - Feb 9th, 2019 at 8:48pm
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Thanks for clarifying that JR Buhmiller test Fitz! Been a long time since I read it.
  

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freebird
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #18 - Feb 10th, 2019 at 7:22am
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the complete account of that test on a high wall action has been printed in "The Winchester Single Shot, Vol ii" by John Campbell, chapter 2.
For those who would like to read it.
  
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Redsetter
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #19 - Feb 10th, 2019 at 12:09pm
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freebird wrote on Feb 10th, 2019 at 7:22am:
the complete account of that test on a high wall action has been printed in "The Winchester Single Shot, Vol ii" by John Campbell, chapter 2.
For those who would like to read it.


Thanks for waking us up!  Because I and many others here have that book, yet it took someone residing in France to remind us of it!  I even looked in a cumulative Rifleman index & failed to find it.
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #20 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:31am
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Winchester used the High Wall action for pressure testing until well into the 60s.

40 Rod
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #21 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 11:04am
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I have had such low regard for volume 2 of Campbell's book that it rarely leaves the shelf! Volume 1 is such a wonderful treatise, and 2 was just a big disappointment for me.
So now I'll have to dig it out, and dust it off to read that test once more!
  

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CW
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #22 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 1:07pm
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I read this all in bits over days as it was posted and sorry if I missed it.... What is the pressure ceiling for normal loads - I know, case size, back pressure and hoop strength, and what pressure is a proof load trying to produce?

In bolt rifles 50,000 regardless of case design is starting to flirt with max.
Proof pressures 1.5X  ???
  
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Redsetter
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #23 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 2:20pm
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CW wrote on Feb 11th, 2019 at 1:07pm:
Proof pressures 1.5X  ???


Seems to be what most of the books say is customary.
  
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #24 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 5:35pm
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The question of Hi Wall strength comes up occasionally and I usually refer to an article printed in the ASSRA magazine many years ago. In the article there was picture of the action used by  Olin Matheson for proof testing. They would install a short barrel on the action and proof test the load. After firing the case was punched out with a wooden dowel since the action had no extractor. When OM stopped using this action method the action was given to an employee.
  
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CW
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #25 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 7:48pm
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This subject is interesting to me because I have a hand full of low-wall actions I want to play with to improve my barrel fitting and chambering skills. Certainly the common old time rounds Winchester offered in the low-wall rifles can work, but I am wondering outside the box.
Where is the limit on this. My shooting partner chambered a low-wall in 40-65 for BPCR matches.
Ron Long gave his blessing on it being a safe combination before work began.
It worked well.

I am not looking for trouble, just the opposite. I would like to know where the limits are.      

Give me our thoughts - some science or logic is good.
Seat of the paints wisdom like "Ron Long said it is Okay" is fine but that is no substitute for learning how to evaluate on our own.
-CW
« Last Edit: Feb 11th, 2019 at 9:39pm by CW »  
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frnkeore
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #26 - Feb 11th, 2019 at 8:51pm
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I don't know where I read it but, many years ago, it was said that a safe limit on head size for any given thread diameter, was 1/2 the diameter of the thread. I feel that's safe and stay within in that perimeter.

Bolt thrust is a different matter though and action strength in that area, can vary a LOT. You'll find people on this forum that have seen LW's crack and say the action should only be used on the smallest CF's at BP pressure. I'm not one of them though.

My LW came to me in 357 Mag, with a rebored Original 28", Win, 32 Long barrel on it. I bought it in about 1988 and had it reamed to 357 Max (I call it 38 XL). I didn't know that some considered it dangerous to do that, after all it was a Winchester and a variant of the HW! Who would know it was danerous before this forum, came to be. Frank DeHaas said it was safe for the 357 Mag, why wouldn't it be for the 357 Max?

I shot a lot of 208 gr bullets at 1400+ fps using #9 powder. I went on to shoot a 150 gr GC bullet at 2300 fps and a GC 208 gr at almost 1900 fps, with the same powder. Who was I to know it wasn't safe?

The 1400 fps load is probably in the 25K pressure range but the other two are in the 40K+ range, with that powder.

I've proof tested my action, I would say Smiley

All that said, I don't think I'd go to the .457 case head of the 40/xx SS case though.

I think a one in good condition is ok with a 32/40 in PB lead loads.

Frank
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #27 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 10:42am
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Funny what we do before we know we're not supposed to do it! I had a Low Wall that was a flat side with a .32-40 false muzzle barrel on it. Shot the heck out of it, and never a problem with smokeless loads in the 1350 fps range and 170-190 gr. bullets.
I later had someone tell me it was "dangerous" and I should remove the barrel and part it out. I sold it to a guy who said he didn't care what anyone said, he was going to shoot it just as it was.
  

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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #28 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 6:00pm
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marlinguy wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 10:42am:

I later had someone tell me it was "dangerous" and I should remove the barrel and part it out. I sold it to a guy who said he didn't care what anyone said, he was going to shoot it just as it was.


Did he shoot it a lot?
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Winchester proof pressures
Reply #29 - Feb 12th, 2019 at 6:53pm
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Schuetzenmiester wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 6:00pm:
marlinguy wrote on Feb 12th, 2019 at 10:42am:

I later had someone tell me it was "dangerous" and I should remove the barrel and part it out. I sold it to a guy who said he didn't care what anyone said, he was going to shoot it just as it was.


Did he shoot it a lot?


As far as I know he did, but mostly with fixed cartridges, not the false muzzle.
But I've got a cast receiver Ballard that's chambered in .32-40 also. It's such a cool gun I never wanted to sell it. I'd never do the same thing, but I've shot it for years with mild loads and never was worried about it with those loads. Guy I bought it from was breech seating it, so I've always breech seated it too.
  

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